Peculiar New Issue ... maybe HDMI related

[panteragstk]

So, time for an education. Is the cable drawing from the receiver or the source? Also, mhl-hdmi ports can supply up to 500ma. I say the same saying above 55ma would need external power.

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[TLS Guy]

So, time for an education. Is the cable drawing from the receiver or the source? Also, mhl-hdmi ports can supply up to 500ma. I say the same saying above 55ma would need external power.

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The cable is powered at the sink end. So the cables from peripherals are powered by the receiver, but the cable going from receiver to TV is powered by the TV.

So you need to know the power available from pin 18 of the TV also.

50 MA is very little power and I don't think there is a chip around that can be powered by that.

50 MA is the HDMI spec, but there is nothing to stop a manufacturer exceeding the spec, and obviously a lot do.

To help resolve this mess cable manufacturers need to specify the current draw and device manufacturers need to specify the safe current draw.

 

[panteragstk]

Here is a bit more info into the Redmere cables. Thread is similar to ours.

Monoprice RedMere HDMI cables general discussion - AnandTech Forums

 

[TLS Guy]

Here is a bit more info into the Redmere cables. Thread is similar to ours.

Monoprice RedMere HDMI cables general discussion - AnandTech Forums

Yes, and Monoprice claim the chip does not get its power solely from the +5 voltage pin. Well that is the only one with a voltage on it, and so it is the only place it can come from. That is like all other magic cable claims. That post from Monoprice has to be total BS. I have lost confidence in Monoprice now and will no longer recommend them.

 

[ahblaza]

What is considered a long run of a HDMI cable, anything over 25'? I know that Belden cables used by BJC are desighed for longer runs but are very stiff and difficult to route, they claim no signal loss of a 1080p signal through 125' cable, a footnote tho is that this depends on the sending and receiving circuits of the devices in use. I think that the Redmere cable being active just would complicate this matter further, it may not be evident right away but down the road with extended use I would not take this chance. Adding an active circuit to another active circuit just seems like a recipe for failure, just MO. The external PS seems logical to me.
Cheers Jeff

 

[TLS Guy]

What is considered a long run of a HDMI cable, anything over 25'? I know that Belden cables used by BJC are desighed for longer runs but are very stiff and difficult to route, they claim no signal loss of a 1080p signal through 125' cable, a footnote tho is that this depends on the sending and receiving circuits of the devices in use. I think that the Redmere cable being active just would complicate this matter further, it may not be evident right away but down the road with extended use I would not take this chance. Adding an active circuit to another active circuit just seems like a recipe for failure, just MO. The external PS seems logical to me.
Cheers Jeff

Jeff, if you take a look at this guidance from the CEDIA technology council, that I have already posted in this thread, it answers your question.

CEDIA are an excellent and highly respected professional organization.

Look in particular at the cliff effect and you will understand the problem of long cables.

 

[ahblaza]

© 2011 CEDIA • 7150 Winton Drive • Suite 300 • Indianapolis, IN 46268 • Tel: 800.669.5329 or 317.328.4336 • CEDIA | Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association
Document Scope
Distribution Best Practices
HDMI Installation Best Practices is the third document in a series of whitepapers published by CEDIA. Previous
documents include Introduction to HDMI and HDMI Initialization Sequence. These documents are available in
the CEDIA Marketplace at www.cedia.org/marketplace. This document discusses best installation practices in dis
-
tribution such as active cables, HDMI, Cat 5/6, and fiber solutions, as well as basic HDMI tests and interoperability.
o
Long-Haul Cables
Before we start to discuss best practices for long-haul cabling, it is important to know how digital video
signals are affected over long cable lengths. As cable length increases, image quality (signal integrity) is
perceived to be perfect until a certain length. Beyond that length, the image either degrades in quality
(flashing, sparkly dropouts and/or loss of sync) or disappears all together. This is known as the “cliff
effect”
[9]
. This is depicted in Figure 1 below.
o
Inter/Intra-Pair Skew
HDMI uses twisted pair cables, which are subject to two types of skews that can create timing errors and
cause data drop-outs. The two types of skew are intra-pair skew and inter-pair skew. Intra-pair skew is the
time differential between the two wires making up itself, while inter-pair skew is the time differential
between separate twisted pair lines in the cable assembly
[13]
. Total allowable intra-pair skew is only
about 4.8 picoseconds, and inter-pair skew should not exceed 7.2 nanoseconds
[13]
. Because of these
small tolerances, HDMI cable construction is of important significance to installers. Some attributes to pay
attention to include the cable gauge, cable material, and its impedance. Since allowable skew is fixed
and the percentage error in cables (normally measured per meter) is constant, longer cables are more
difficult to manufacture. Also, it is worth noting that cabling is a component of the overall system and
one has to take into account the percent error between all source and sync devices including any
switches, splitters or matrix devices.
Even before the cable length reaches the “cliff”, data errors are already occurring in transmission. The
reason we don’t see the errors is because there is a built-in error correction technology used in digital
transmission. The picture will still be perfect as long as the error rate is below the threshold. The
signal recovery mechanism will fail once it exceeds the capability of the display


