Yamaha or Denon for build quality and audio quality

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You do if you use the 'extra' bass setting in YPAO, or 'double bass' setting on Onkyo receivers.

Oh, so Yamaha and Onkyo also allow subwoofer use in Pure Direct mode after all. I thought Pure Direct mode disables all YPAO?

But if you set Extra Bass in YPAO, then even after YPAO is disabled, the Extra Bass is retained?

 

[D Bone]

You can also adjust the Audyssey EQ afterwards - it's called custom EQ.

This is incorrect. The "Manual EQ" has nothing to do with Audyssey. Yes, there is a "Copy Audyssey Flat Curve" in the Manual EQ settings, but that only gives and extremely rough approximation as to Audyssey's room EQ filters. Once "Manual EQ" is selected, rest assured, that Audyssey is now completely and totally off. https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/474096-audyssey-adjustments-and-manual-eq

 

[PENG]

This is incorrect. The "Manual EQ" has nothing to do with Audyssey. Yes, there is a "Copy Audyssey Flat Curve" in the Manual EQ settings, but that only gives and extremely rough approximation as to Audyssey's room EQ filters. Once "Manual EQ" is selected, rest assured, that Audyssey is now completely and totally off. https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/474096-audyssey-adjustments-and-manual-eq

I think he is countering the claim the YPAO can do it. By the same token, if I highly doubt YPAO allows "custom" (implying you can do almost anything) adjustments because if Yamha allows that, it would most likely just become "custom", i.e. not much to do with YPAO any more.

Below is a link to Gene's review of the Z9, he talked quite a bit about the YPAO at the time, Yamaha likely has made improvements since.

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-RX-Z9/auto-set-up-and-ypao-configuration

 

[RichB]

I think he is countering the claim the YPAO can do it. By the same token, if I highly doubt YPAO allows "custom" (implying you can do almost anything) adjustments because if Yamaha allows that, it would most likely just become "custom", i.e. not much to do with YPAO any more.

Below is a link to Gene's review of the Z9, he talked quite a bit about the YPAO at the time, Yamaha likely has made improvements since.

Yamaha RX-Z9 Auto Set-Up and YPAO Configuration | Audioholics

In that review Gene states:

Of course that doesn't change the fact that we would all like compensation down to the very lowest frequencies. Practically speaking Yamaha could NOT put a correction filter on the LFE output because the power necessary for correction would way overtax most subwoofers (amplifier and driver excursion).

So does XT32 equalize the low frequencies by attenuating and/or limiting the amount of correction?
It seems like this limitation would apply to all room correction except those built into powered devices like subwoofers.

- Rich

 

[D Bone]

I think he is countering the claim the YPAO can do it. By the same token, if I highly doubt YPAO allows "custom" (implying you can do almost anything) adjustments because if Yamha allows that, it would most likely just become "custom", i.e. not much to do with YPAO any more.

Below is a link to Gene's review of the Z9, he talked quite a bit about the YPAO at the time, Yamaha likely has made improvements since.

Yamaha RX-Z9 Auto Set-Up and YPAO Configuration | Audioholics

I'm not sure about YPAO, as I don't have any experience with it. I just wanted to clarify that Audyssey's room EQ filters can not be changed in any way after running calibration. The user can change speaker distances, levels, x-overs, speaker config (small/large) after running Audyssey without effecting the room EQ curves. Also, the user can adjust DEQ's aggressiveness by changing the reference Level Offset (RLO) which changes how aggressive DEQ applies bass/frequency enhancement as well as the surround level boost.

 

[PENG]

I'm not sure about YPAO, as I don't have any experience with it. I just wanted to clarify that Audyssey's room EQ filters can not be changed in any way after running calibration. The user can change speaker distances, levels, x-overs, speaker config (small/large) after running Audyssey without effecting the room EQ curves. Also, the user can adjust DEQ's aggressiveness by changing the reference Level Offset (RLO) which changes how aggressive DEQ applies bass/frequency enhancement as well as the surround level boost.

I know, agree, no argument.

 

[PENG]

In that review Gene states:



So does XT32 equalize the low frequencies by attenuating and/or limiting the amount of correction?
It seems like this limitation would apply to all room correction except those built into powered devices like subwoofers.

- Rich

You can read about their claim on their website, but I doubt that is the case. The processing power issue is why XT32 is only available on units that have the necessary processing power, you won't find it in any Marantz models until you get to the 8801 or Denon model until you hit the 4311 and 4520. In the lower models, you get XT, and they still equalize the lower frequencies but at lower resolution. I do not know for sure but am willing to bet that the latest Yamaha model would equalize the low frequencies as well. The Z9 may be the best at its time, but it's processing power would expectedly be much less than today's models. Case in point the once flagship Marantz AV8003 don't even get the Audyssey XT, it had to settle for the MultiEQ version. I believe the Yamaha Z9 is even older than the AV8003.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think he is countering the claim the YPAO can do it. By the same token, if I highly doubt YPAO allows "custom" (implying you can do almost anything) adjustments because if Yamha allows that, it would most likely just become "custom", i.e. not much to do with YPAO any more.

