HT Newbie - Advice for Sub please

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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
By the way, i am sure it wouldn't do much, but i am about to paint the room a dark color. Are there any paints that also have some sound treatment quality to them?

Going to order the subdudes this week as well.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
By the way, i am sure it wouldn't do much, but i am about to paint the room a dark color. Are there any paints that also have some sound treatment quality to them?

Going to order the subdudes this week as well.
Even if paint did affect the sound, it would only do so above 8-9khz where treatments don't really help.

It's from 40hz to 6khz or so that the room is most problematic. Paint ain't gonna do much in that respect.
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
Got it.

When looking on amazon to order the subdudes, I noticed they have a 30-piece set of 1 foot tiles from the same company.

How would I know exactly how much of the wall I need to cover and where?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Got it.

When looking on amazon to order the subdudes, I noticed they have a 30-piece set of 1 foot tiles from the same company.

How would I know exactly how much of the wall I need to cover and where?
First of all, are you sure that you need to cover the wall at all?

Those aurlex foam tiles are a waste of money... they lack the bandwidth necessary to give you a neutral room. They'll tame reflections in the upper mids / lower treble but as a result the sound will become too heavy in the lower midrange and bass. It's worse than no treatments at all, most certainly.

For what it's worth, if you've got good speakers, the following is a good example of how to actually deal with a room (although i'd suggest a bit more diffusion at the back and ceiling if you've got adequate distance :D





But before ever shelling out money on silly acoustic panels, you need to get a firm understanding of your own goals with these. It's not a given fact that they'll improve your perceived sound quality at your choice of listening SPLs. They'll induce changes but that may not be as positive as you expect. Remember also that your room has its own absorptive and diffusive elements like furniture and rugs. It's very easy to have an excessively absorptive room; especially if there's no balance in the absorption.

What you need, is diffusion when possible, thick absorption panels - 4" to 8" thick if necessary - and thick floor-to-ceiling corner bass traps at the very least.

BTW, i haven't really been following this thread, but why exactly are you getting a "sub dude"? Is your floor creaking or something?

After rechecking the frequency graph on the svs website, it plays pretty well to 300 HZ! But it's
pretty flat to 150, so i am going to change all speakers to 150, and i think i will also plug one port and change to 16hz mode. We will see how it goes.
Never run a single subwoofer higher than 120hz. Above that point we begin to get localization cues that tell us "where" the subwoofer is. You never want to know that there exists a sub at all when you close your eyes. It should give you the illusion that all the bass is coming from the main speakers.

The problem I'm sensing is that you're not comfortable running your mains loud, but you want the sub to be impactful.

That's a problem. You can't expect a lot of subwoofer output if you're listening at low SPLs!! It indicates your mains are running out of steam if you don't want to turn it up.

Your best bet is to upgrade your mains to something that you feel comfortable with the SPLs high. And yes, room treatments may help reduce sensation of high SPL which can improve that bass impact.
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for your post.

I am not sure why you think I don't want to run my mains loud?

The reason for turning up the crossovers is to let the sub do as much as it can for three reasons: save the receiver amp power on the mains for the rest of the frequency band, the sub should handle bass better than mains, and to nullify the very annoying problem when any particular bass line goes a bit too high on a few notes which makes it obvious which notes are played by sub and which just by mains.
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
Sub dude is an attempt to prevent or alleviate disturbing someone in the master directly beneath the media room.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Just on the SubDude/GRAMMA front:

I know that Granteed and ShadyJ really don't believe in decoupling. I do. So we disagree about that :)

Putting all science and theory aside, to me, it's a very inexpensive and easy experiment for anyone to run for themselves. $50 for a SubDude that you can return so long as you buy it from any decent retailer - that just doesn't seem like a crazy high amount of money to me...especially since you can return the device and get your $50 back!

So there's always the worry about placebo effect or the influence of being told that something is going to work and thus believing that it does, whether it actually does or not. Again, I don't really consider that a big concern when it is someone else - like a significant other or a neighbor - telling you whether putting a SubDude under your sub made a differencein another, outside room or not. So far as audible benefit within your theater to YOUR ears...ok, I'll totally agree that it's highly questionable whether you'd really hear any difference or only THINK that you do when the SubDude is in place. But if a neighbor complains without the SubDude in place and then doesn't complain when it IS in place? That seems pretty reliable to me.

Regardless, I don't really understand the objections to trying a decoupling riser. I guess it's a knee-jerk reaction to thinking that it might be "snake oil" or some other sort of useless tweak. It does suck to just wind up coming back to the old - "try it for yourself and see!" pitch. Naturally, that's the pitch of any infomercial or scam. But those usually only turn out to be scams because it's really a shipping fee scam - where the cost of returning the infomercial piece of crap winds up making it not worth your while to return the damn thing! That's really not the case with trying a SubDude. It's not an infomercial scam. You can buy them locally and return them to the store and ACTUALLY get your money back. So the "try it for yourself and see" pitch isn't evil in this case.

