Peculiar New Issue ... maybe HDMI related

[itschris]

A couple of weeks ago, I re-wired a good portion of my system with Redmere HDMI cables from Monoprice. My reciever is hooked up HDMI out to the TV. Cable is going in the correct direction. Now when I'm running the system, if I use my Pioneer remote to change the volume or actually do anything on the remote... it cause the TV to blank out for a few seconds. You see the little input dialog box pop up and the the screen comes back on.

It happens on every push of a remote button. What could that be?

 

[itschris]

What the Hell!

Update: I just got home and started messing with it. Any button i press on the Pio remote blanks the screen similar to when you switch inputs. I took my cable box controller and adjusted the volume... same thing. I took the Mitsubishi controller... any button same thing. If I change the volume or select a different button directly on the receiver... everything is fine.

This is all happening when i have the receiver on. When I have just the cable and TV on... no issues. What gives?

 

[Ponzio]

Silly question. Do you have a spare AVR or non-RedMere HDMI cable for testing purposes? While I bought 2 pairs of Monoprice RedMere HDMI cables and they worked flawlessly with my Yamaha AVR, Sony TV & Samsung Bluray player I found the directional aspect limiting when it came to toggling between the components. I ended up buying two 25' BJC HDMI cables that were more to my liking and offered more flexibility, even if I had to wrestle with it ... thick bugger ... and spent about 3 times as much and that was a pre-owned purchase on eBay.

 

[Adam]

Wow, this thread seems way too old for TLS to not have posted already that it's because HDMI is the spawn of the devil.

Chris, that is...for lack of a better word...bizarre. Makes me wonder if you reset something to due with the Pioneer's OSD and/or other video settings when you had it unplugged. You can check that, but I'd also swap out the HDMI cable going from the receiver to the TV with one of your older ones to check. Heck, worth a try. With all of your rewiring, it might be something else, but that's a good place to start, IMO.

Question - when you say that you also used the cable box controller and Mitsubishi controller, were you controlling something on the receiver or on those units (I ask because you talked about adjusting the volume using the cable box controller)?

EDIT: I see that as I was checking the manual for the video settings, Ponzio posted about trying another cable, too. Seems like a plan. "I changed this and now it doesn't work." "Ummm, change it back."

 

[Ponzio]

"I changed this and now it doesn't work." "Ummm, change it back."

When I was a installation telecom tech we called that the "bread crumb method" of troubleshooting. Basically keep going back and undo your handiwork, one at a time and test, till the problem is discovered.

Or you can start from scratch; TV HDMI 1 out to AVR HDMI 1 in, test, DVD HDMI out to AVR HDMI 2, test .... etc.

Both methods are a pain in the a$$, especially if you don't remember the order of installation in the "bread crumb" method, at which point I would start from scratch.

Good luck Chris.

 

[Nestor]

Check your power cables. They might be loose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[itschris]

I did some more troubleshooting. I switch the input on the Pio to AppleTV which obviously uses the same HDMI out to the TV. Same thing... if I hit any button on the remote, the TV blanks the sound stops and sits for 2 seconds and then the TV input box pops up followed by the picture and sound again. All of this takes about 5 seconds.

Adam... when the receiver is on... it seems like any remote i use causes this same issue. When the receiver is on, I normally use the Pio remote for volume. But just checking things out, I tried using the mits remote just to see what happens... and when I do... just like the Pio remote... any button I press causes my issue. Even the cable remote does. No matter what button I press.

I'm wondering if when I hooked this all back up and was playing with the settings to add the HTPC I may have changed some kind of setting. I don't know, but I'm really getting frustrated.

When I get back home, I'll push the cabinet out and see if it's something obvious and I'll swap HDMI cables. Maybe with the Redmere cables... it doesn't like the Pio being a "source." but it's just weird that every remote is causing the issue... yet... it's only when I'm using the Pio in the system. I'm also wondering if it could be a setting on the TV somehow. The same thing now is happening on when I go into the TV menu... but only when the Pio is on.

