Peculiar New Issue ... maybe HDMI related

[TLS Guy]

OK here is some info from HDMI.org. Under my agreement with HDMI, I am not allowed to republish the spec in detail. But this is from their public information.

Beware products that draw power from the +5V power line. Although these may work in certain applications, different components draw varying amount of power from that line to communicate with each other. A cable that draws power from the HDMI cable may fail when components and the active components in the cable or external booster are all drawing from the same source.

An HDMI device that has active electronics should have a provision for external power in order to be compliant (e.g. a receptacle to allow the use of a standard power adapter, sometimes called a power “brick”). Here we are drawing a distinction between “active” devices that actually have some powered electronics, and “passive” devices, such as some switches (more on those later).
Some active devices, such as actively powered HDMI cables or in-line signal extender boxes, will by default attempt to power their electronics by taking power from the 5V line (+5V power) available on the HDMI connector. The HDMI specification requires all source devices to provide at least 55mA (milliamps) on the 5V line for the purpose of reading the EDID of a display. While 55mA is not enough current to operate most HDMI accessory devices (which typically require about 100 to 150mA), most source devices on the market today provide significantly more current on the 5V line than the HDMI specification requires. As a result, the vast majority of accessory devices can operate when interfaced with a source device that provides more than the required current (i.e. over 100-150mA) on the 5V line. However, manufacturers should provide a provision for their powered HDMI accessory devices to obtain external power, and consumers are encouraged to look for this external power provision when purchasing such products.
Looking to the future, not all HDMI devices may provide this much power over the 5V line. For example, as HDMI expands into more and more portable applications (cameras, camcorders, laptops, etc.), power consumption is often much more of an issue, and such devices may not power the 5V line with the > 100mA required by such “active” devices. Again, consumers should consider ensuring that their active HDMI accessory device purchases have a provision for external power for this reason.

So it concedes that some ports may be able to supply up to 150 MA. However just because a port can provide more than the 55 MA HDMI spec, you can not assume it is designed to do so.

My view of this, is that until manufacturers are prepared to quote the safe power draw from their HDMI ports, then active cables without their own power source should not be used. That is essentially what HDMI.org are saying. That is the take home from all this.

 

[itschris]

I screwed around some more last night because I just couldn't take it. Here's some additional info. Redmere was hooked up to my cable box (source) to my TV. It was the only Redmere. Everything seemingly worked fine worked fine. If I added any Redmere from any source to the receiver (which I considered the TV side) I had immediate issues when the receiver was on. Any button on any controller caused the screen to blank out. I did notice two three times the NOT SUPPORTED message flash briefly on the receiver. Any combo of sources caused the issues withe Redmere cables. Clearly my Pioneer is a key suspect. It's just bizarre that using the Mits controller direct on the tv would still flip out the system. Just pressing menu ...any button... Caused the issue. Turn off the Pio, no issues. P

Just really weird. I'm still thinking I may have changed something by mistake on the receiver when I was changing and updating inputs when I added the HTPC. I Remember that I was having this screen issue problem then and I was having to use the small window on the Pio (which responded real time to the remote) while the TV was constantly blanking out. I wonder if I accidentally changed some sort of HDMI setting somewhere. I don't think so, but there were times when I was just really frustrated and was hurrying through things.

 

[Adam]

Well you had better hope that your ports are designed for a 75 MA current draw. It may work, but you may well be putting your gear at serious risk of failure.

I'm not giving it a second thought. They work on multiple components, they have worked on multiple components for months, and I'm not going to worry about it. That's not meant to sound rude - I'm just saying that I have zero stress about using these cables.

Perhaps Chris' Pioneer really can't handle those cables, but I still think it might be a settings issue. That happens here a lot more than an actual hardware fault.

 

[Alex2507]

Alright, now I'm interested.

Chris, does switching back to your old cables fix the problem?

Maybe you need a bigger amp. j/k

 

[Adam]

Chris, does switching back to your old cables fix the problem?

Look up.

He said that did fix it.

 

[Alex2507]

Look up.

He said that did fix it.

I may need you to high light that part.

Bottom line is that I'm glad I got BJC taking care of my HDMI needs.