I guess this says it all, it may work for awhile but inevitably it will fail with continued use. Thank you for this informative knowledge Mark, it really helps me to understand how critical HDMI characteristics have to all work in tandem with all devices they are used with.
Cheers Jeff

 

[BMXTRIX]

I guess I'm just going to ask... Where are we getting the 50mA number and where did the 75mA number come from? Redmere has a white paper on this, and they speak directly to the discussion at hand.

FROM: http://redmere.com/download.php?file=102

Power Requirements of Active Equalization​

A further challenge in supplying any kind of equalization is delivering power to theequalization circuit. HDMI only allows for 5mA current consumption from its 5V powersupply. This 5mA limit makes it difficult to deliver effective equalization solutions forany useful range of cable structures, thicknesses, lengths and speeds.

With this limitation in mind, power can be harvested from the sink device, e.g. TV ormonitor, through the output driver of the equalizer circuit. This power supply is then usedto supply the equalizer and subsequent circuits needed to drive the data through theoutput driver. Another aid in dealing with low power is to use small circuit devices. Theusual limitation with this approach is that matching in these small devices deteriorates,which in itself would severely limit the performance of the channel. This problem isremoved however with advanced silicon design techniques in the design of these circuits.With these power-related additions, no external power supply is required for theequalization and the 5mA HDMI limit is adhered to with the active equalizer. Thisensures that the approach does not violate the standards compliance requirements of the HDMI standard.​

Then I read stuff like this in regards to HDMI 1.3a standards:
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva412a/snva412a.pdf

Which says that the current must be 55mA, not 50 or 5... With the TI chip providing 180mA. Geez, this is not exactly cut and dry to get information on.

Oh, and it says: A SHOURCE SHALL PROVIDE VOLTAGE - So power comes from the source, not the sink. The sink may draw power, but pin 18 of the source is what provides it. While the Redmere cables need power on the sink end, it draws that power from the source apparently.

 

[highfigh]

There's not a "One cable fits all", unless you use something that's rated for 4K, ethernet, yada, yada, yada.

You changed all of your cables? Try one of the old ones between the receiver and the TV. If it works, you know where the problem lies.

HDMI has a very small window for the "handshake" voltage. It starts at 5V and the low limit, over any length is 4.7V. Not much tolerance.

Make sure the cables are fully inserted. I have seen the menu graphics of various devices look fine, but the video was just a pink screen once the show started. In all cases, the HDMI wasn't fully inserted.

I hate HDMI.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Wow, maybe I'm just fortunate, but I've never had an HDMI cable-related problem with my HT - knock on wood. *Taps own skull*

All of my cables are basic Monoprice passive 22AWG and stiffer than Alex at the Twister Regional championship. The one running to my projector is 25' and the picture is perfect. I suppose the lesson here is if a passive cable works, don't tempt fate by going active.

 

[Adam]

Wow, maybe I'm just fortunate, but I've never had an HDMI cable-related problem with my HT - knock on wood.

Me, too. My home theater, my computer setup...never a problem.