 

[TLS Guy]

I did some more troubleshooting. I switch the input on the Pio to AppleTV which obviously uses the same HDMI out to the TV. Same thing... if I hit any button on the remote, the TV blanks the sound stops and sits for 2 seconds and then the TV input box pops up followed by the picture and sound again. All of this takes about 5 seconds.

Adam... when the receiver is on... it seems like any remote i use causes this same issue. When the receiver is on, I normally use the Pio remote for volume. But just checking things out, I tried using the mits remote just to see what happens... and when I do... just like the Pio remote... any button I press causes my issue. Even the cable remote does. No matter what button I press.

I'm wondering if when I hooked this all back up and was playing with the settings to add the HTPC I may have changed some kind of setting. I don't know, but I'm really getting frustrated.

When I get back home, I'll push the cabinet out and see if it's something obvious and I'll swap HDMI cables. Maybe with the Redmere cables... it doesn't like the Pio being a "source." but it's just weird that every remote is causing the issue... yet... it's only when I'm using the Pio in the system. I'm also wondering if it could be a setting on the TV somehow. The same thing now is happening on when I go into the TV menu... but only when the Pio is on.

I have been watching this thread. After all your reports, I bet this problem is due to latency in those Redmere cables. Every time you change a function there is need for an initial handshake and then repeater handshakes re established. My money is on those cables having higher latency, than your Pioneer can cope with. I would not be surprised if a different receiver was even worse or better, likely it would be different. Why do you need amplified cables anyway.

In fairness, HDMI stands for HOME Digital Media Interface. It is not a professional standard. I think it is good rule to assume, that if you have a run over 25 ft, you may have problems whatever cable you use. Amplification is bound to add latency. I have not done it, but for longer runs, HDMI over Cat 5 seems to be what the pros recommend.

However in a home environment it ought to e possible to plan an installation where runs are no longer than 25 ft.

 

[itschris]

The cables are 6ft. I only bought them because they were super thin and flexible and made for easier routing. I'll just swap out the HDMI out from the receiver and see what happens beacause it's obviously something to do with the receiver.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I have been watching this thread. After all your reports, I bet this problem is due to latency in those Redmere cables. Every time you change a function there is need for an initial handshake and then repeater handshakes re established. My money is on those cables having higher latency, than your Pioneer can cope with. I would not be surprised if a different receiver was even worse or better, likely it would be different. Why do you need amplified cables anyway.

In fairness, HDMI stands for HOME Digital Media Interface. It is not a professional standard. I think it is good rule to assume, that if you have a run over 25 ft, you may have problems whatever cable you use. Amplification is bound to add latency. I have not done it, but for longer runs, HDMI over Cat 5 seems to be what the pros recommend.

However in a home environment it ought to e possible to plan an installation where runs are no longer than 25 ft.

For what it's worth:

"Q. What is HDMI?
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is the industry-leading technology and de-facto standard connecting high-definition (HD) equipment, from HDTVs and personal computers to cameras, camcorders, tablets, Blu-ray players, gaming consoles, smart phones, and just about any other device capable of sending or receiving an HD signal."

That's from HDMI

Redmere is an active technology, not so much an amplified technology as a transmitter/receiver combo that works in similar fashion to HDBaseT, but without the more costly transceivers.

I will say that I avoid Redmere because I don't like the use of directional and active HDMI cables in the pipeline. They are definitely a failure point and since they are electronics, they are subject to potential interference at the electronics level due to RF, electrical, etc.

itschris: Read my review on the Parts Express super slim HDMI cables, they are what you should always be going with in a slim cable at 6' or less:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/write-your-own-review/86559-review-parts-express-super-slim-hdmi-cables.html

At the end of the day, I deal with HDMI in the commercial space all the time. It is the standard on which Crestron, AMX, Extron, and others have based their latest distribution systems on in conjunction with HDBaseT. While there are some other 'standards' (DisplayPort anyone?) - It is HDMI which really rules the world on this.