 

[TLS Guy]

I screwed around some more last night because I just couldn't take it. Here's some additional info. Redmere was hooked up to my cable box (source) to my TV. It was the only Redmere. Everything seemingly worked fine worked fine. If I added any Redmere from any source to the receiver (which I considered the TV side) I had immediate issues when the receiver was on. Any button on any controller caused the screen to blank out. I did notice two three times the NOT SUPPORTED message flash briefly on the receiver. Any combo of sources caused the issues withe Redmere cables. Clearly my Pioneer is a key suspect. It's just bizarre that using the Mits controller direct on the tv would still flip out the system. Just pressing menu ...any button... Caused the issue. Turn off the Pio, no issues. P

Just really weird. I'm still thinking I may have changed something by mistake on the receiver when I was changing and updating inputs when I added the HTPC. I Remember that I was having this screen issue problem then and I was having to use the small window on the Pio (which responded real time to the remote) while the TV was constantly blanking out. I wonder if I accidentally changed some sort of HDMI setting somewhere. I don't think so, but there were times when I was just really frustrated and was hurrying through things.

It is not weird. This last post proves the point. There is only one logical explanation for what you are experiencing. Your receiver can not provide enough current to one Redmere cable and so the voltage is dropping from everything in the receiver supplied by the regulator that supplies the 5 volts on the HDMI ports. That is pin 18 and this is from the official HDMI specs: - Pin 18 +5 V (max 0.05 Amp). Further you will see from what I have posted already, since those cables do not provide for and external source of power and draw more than 50 MA, Redmere cables are not HDMI compliant.

So you can not fault your receiver for not working with non compliant HDMI cables. In fact if you persist with trying to use them, you will almost certainly damage your receiver.

Even if you buy a new receiver you may still have the problem as the receiver will be HDMI compliant, (they all are) and still not drive those non compliant cables.

So your solution is to return the Redmere cables, as they don't work for you because they are non compliant, by the definition of HDMI.org. Then purchase the slim passive cables recommended by BMXTRIX from Parts Xpress.

You have provided enough information now, that I can be certain those will do the job for you.

You need to stop stressing that +5volt circuit in your receiver now, unless you have an itch for a new receiver.

 

[sawzalot]

I just wonder if redmere took into account that we HT enthusiasts will run four or five cables to our AVR then one to the TV from the AVR, I mean these cables clearly state that one end is for source and one end is for TV. Chris out of curiosity try this, one older style cable from cable box to AVR then go one redmere from AVR to the TV, I have it that way and mine works to an extent, ( I will $hitcan the redmeres all together today) I am still having my issues too but I am curious for your setup.

 

[Adam]

I just wonder if redmere took into account that we HT enthusiasts will run four or five cables to our AVR then one to the TV from the AVR...

I have four running to my AVR and two running from it to my TV.

Chris, do you have HDMI control turned on? If so, try turning that off. It shouldn't matter, but I have some recollection of reading about that and the Redmere cables a while back (but I don't see it on the Monoprice site).

 

[itschris]

I just wonder if redmere took into account that we HT enthusiasts will run four or five cables to our AVR then one to the TV from the AVR, I mean these cables clearly state that one end is for source and one end is for TV. Chris out of curiosity try this, one older style cable from cable box to AVR then go one redmere from AVR to the TV, I have it that way and mine works to an extent, ( I will $hitcan the redmeres all together today) I am still having my issues too but I am curious for your setup.

The cable box goes directly to the TV and I have Optical back out to the AVR for playing the TV through the system if need be. I tried pretty much any combination that would be in my setup and it caused the issue. I even just had all normal HDMI's and a Redmere hooked from the Apple TV to the AVR and still had the issue.

I just got an email back from Pioneer after telling them about the problem. This is what they suggested:

Thank you for contacting Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc.

Press Receiver, then Setup on the remote.
Select System Setup and press Enter.
Select Other Setup and press Enter.
Select HDMI Control Setup and press Enter.
Set Control to off.


Sincerely,


Luana
Customer Service Representative</SPAN></SPAN>

I know what they are talking about, but I'm pretty sure that is set correctly. I'm gonna double check tonight just to eliminate any and all possible setup issues. I imagine though, if that was setup wrong or I changed it somehow, the standard cables would have issues too. We'll see.

 

[itschris]

I have four running to my AVR and two running from it to my TV.

Chris, do you have HDMI control turned on? If so, try turning that off. It shouldn't matter, but I have some recollection of reading about that and the Redmere cables a while back (but I don't see it on the Monoprice site).

You read my mind... That's the setting I have been trying to remember. Actually, noted in the post above... I got that suggestion from Pioneer this morning. Im sure it's off, otherwise, nothing should work, but Im going to double check.

 

[itschris]

@TLS - I agree with you whole-heartedly. I'm set to order those Parts Express cables. I thought I did it yesterday, but never actually checked out.

