Paradigm S8 VS ????

[Alex2507]

Oh, come on now, AduDef and others, you don't want B&W 800D or 802D, etc.; don't you know that even a Primus 362 is 'superior' according to some that post on this forum (it has that dip in response OFF AXIS, don't you know?) ?

-Chris

You're talking about Sean Olive here, right?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=698910&postcount=120

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=699218&postcount=128

Are you denouncing the holy grail of perceptual research and DBT's?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=699084&postcount=123

Bringing this up where he is unlikely to find it ... tisk, tisk, tisk.

 

[cornelius]

To paraphrase Einstein: "Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured counts."

 

[adwilk]

To paraphrase Einstein: "Not everything that counts can be measured, and not everything that can be measured counts."

Thats an adorable little quote for your facebook page... but not regarding actual scientific method...

 

[WmAx]

Oh, not denouncing perceptual research, but this is certainly a case where it is loosely used, and the reference was not directly compared, and in addition, I can think of several highly regarded speakers that would not fair so well in a poor acoustic environment - the kind that said tests are conducted in - that is simulating an average domestic space. Speakers for example wit the highest potential SQ for stereo sound reproduction would be a poor choice for most recordings in such a room - such as high performance omnipolars for example. The Primus is by far a great speaker in it's stock condition - though it's great for street price - but it's one of the more resonant speakers I have come across than even many casual users seem to often notice the strange 'sound' it produces in stock condition.....I even wonder if the Primus speakers used in the 'comparisons' were 'specially' prepared - different from the ill equipped OEM ones that have zero effective acoustic damping in the main cabinet volume, since it's such an obvious issue. Even with acoustic damping, the speaker is extremely lively in regards to cabinet wall vibration/resonance, another issue I have to wonder about here. No one could seriously consider the Primus in stock retail condition to be a high performance audio product. Though I can personally say it has a lot of potential to be a very high performance product with the right mods/corrections.

And the power response issue is blown way out of proportion, especially when a room with good acoustics control(MANY highly regarded speaker systems including ESLs require extensive acoustics control to sound optimal). And you know the comparison tests used room with no controls; a room that represents an average non-treated domestic environment. There is much more to SQ than simply off axis response as a lone factor and I already made all of these statements in one of those old threads that maybe you linked(it's not even worth my time to click the links) so I'm not about to repeat it now. I have said nothing new or unique in this thread - but I will gladly make sarcastic remarks like above when such opportunity is so obviously placed - since it's such as absurd issue....

You're talking about Sean Olive here, right?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=698910&postcount=120

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=699218&postcount=128

Are you denouncing the holy grail of perceptual research and DBT's?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=699084&postcount=123

Bringing this up where he is unlikely to find it ... tisk, tisk, tisk.

 

[Alex2507]

... I even wonder if the Primus speakers used in the 'comparisons' were 'specially' prepared - different from the ill equipped OEM ones ...

... (it's not even worth my time to click the links) ...

... but I will gladly make sarcastic remarks ...

Alrighty then ... thanks for the reply. Glad we got that cleared up.

 

[PENG]

What are they smoking?

Talk about smoking, don't we remember another respected forum member didn't think much of the big Studio reference 100's that seem very popular around here? Speakers sound so different it can be a highly subjective thing to say which one sounds best to a particular individual, regardless of graphs and measured data.

 

[billy p]

Talk about smoking, don't we remember another respected forum member didn't think much of the big Studio reference 100's that seem very popular around here? Speakers sound so different it can be a highly subjective thing to say which one sounds best to a particular individual, regardless of graphs and measured data.

Oh you mean TLS...

 

[PENG]

Oh you mean TLS...

Billy you must have an IQ score > Sharon Stone..

 

[PENG]

FS has the RC70 on sale again:

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/category/floor-speakers/19171.aspx?path=bc977c5c0153f585fb032ed63b25ee7aen01

The ML Vista at $2499 ea is the most expensive one there but A/B them you may find the RC70 sounding best but be sure to bring your own CDs including some reference quality classical CDs and ask them to hook the speakers up to their most powerful AVR, at least the Yamaha RX-V1900 or Pioneer Elite.

So Billy what are you waiting for? I bet you can get them for 1300 a pair and they may sound better than the Studio 100 for half the price. But don't compare them to any of the Sig series speakers though, there is no comparison I guess, not even close to say the least.

 

[billy p]

FS has the RC70 on sale again:

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/category/floor-speakers/19171.aspx?path=bc977c5c0153f585fb032ed63b25ee7aen01

The ML Vista at $2499 ea is the most expensive one there but A/B them you may find the RC70 sounding best but be sure to bring your own CDs including some reference quality classical CDs and ask them to hook the speakers up to their most powerful AVR, at least the Yamaha RX-V1900 or Pioneer Elite.

So Billy what are you waiting for? I bet you can get them for 1300 a pair and they may sound better than the Studio 100 for half the price. But don't compare them to any of the Sig series speakers though, there is no comparison I guess, not even close to say the least.

I've always regretted not buying the 70's when I had the chance. The Digms have gone through 2 revision since and if I was to compare todays 100's v5 vs. the RC70 they should be better but not at twice the price. Your Veritas especially and the RC line offered great value for consumers.

 

[Alex2507]

Speakers sound so different it can be a highly subjective thing to say which one sounds best to a particular individual, regardless of graphs and measured data.