I will agree completely with TLS Guy that it sounds like a compatibility issue between Redmere and something which is causing your issues. EDID, HDCP, or something else... But, with short cable runs, you have super slim HDMI cable alternatives which you should be using. Until then, ditch the Redmere stuff and see if that corrects the issues.

 

[itschris]

I'll do that and see what happens. I'll report back tonight when I get home. Thanks guys.

 

[TLS Guy]

For what it's worth:

"Q. What is HDMI?
HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) is the industry-leading technology and de-facto standard connecting high-definition (HD) equipment, from HDTVs and personal computers to cameras, camcorders, tablets, Blu-ray players, gaming consoles, smart phones, and just about any other device capable of sending or receiving an HD signal."

That's from HDMI

Redmere is an active technology, not so much an amplified technology as a transmitter/receiver combo that works in similar fashion to HDBaseT, but without the more costly transceivers.

I will say that I avoid Redmere because I don't like the use of directional and active HDMI cables in the pipeline. They are definitely a failure point and since they are electronics, they are subject to potential interference at the electronics level due to RF, electrical, etc.

itschris: Read my review on the Parts Express super slim HDMI cables, they are what you should always be going with in a slim cable at 6' or less:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/write-your-own-review/86559-review-parts-express-super-slim-hdmi-cables.html

At the end of the day, I deal with HDMI in the commercial space all the time. It is the standard on which Crestron, AMX, Extron, and others have based their latest distribution systems on in conjunction with HDBaseT. While there are some other 'standards' (DisplayPort anyone?) - It is HDMI which really rules the world on this.

I will agree completely with TLS Guy that it sounds like a compatibility issue between Redmere and something which is causing your issues. EDID, HDCP, or something else... But, with short cable runs, you have super slim HDMI cable alternatives which you should be using. Until then, ditch the Redmere stuff and see if that corrects the issues.

Well Chris, you have the voice of experience here from BMXTRIX. That trumps everything.

However I will say this about digital connections. It no longer suffices to just show continuity in the cables. Small changes in impedance matter, and that has nothing to do with the DC resistance of the cable. There is a huge amount of data going down an HDMI cable. In high density traffic it is reflections within the cable that are the killer. The reflections really slow the packages going to and fro, and once error correction is exceeded and or latency increased beyond the capacity of a device, you have the sort of problems you are complaining about.

So this thread has been a learning experience about HDMI and switching cables. These sort of problem leaning experiences are the best teachers in the world of hard knocks.

I bet the problem will be solved with an HDMI cable of the correct specification.

 

[its phillip]

I forgot that parts express had the super slim cables. I've not had any issues with my redmeres, but I'll definitely keep the parts express cables in mind if I need to buy some more

 

[itschris]

Okay... so I swapped out the Redmere HDMI cable with one of my old ones... same issue. So then I swapped out the Redmere cable on the HTPC... still had the issue. Said F-it and yanked all the new cables. Problem solved. it seemed like any Redmere cable connected to the receiver was causing an issue whether or not that input was selected or not.

Now I my stuff is getting up in the years. The TV and the receiver are about 5 years old or so, so maybe it doesn't play nice with the new technology.

I noticed that periodically the receiver was flashing NOT SUPPORTED. It did it randomly. So I have a dozen or so Redmere cables that I can't use. 5 or 6 from Sewell direct... yes I tested those for shits and giggles... same issue... and 6 or 7 from Monoprice. This blows.

What do you make of this? At least it appears to be working at this point.

 

[ahblaza]

Okay... so I swapped out the Redmere HDMI cable with one of my old ones... same issue. So then I swapped out the Redmere cable on the HTPC... still had the issue. Said F-it and yanked all the new cables. Problem solved. it seemed like any Redmere cable connected to the receiver was causing an issue whether or not that input was selected or not.