Once those show... I'll literally have 20 HDMI cables laying around. I wonder if Monoprice will take them back. I'm gonna give them a shout today.

 

[BMXTRIX]

My first guess on all of this is that since Redmere is an active technology that gets the power from the HDMI port itself, they are likely having a power mismatch between the HDMI port and the Redmere transceiver. What occurs, in the world of HDMI, once you are introducing something outside of 'spec' is where HDMI falls apart in extremely unpredictable manners.

I was not aware that Redmere was pulling more power than the HDMI spec required, and that's a huge deal IMO and one of the reasons I shy away from Redmere cables. The only Redmere I use is a 15' cable I keep in my computer bag for testing, and I know my PC works with it nicely. But, it doen't always work when connected to my iPhone. I also carry a couple of the Parts Express cables with me, and they work all the time.

Now, does it make sense to buy BJC cables? Heck! I don't care. Really, I say things like "you should always use" - but that should read "I will always use". There are tons of very good HDMI cables on the market that work well and make a ton of sense. BJC is a top shelf company that I strongly support for their long standing business practices and quality of product. Monoprice premium cables are nice as well. For LONG runs, I always use the passive 22AWG (garden hose) models and have great luck with 1080p at 75'.

But, HDMI is still a quirky thing, and the more advanced the setups are, the worse HDMI can be. Throw in HDBaseT and things get even worse. I know for a fact that while we have tested cables to pass on our HDMI tester ($10,000 unit), still fail when actually in use, when other cables work.

If you want real reliability, try component video.

 

[itschris]

It's funny you say that because the first thing I do when I get home is I'm going to hook my cable box back up via Component. HDMI is just too slow at syncing on HD channels and it takes a second and the screen sorda flashes. Its annoying. Smooth sailing with the components on that part of the system.

Seriously, the only reason I bought the Redmeres was because they were thin and flexible. I found them by accident and they just happened to be what I was looking for style-wise on the re-wire of my cabinet. I had no idea the technology itself would impact my setup in any way. I just thought they looked nice... and we all know I love cables.

 

[BMXTRIX]

My entire system is based on component still. I'm working towards HDMI, but it will take some effort and cost to do right with my distributed A/V setup. But, when I'm done, it will all be with the Parts Express cables (or similar).

For now though, component HD looks great and my only real required HDMI sources is the 3D Blu-ray player which I run over HDBT and can switch between the projector and the TV in the family room if I need to.

 

[panteragstk]

I'll add this. I have a 50' Redmere cable that works without issue. I haven't put it in place yet, but in testing it acted just like any of my other HDMI cables. I got it to run from my big gaming rig to my HT room. I'll hook it to my receiver later to see what happens.

 

[TLS Guy]

My first guess on all of this is that since Redmere is an active technology that gets the power from the HDMI port itself, they are likely having a power mismatch between the HDMI port and the Redmere transceiver. What occurs, in the world of HDMI, once you are introducing something outside of 'spec' is where HDMI falls apart in extremely unpredictable manners.

I was not aware that Redmere was pulling more power than the HDMI spec required, and that's a huge deal IMO and one of the reasons I shy away from Redmere cables. The only Redmere I use is a 15' cable I keep in my computer bag for testing, and I know my PC works with it nicely. But, it doen't always work when connected to my iPhone. I also carry a couple of the Parts Express cables with me, and they work all the time.

Now, does it make sense to buy BJC cables? Heck! I don't care. Really, I say things like "you should always use" - but that should read "I will always use". There are tons of very good HDMI cables on the market that work well and make a ton of sense. BJC is a top shelf company that I strongly support for their long standing business practices and quality of product. Monoprice premium cables are nice as well. For LONG runs, I always use the passive 22AWG (garden hose) models and have great luck with 1080p at 75'.

But, HDMI is still a quirky thing, and the more advanced the setups are, the worse HDMI can be. Throw in HDBaseT and things get even worse. I know for a fact that while we have tested cables to pass on our HDMI tester ($10,000 unit), still fail when actually in use, when other cables work.

If you want real reliability, try component video.

I agree with everything you have to say above. Just a couple of comments.

HDMI refer to that +5 out on pin 18 as a switching voltage. They never intended it to be a powering voltage. In concept that is a huge issue. The fact that some devices seem to be able to power an IC in Redmere cables is neither here or there. If they want to produce and market those cables, then this issue should be clearly noted in the packaging and advertizing. In other words Chris should have known right away what his problem was. The fact that he did not, in my view is absolute evidence of a deceptive trade practice, and in my view not ethical.