Precisely.

 

[psbfan9]

Oh, so Yamaha and Onkyo also allow subwoofer use in Pure Direct mode after all. I thought Pure Direct mode disables all YPAO?

But if you set Extra Bass in YPAO, then even after YPAO is disabled, the Extra Bass is retained?

Yes, you can use the sub in direct/pure mode, BUT, only when speakers are set to large/full band. For some reason those 'extra/double' bass settings are not available unless speakers are set to large/full band.

I'm not sure if the settings are retained when YPAO is turned off or not.

 

[little wing]

You can also adjust the Audyssey EQ afterwards - it's called custom EQ. But I don't mess with that.

Basically, you can adjust every singe parameter after you run Audyssey.

You can even use subwoofers in Pure Direct mode on Denon/Marantz, which you cannot do with Yamaha or any other brands, but that is another thread.

That's true, no sub out put with Yamaha in Pure Direct mode. But Yamaha does have a "Straight" mode that will output low frequencies to your sub. I believe the straight mode is minimal processing.

 

[Ospe2650]

Hi

I have a yamaha RX-V673 and it has been a disapointment. The sound is fine and the ios app super. BUT it does not read all USB-disk. I have bougt a Verbatim usb 128 GB (+100 usd) and the receiver will not read. I have formattet it to FAT32. The receiver has been "rapaired" (software update) once. Yamaha claims, that they are not responsible as they have written on page 60 in the manual, that not all USB works on their receivers. Yamaha will or can not inform me of which usb that works. You just have buy different usb's and hopefully one will work. The USB works perfect on my router and pc. It is an advantage to use the USB-port compared to DLNA, as USB is faster.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've used USB flash drive on my Denon in the past without issue. But you will just have to try and see. Buy it locally so you can easily return. Best Buy will price match Amazon, Newegg, etc.

Now I stream lossless music from my iPad or Android phone to my Denon (Apple & Roku).

 

[LAB3]

You can tweek YPAO to get where you want it but you cannot with Auddessy.

On a practical note, I wonder if there is a real life difference between YPAO and Auddessy if one were to switch between the two in real time. I don't trust anyone's memory including my own to say one is better than the other. The switch needs to be done r/t and blind to make the test valid.

I had a Onkyo TX-SR 805 HD 7.1 with Audyssey and now a Yamaha RX-V1900 HD 7.1 and to be honest I really could NOT hear much difference in my small den. I have owned a lot of Yamaha gear in the last 30 years and they all have had excellent reliability. My neighbor is a Denon fan and he has had no problems with his AVR either and he has Klipsch Cornwall speakers like mine for fronts too.. ( Denon sounds great). Tough call on which one to pick as both are really good. Purchase the one you can get the best price on and best extended warranty.

 

[M Code]

Hi

I have a yamaha RX-V673 and it has been a disapointment. The sound is fine and the ios app super. BUT it does not read all USB-disk. I have bougt a Verbatim usb 128 GB (+100 usd) and the receiver will not read. I have formattet it to FAT32. The receiver has been "rapaired" (software update) once. Yamaha claims, that they are not responsible as they have written on page 60 in the manual, that not all USB works on their receivers. Yamaha will or can not inform me of which usb that works. You just have buy different usb's and hopefully one will work. The USB works perfect on my router and pc. It is an advantage to use the USB-port compared to DLNA, as USB is faster.

Not all USB drives are equal..
Kinda like CDR software some work well others do not..
Typical USB memory sticks work fine in my Yamaha 3020 for MP3 and WMA tracks..
A large external USB drive such as the Verbatim may be simply too large for the 673 CPU/memory to handle..
Have you tried a typical 4GB or 8GB flash drive..

Just my $0.05...

 

[Plexmulti9]

A friend of mine who is a custom installer/ dealer also seem to prefer Yamaha over Denon & other makes.

But I love Denon Audyssey Dynamic EQ, which is not the same as Yamaha Adaptive Dynamic Range Control.

He sounds like a genius!

But seriously, having used both brands extensively (as well as Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, & Elite), I would like to add this:

All of these brands have taken their turns at the top of the "Receiver Hill" over the past 15 years or so. They constantly one-up each other and are in a revolving state of cutting to the front of the line. Today, in 2014, I think that it really comes down to the price point (model), required/desired features, and a few other preferences. Some quick bullet point notes....

- At the entry level (sub $650) I prefer the Denon or Marantz gear, although I have not tried the new Yamaha RX-S slim-line piece yet which is priced around there. That being said, the Yamaha product across all price ranges have been absolutely bullet proof where I can not say that about the other brands (in particular, Onkyo - which has gone so far down the hill the last 3 years I can't see them climbing back up again for a while).

- Yamaha's AVENTAGE receiver line I find to be, from top to bottom, a really great product. However, the higher priced RX-V product is similar and just void of some features custom installers would find useful. One gripe is that Yamaha decided to go with all on-screen programming, which can be a pain during initial setup depending on the install and where the equipment is located.