Now I my stuff is getting up in the years. The TV and the receiver are about 5 years old or so, so maybe it doesn't play nice with the new technology.

I noticed that periodically the receiver was flashing NOT SUPPORTED. It did it randomly. So I have a dozen or so Redmere cables that I can't use. 5 or 6 from Sewell direct... yes I tested those for shits and giggles... same issue... and 6 or 7 from Monoprice. This blows.

What do you make of this? At least it appears to be working at this point.

I'm glad to hear you found the culprit, I guess it's time for a new TV and receiver That really is strange tho that you're having the same problem with the Sewells and Monos, I think there is more than meets the eye here, did you have any of these problems prior to the new HDMI purchases, or was all well before and this freak thing just happened recently?

 

[ahblaza]

Hey BM, I see PE sells Sanus ultra thin HDMI, $45 for a 8' HDMI Every cable I have in my setup (there's a lot) are BJC, I'm probably over-paying but I have not had an issue with any of their cables in 8 years, I don't know I just feel comfortable knowing they're in my system.
Cheers Jeff

 

[itschris]

Nope. Had this issue once I hooked up the red meres. I guess it really wasn't something I noticed initially because I was so busy with the whole HTPC deal but it all started with the new cables and didn't get resolved until I pulled the very last one out of the receiver.

i didn't try any further combinations. I just don't care at this point. I'm just pissed I wasted all that time researching, ordering, and rewiring everything only to go back to my big stupid stiff cables I set out to replace.

 

[TLS Guy]

Nope. Had this issue once I hooked up the red meres. I guess it really wasn't something I noticed initially because I was so busy with the whole HTPC deal but it all started with the new cables and didn't get resolved until I pulled the very last one out of the receiver.

i didn't try any further combinations. I just don't care at this point. I'm just pissed I wasted all that time researching, ordering, and rewiring everything only to go back to my big stupid stiff cables I set out to replace.

No need to be pissed, we have all learned something.

I have learned you should not use active Redmere cables until they get the power draw down to 50 MA, or you know your HDMI board can supply 75 MA or more.

The current draw spec has not changed for HDMI ports.

Redmere cables exceed the HDMI port spec. current draw by 50%. The HDMI spec all versions is 50 MA. Redmere cables draw 75 MA. Whilst some ports will deliver 75 MA and the cable will work, unless the port on the device you are using is specified to be designed for a 75 MA draw, you will shorten the life of the HDMI board, and cause yourself a costly repair or premature replacement of your receiver.

So my advice is that unless you know your HDMI ports are designed for a 75 MA draw do not use or stop using Redmere cables. As far as I know manufacturers do not publish if it is safe to draw more current from the port than the HDMI spec.

If a port will not deliver 75 MA minimum, the Redmere cables do not function properly as Chris has found out.

I suspect this could be and likely will become a device warranty voiding issue, if you use these cables.

 

[Adam]

I do wonder if there's something else going on. I swapped out all of my HDMI cables to Monoprice Redmere cables without any issues anywhere on multiple components. They are in my living room system (receiver, TV, and multiple other components from various brands) and in my computer system (monitor and computers).

 

[TLS Guy]

I do wonder if there's something else going on. I swapped out all of my HDMI cables to Monoprice Redmere cables without any issues anywhere on multiple components. They are in my living room system (receiver, TV, and multiple other components from various brands) and in my computer system (monitor and computers).

Well you had better hope that your ports are designed for a 75 MA current draw. It may work, but you may well be putting your gear at serious risk of failure.

You need to check with the manufacturer, that it is safe to draw 75 MA from those cables. I have established that Redmere cables draw 75 MA, and you are not supposed to draw more than 50 MA from an HDMI port.

So I from what I have leaned I'm prepared to brand those cables rogue. Chris is far from the only individual to encounter this problem I find.