 

[itschris]

Well... it looks like this issue has raised its ugly head again. Last night, I was watching tv off of airplay and i went to turn the volume up (I had it playing through the system) and BAM! I pushed the volume button, the TV, everything blanked out for a 2 or 3 seconds and then came back on. It's like the whole signal resets. The little window on the TV that id's the input came up, just like when you first turn on the TV or when you do actually change inputs.

It seemed the problem was gone when I got rid of the Redmere cables. I replaced them with the thin version cables from Parts Direct. I'm now wondering if there's just something about thin HDMI cable in general. Maybe my TV just has weird handshake issues... maybe there's something wrong with the Pio. When I get a chance, I guess I'm just going to go back to normal HDMI cables again and see what happens. None of this ever happened before I initially switched to the Redmeres and then to the thin non-Redmere HDMI. There's gotta be something to it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well... it looks like this issue has raised its ugly head again. Last night, I was watching tv off of airplay and i went to turn the volume up (I had it playing through the system) and BAM! I pushed the volume button, the TV, everything blanked out for a 2 or 3 seconds and then came back on. It's like the whole signal resets. The little window on the TV that id's the input came up, just like when you first turn on the TV or when you do actually change inputs. It seemed the problem was gone when I got rid of the Redmere cables. I replaced them with the thin version cables from Parts Direct. I'm now wondering if there's just something about thin HDMI cable in general. Maybe my TV just has weird handshake issues... maybe there's something wrong with the Pio. When I get a chance, I guess I'm just going to go back to normal HDMI cables again and see what happens. None of this ever happened before I initially switched to the Redmeres and then to the thin non-Redmere HDMI. There's gotta be something to it.

Have you done a receiver reset? If not, I recommend it. It could be that drawing power from HDMI ports may have damaged the HDMI board in your receiver and or TV.

 

[itschris]

Have you done a receiver reset? If not, I recommend it. It could be that drawing power from HDMI ports may have damaged the HDMI board in your receiver and or TV.

Do all receivers have a way to do that? Does that mean I'd just have to redo all my inputs again? Not a big deal I guess. I just ordered all new HDMI cables from Blue Jean... just normal ones. I'm pretty damn sure that when I got rid of the Redmere's and put my old fat stiff hdmi cables back into the system, everything worked fine. I haven't used my system a bunch since putting in the new thin Part Express non-Redmere's, but I could've swore it was okay. I think I would have noticed or maybe because I was using my new HTPC a lot, it wasn't affecting things. I don't know. It's really frustrating. Even when I go to the Apple TV menu, if i use the apple controller or the Harmony, every button touch creates the issue. It's very bizarre. I'm also wondering if its my TV. The Mits DLP was never really good at handshaking. I don't know. I think the first thing to try is swapping all the cables. What a pain in the ***.

 

[TLS Guy]

Do all receivers have a way to do that? Does that mean I'd just have to redo all my inputs again? Not a big deal I guess. I just ordered all new HDMI cables from Blue Jean... just normal ones. I'm pretty damn sure that when I got rid of the Redmere's and put my old fat stiff hdmi cables back into the system, everything worked fine. I haven't used my system a bunch since putting in the new thin Part Express non-Redmere's, but I could've swore it was okay. I think I would have noticed or maybe because I was using my new HTPC a lot, it wasn't affecting things. I don't know. It's really frustrating. Even when I go to the Apple TV menu, if i use the apple controller or the Harmony, every button touch creates the issue. It's very bizarre. I'm also wondering if its my TV. The Mits DLP was never really good at handshaking. I don't know. I think the first thing to try is swapping all the cables. What a pain in the ***.

Yes, all receivers can be reset. You will have to do your set up again. That is a older TV and the older the unit, the more likely to be damaged by powered cables. Until devices became available that took so little power, no one thought of taking power from an HDMI port and it is still not recommended by the HDMI consortium. My son who designs semiconductor chips, says the whole focus of design has now switched from speed to power draw. This is quite a recent change. This is how you reset that receiver:- Resetting the system Use this procedure to reset all the receiver’s settings to the factory default. Use the front panel controls to do this. 1 Switch the receiver into standby. 2 While holding down theS E TU P button on the front panel, pressSTANDBY/ON. The display shows RESET NO. 3 Press theENTER button on the front panel. 4 Select RESET using left /right arrows, then press theEN TE R button on the front panel. The display shows RESET? OK. 5 PressEN TE R to confirm. OK appears in the display to indicate that the receiver has been reset to the factory default settings.