- The amplifier sections in Yamaha AVENTAGE product (and lower depending on the model) can handle 4ohm loads easily. This, to me, is important and speaks to the build quality of the product. Denons typically can as well, but they can run hot. Marantz: I wouldn't try it. They used to be fine with 4ohm, but I have had bad experiences too many times with the last two generations of models.

- Yamaha has the best app in the business. It's incredible, really.

- YPAO or Audyssey? I don't use either (for several reasons) when it comes to receivers so I am indifferent there.

The lineups between the two companies come down to very small differences unless you get all worked up over calibration softare. Not saying your're wrong if you do, I just don't. I prefer the current Yamaha product over the others, but two generations of product ago I would have cursed it to hades. Someone at Yamaha woke up and decided to stop making product just for Best Buy margins and price points and to start making great electronics again.

 

[PENG]

That's fair comments. On the REQ point, I can see why custom installers could be indifferent, and those who do use it would probably prefer something like Audyssey pro or Anthem ARC. As a user, I would not want to go back to the days when I spent hours trying to tune up one subwoofer, let alone several. With Audyssey, I am done with the subs in 30 minutes. DEQ is just a bonus and while Audyssey flat, non flat, or L/R bypass made no audible difference in my HT room but did make a difference in my 2 channel room, basically no harm done either way. DEQ to me now is indispensable as I rarely listen at anything louder than 75 dB(average).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

He sounds like a genius!

But seriously, having used both brands extensively (as well as Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo, & Elite), I would like to add this:

All of these brands have taken their turns at the top of the "Receiver Hill" over the past 15 years or so. They constantly one-up each other and are in a revolving state of cutting to the front of the line. Today, in 2014, I think that it really comes down to the price point (model), required/desired features, and a few other preferences. Some quick bullet point notes....

- At the entry level (sub $650) I prefer the Denon or Marantz gear, although I have not tried the new Yamaha RX-S slim-line piece yet which is priced around there. That being said, the Yamaha product across all price ranges have been absolutely bullet proof where I can not say that about the other brands (in particular, Onkyo - which has gone so far down the hill the last 3 years I can't see them climbing back up again for a while).

- Yamaha's AVENTAGE receiver line I find to be, from top to bottom, a really great product. However, the higher priced RX-V product is similar and just void of some features custom installers would find useful. One gripe is that Yamaha decided to go with all on-screen programming, which can be a pain during initial setup depending on the install and where the equipment is located.

- The amplifier sections in Yamaha AVENTAGE product (and lower depending on the model) can handle 4ohm loads easily. This, to me, is important and speaks to the build quality of the product. Denons typically can as well, but they can run hot. Marantz: I wouldn't try it. They used to be fine with 4ohm, but I have had bad experiences too many times with the last two generations of models.

- Yamaha has the best app in the business. It's incredible, really.

- YPAO or Audyssey? I don't use either (for several reasons) when it comes to receivers so I am indifferent there.

The lineups between the two companies come down to very small differences unless you get all worked up over calibration softare. Not saying your're wrong if you do, I just don't. I prefer the current Yamaha product over the others, but two generations of product ago I would have cursed it to hades. Someone at Yamaha woke up and decided to stop making product just for Best Buy margins and price points and to start making great electronics again.

Thanks for chiming in, buddy.

It's about time you took a breather from AVS for a second.

Great points.

Yeah, I think if I had not serendipitously experienced Audyssey DEQ, I would still be using Direct/ Pure Direct 2.1/5.1, which means I would be saying that Yamaha has the edge over everyone else based on your experience.

So for those who don't find use for Audyssey DEQ, I would recommend Yamaha wholeheartedly.

 

[LAB3]

Yamaha gets the pick for me. I have been very happy with all their products in the last 30 years. My 1983 Class A Integrated Receiver(analog tape, TT MM/MC section is awesome)it is still a good amp(140 AB, 10 Class A), as is my 2004 RX-V2400 7.1 AVR 130X7(non HDMI) or it would still be in the main room. My neighbor has had several Denon's with no issues so I guess between the two it comes down to the price for the the features you need. As for Onkyo my TX-SR805 HD AVR it was a disaster and after many trips to the factory for repair I sold it for parts.YMMV on the Onkyo. In 2009 I purchased the RX-V1900 HD 7.1 AVR 130X7 and it has been hammered on every day with no issues (retired I jam it all day.)

 

[D Bone]

- YPAO or Audyssey? I don't use either (for several reasons) when it comes to receivers so I am indifferent there.

Curious to what your reasons are if you don't mind?

 

[3db]

I prefer the current Yamaha product over the others, but two generations of product ago I would have cursed it to hades. Someone at Yamaha woke up and decided to stop making product just for Best Buy margins and price points and to start making great electronics again.

Are you talking about the RX-V1010 model line up? What ever came right after the RX-V1900/3900 models were just awful.