The graphs and measured data supported TLS's view but I did get some insight to his point of view after it was pointed out to me that he only ever listens to classical music. Jostenmeat went through quite a bit of trouble to explain to me why that is relevant.

I'm pretty sure that you know that the graphs and measurements are good predictors for what 75% of folks prefer but the remaining 25% can't be reliably accounted for ... leaving room for just about everything from Polk to Klipsh. Then of course once looks and price get factored in ... it's a free for all. That's my understanding anyway.

This is right about where BillyP get's red repped if history is going to repeat itself.

 

[billy p]

Didn't those methods also report some of the B&W short coming...bah...graphs who can understand them anyways...I prefer to use my ears.

 

[PENG]

I've always regretted not buying the 70's when I had the chance. The Digms have gone through 2 revision since and if I was to compare todays 100's v5 vs. the RC70 they should be better but not at twice the price. Your Veritas especially and the RC line offered great value for consumers.

Actually it is not a bad thing you didn't. The 70 are not cheap. It may actually be better if you resist all temptations now and save up until you have enough to go for one of the Sigs. I would definitely bypass the Studio 100 in case TLS is right, or even half right. I certainly was not impressed by the V2 otherwise I would not have ended up with the Veritas. The Sigs are different, even the S2 V1 sounded pretty good to me back then. You can always demote your RC30 to the surround status.

I am hoping within a year I should be ready to audition the S6 V5 and the 803 or 804D2 and then make a move. No point going from V2.3i to any of the Studios.

 

[PENG]

he only ever listens to classical music.

For me it is mostly classical, but I do enjoy the Diana Krall and Patricia Barber kind of jazz. I did not like the Studio V1 through 3 either but I thought the V5 was great, until TLS had his say.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Talk about smoking, don't we remember another respected forum member didn't think much of the big Studio reference 100's that seem very popular around here? Speakers sound so different it can be a highly subjective thing to say which one sounds best to a particular individual, regardless of graphs and measured data.

Oh you mean TLS...

Definitely highly subjective...

But I have to agree with TLSGuy on the Paradigm Studio 100; I did not (SUBJECTIVELY) like the sound at all.

I thought some Klipsch towers @ Ultimate Electronics sounded way better.

....But what the hell do I know?

 

[Alex2507]

I am hoping within a year I should be ready to audition the S6 V5 and the 803 or 804D2 and then make a move.

I got to hear some version of the Sig6 and the 804 something or other and some Studio100's all in the same day but in different rooms last year. I would have paid more attention if I knew what a big deal it was but the 804's sounded best ... no accounting for the room though. They were on sale for $2,750 IIRC. I was only window shopping though.

For the record though I thought everything sounded better than my Infinity Primus 360's and it just got worse from there as I went on to hear Chris'/WmAx's omni polar rig and computer rig. I'm gonna get to hear some Sig8's in a couple of weeks and am probably not going to be on speaking terms with my speakers for about a month or so after that. I gotta quit doing this to myself.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I'm pretty sure that you know that the graphs and measurements are good predictors for what 75% of folks prefer but the remaining 25% can't be reliably accounted for ... leaving room for just about everything from Polk to Klipsh. Then of course once looks and price get factored in ... it's a free for all. That's my understanding anyway.

This is what most people don't understand about the research that Toole and his peers have done.

 

[AJinFLA]

That was a HUGE question i would always ask myself. I am happy that someone was able to listen to them all on the same system and room.

Ideally the comparison (to B&W's , etc, etc.) would be done in your own room, where the speakers performance is most relevant (blind would be best, but usually impractical).
Unfortunately, that is often impossible.

cheers,

AJ

 

[WmAx]

I got to hear some version of the Sig6 and the 804 something or other and some Studio100's all in the same day but in different rooms last year. I would have paid more attention if I knew what a big deal it was but the 804's sounded best ... no accounting for the room though. They were on sale for $2,750 IIRC. I was only window shopping though.

For the record though I thought everything sounded better than my Infinity Primus 360's and it just got worse from there as I went on to hear Chris'/WmAx's omni polar rig and computer rig. I'm gonna get to hear some Sig8's in a couple of weeks and am probably not going to be on speaking terms with my speakers for about a month or so after that. I gotta quit doing this to myself.

And yet, the 802D will sound superior to the 804 to most anyone - and you wonder why I find the claims of the tests discussed way back when don't quite add up right.....

Oh, as for my speakers, I thought all the problems I caused you would make you forget how they sounded by now. Heck, you are still '.... past Hurt.... in recovery'... LOL. If you find any high end set up that even remotely approaches my main system, I'de like to hear about it. You might at least find one to match my computer rig.

-Chris

 

[AJinFLA]

Speakers sound so different it can be a highly subjective thing to say which one sounds best to a particular individual, regardless of graphs and measured data.

Fair enough Peng, there may be some truth to that.
So the next time someone states that their Bose cubes sound superior to the B&W 802's or their $10 plastic computer speakers "sounds best" compared to a Paradigm Sig, you dare not scoff or chuckle, correct?
And the next time someone states that their $10k wires make a huge and astonishing improvement and "sound best" compared to lamp cord, "regardless of graphs and measured data", you dare not snicker or object correct?
Wouldn't want to be totally hypocritical when the same exact statements are used by others, right...??

cheers,

AJ