 

[itschris]

Thanks TLS... I'll try the cable switch first, then if I still run into issues I'll reset. Setting it up is not a big deal really... UNLESS the problem continues afterwards and every button I press causes the screen to blank out. That would be an unbelievably brutal exercise with having to name inputs and all that. I'd probably disconnect everything and throw the PIO in the pool at that point rather than have to deal with that. Also to consider, if I were to start from scratch, I'd probably do things differently. I didn't really know what I was doing when I set it up initially a several years ago. I was and still am confused by how the inputs on that thing are organized. HDMI 1-4 are actually named outputs: HDMI 1, 2... etc. However each other input like CD for instance, can use HDMI 1-4. It's just odd... never really got that, but I digress. Also, because I'd set it up different... my new Harmony remote would be worthless and need to be redone as well.

Hopefully it's just something with the thin HDMI's. Fingers are crossed, but I feel it's doubtful. I've been working 12 hour days lately along with an additional 2 hours total commute so I haven't felt much like dealing with this nonesense. Maybe this weekend if i'm not here in the office.

 

[cpp]

Thanks TLS... I'll try the cable switch first, then if I still run into issues I'll reset. Setting it up is not a big deal really... UNLESS the problem continues afterwards and every button I press causes the screen to blank out. That would be an unbelievably brutal exercise with having to name inputs and all that. I'd probably disconnect everything and throw the PIO in the pool at that point rather than have to deal with that. Also to consider, if I were to start from scratch, I'd probably do things differently. I didn't really know what I was doing when I set it up initially a several years ago. I was and still am confused by how the inputs on that thing are organized. HDMI 1-4 are actually named outputs: HDMI 1, 2... etc. However each other input like CD for instance, can use HDMI 1-4. It's just odd... never really got that, but I digress. Also, because I'd set it up different... my new Harmony remote would be worthless and need to be redone as well.

Hopefully it's just something with the thin HDMI's. Fingers are crossed, but I feel it's doubtful. I've been working 12 hour days lately along with an additional 2 hours total commute so I haven't felt much like dealing with this nonesense. Maybe this weekend if i'm not here in the office.

Chris, by chance do you use Brighthouse as a cable provider. I'm having some nutty things with cut outs, frame freezes etc and I know it's not my AVR, or TV, or cables.. It's their freaking box.

 

[itschris]

We got switched over to WOW from Knology. I used to thing knology was bad. WOW is an absolute disaster. Our board is getting read to file suit against them because our PQ is so bad and has been for 6 months with no change. It's like watching bad YouTube videos. The neighborhood is contracted with them and we pay with our HOA fees. it's horrible

 

[sawzalot]

We got switched over to WOW from Knology. I used to thing knology was bad. WOW is an absolute disaster. Our board is getting read to file suit against them because our PQ is so bad and has been for 6 months with no change. It's like watching bad YouTube videos. The neighborhood is contracted with them and we pay with our HOA fees. it's horrible

Hey Chris, I think before you switch out all the HDMI cables maybe try the AVR reset and remove anything cable TV related from the set up then try the oppo, see where that goes. Maybe , just maybe it could be the cable box. I had a few issues and swapped out my motorola HD box and problem solved.

 

[itschris]

Hey Chris, I think before you switch out all the HDMI cables maybe try the AVR reset and remove anything cable TV related from the set up then try the oppo, see where that goes. Maybe , just maybe it could be the cable box. I had a few issues and swapped out my motorola HD box and problem solved.

It doesn't matter what function I'm doing. If the receiver is on... for blu-ray, for piping music through the AppleTV which is connected to the receiver... no matter what... any button I press... even the button on the APTV remote to change menu items, causes the total re-sync of the HDMI... tv goes blank, comes back on 2 seconds later like you just switched inputs or something.