The other issue is your cable tester. I'm not surprised that results vary. The whole issue with any digital transmission, especially by wire, is that is is very delicately balanced. From port, though cable to port, an electrical transmission line is created. So small differences in source, cable and termination impedances have a big impact on information packet flow. The next variable is the error correction capability of the devices themselves. In other words if the packets arrive on time and in correct order, within the capabilities of the error correction, bliss. If one of those issues goes out of bounds, even for a nano second, then misery.

To an old geezer like me, it is hard to take off the analog hat. However I have now come to accept the fact that in sending a digital signal down wire, has only one thing in common with an analog signal, and that is movement of electrons. Everything else is a different ball came and we have to leave our old concepts at the door.

My son has given me huge insight into how complex this all is, and he has had to teach himself theoretical particle physics and the math to go with it, to properly design circuits that transport digital data. That was over and above his electrical engineering degree.

This has been one of the most important threads we have had for a long time. As always, when things don't go well, you learn a lot more than when things go right!

 

[itschris]

I agree with you. We should make some sort of STICKY on Redmere cables at least noting the potential for issues. I mean hell, I spend a couple hundred dollars on these. I think just double checking the HDMI setting on my receiver... just to make sure it didn't change somehow... will be the final nail.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I'll add this. I have a 50' Redmere cable that works without issue. I haven't put it in place yet, but in testing it acted just like any of my other HDMI cables. I got it to run from my big gaming rig to my HT room. I'll hook it to my receiver later to see what happens.

Redmere cables should NEVER be buried behind walls without access. That's my only statement on them. My experience with them has been stellar, and for the size to distance capabilities you get, they are an awesome product as long as they work. My 15' version is just great, and works perfectly with my laptop. But, I'm not putting it behind a wall. I actually think I may have used a few on installations where I've had to go behind a wall to a TV, but it was a simple up/down run which allows me to replace the cable if necessary.

Monoprice reviews hits the issue in full. It is the active nature of the cables and the very tenuous thread on which they utilize for performance. If you have a device that is over/under on voltage, the Redmere electronics can fail. From what I have read, and learned, it seems like it is often a 'works' or 'doesn't work' scenario for many. Or often a 'works for a while'. But, it is rarely intermittent. What people find is that they connect the Redmere cable and it works for a month or two, then fails completely. They replace it, and the same thing happens. My guess is that their equipment is providing uneven, or higher than expected voltage to the Redmere electronics and it burns it out. So, it works for a bit, then fails. Other people have lower than typical HDMI voltage and the cable just never works.

For most people, in most standard situations, with brand new gear, Redmere will work fine. Not just fine, but great. It will be the perfect product for their setup.

Still... I wouldn't run it behind a wall without access. Also, they aren't clearly CL2 rated cables from Monoprice at this time.

 

[panteragstk]

Redmere cables should NEVER be buried behind walls without access. That's my only statement on them. My experience with them has been stellar, and for the size to distance capabilities you get, they are an awesome product as long as they work. My 15' version is just great, and works perfectly with my laptop. But, I'm not putting it behind a wall. I actually think I may have used a few on installations where I've had to go behind a wall to a TV, but it was a simple up/down run which allows me to replace the cable if necessary.

Monoprice reviews hits the issue in full. It is the active nature of the cables and the very tenuous thread on which they utilize for performance. If you have a device that is over/under on voltage, the Redmere electronics can fail. From what I have read, and learned, it seems like it is often a 'works' or 'doesn't work' scenario for many. Or often a 'works for a while'. But, it is rarely intermittent. What people find is that they connect the Redmere cable and it works for a month or two, then fails completely. They replace it, and the same thing happens. My guess is that their equipment is providing uneven, or higher than expected voltage to the Redmere electronics and it burns it out. So, it works for a bit, then fails. Other people have lower than typical HDMI voltage and the cable just never works.

For most people, in most standard situations, with brand new gear, Redmere will work fine. Not just fine, but great. It will be the perfect product for their setup.

Still... I wouldn't run it behind a wall without access. Also, they aren't clearly CL2 rated cables from Monoprice at this time.

Trust me, they won't be buried. Very easy access to the cable once it is run.

From monoprice: "The VW-1 rating on this cable indicates that it complies with fire safety codes and insurance requirements and is safe for use inside the walls of residential class buildings."

50ft Slim Series High Speed HDMI® Cable w/ RedMere® Technology - Monoprice.com