Again, we can debate the science and theory of it until the end of time. I can make my explanations of why decoupling often makes a difference - even in situations where intuition might make you think that it wouldn't (like on a concrete floor) - but folks on the other side can just as easily make their explanations of why they don't believe me.

But for all the "science" and "theory" talk, science is based on observation. And we run experiments in order to make those observations. Sometimes, what we observe is not what we expected! That's the fun part of science! Intuition is not always correct! So then we come up with theories to try and explain why our observations and our intuition did not line up. It seems to me that some folks have it a bit backwards and think that anything scientific has to explain and theorize something BEFORE observation. Yes, science can often predict things and then we go looking to confirm those predictions with experiments. But again, it all ends up coming back to experiments and observation. And even when all the theory is done first, observation can sometimes indicate that our theories and predictions were wrong!

So run your own experiment. You've got me (and others) predicting that using a SubDude WILL make a difference, you've got Granteed (and others) predicting that it won't. The two sides can sit here and talk and theorize it until we're all blue in the face. Or you can run your own experiment, gather your own observations, and find out for yourself. It's a cheap experiment. It's an easy experiment. You can get ALL of your money back at the end. So I really don't understand the logic behind telling people not to even bother trying a decoupling device. That just isn't good science. And before I get the "would you say the same thing about super expensive cables?" arguement thrown in my face: whether or not decoupling devices like the SubDude make an improvement is, sadly, a case where there are conflicting ideas, but a LACK of good, easily found and reproduced data. Not so with cables. There is a lot of good, easily found and reproducible data saying that super expensive cables do not make any sort of improvement. So telling someone not to waste hundreds or thousands of dollars on cables is not the same thing as telling people not to waste money on decoupling. The cable debate is pretty much closed. The debate on decoupling is still WIDE open. So given that, and how cheap it is to run your own experiment and make your own observations, I fall strongly on the side of, "test it out and see for yourself".
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
Yes, it isn't so expensive, especially in comparison to what I paid for the sub itself, so I will try!

Should get it tomorrow, maybe Thursday.
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
Received the subdude yesterday, but not sure about it yet.

Anyway, critical listening and such will have to wait a bit as I am engaged in the Australian Open right now. Not a lot of bass in a tennis match!!!

Stay tuned.
 
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Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Received the subdude yesterday, but not sure about it yet.

Anyway, critical listening and such will have to wait a bit as I am engaged in the Australian Open right now. Not a lot of bass in a tennis match!!!

Stay tuned.
Mine did nothing, but my subs are in a basement made of concrete, so... :)
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
This doesn't have much to do with the sub, so if I should make a new thread elsewhere, let me know.

I am watching a blu-ray of Swan Lake ballet, and although it is quite loud, it seems like the room needs a bit more air for the sound to expand out in, maybe these are reflections? When I stepped out to go the restroom, out in the gameroom, in some ways it sounds better out there because of this air or space. It seems just a bit congested in the room.

Sub is definitely involved on this and there is very good balance with this recording.

Subdude does help with wall vibration and how much extends into the master downstairs. It doesn't help enough though, at least when listening to electronic dance music and the wife is trying to nap.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
From what you've described, you're getting a very non-linear response with your current positioning. Have you been able to measure your frequency response at your primary seat and other seats yet? I'll be it looks like a wild roller-coaster :p

The larger the room, the less intense the various cancellations and peaks will be. Simply by virtue of the sound waves travelling a greater distance before they reflect off of a wall or ceiling surface and bounce back into the room, those reflection waves will have less energy in a large room vs a smaller room. So in that sense, yes, "more air" does help. It's just a simple matter of reflections and the strength of those reflections. More distance? Weaker reflections.

I know you've been having a lot of trouble getting your new PC13-Ultra to perform the way you want. I'm sure, by now, you're well aware that putting out LOUD, deep bass is not an issue for the sub itself! But getting the sub to work well with your room acoustics and your seating position is what's holding you back now.

Very important to keep in mind that with a lone subwoofer, the best you can get is quite linear, flat, accurate frequency response at ONE seat using some EQ (the PC13-Ultra has two bands of EQ built in, so that's a big help already, but more EQ might still be necessary for flatter response). At other seats, the best you can hope for is...something less than linear response...possibly MUCH less linear. But when you're mostly concerned with one "sweet spot" "throne" seat, a single sub can work well, but you HAVE to position it properly and then EQ.

So the trick is to find the spot in your room where there are no big dips at your primary seat. Big peaks, while not desireable, are "treatable" with EQ. And as for any seats OTHER than your primary seat - they're pretty much out of luck. They're going to have their own unique dips and peaks - which can be huge - and there's nothing you can do about that other than adding more subwoofers.

But for your primary seat, one sub is perfectly capable of delivering good response. You just have to find the right spot for it! If there is NO spot in your room where you can physically place your subwoofer and get response at your primary seat that is free of any big dips, then you need to move your seat. Even 6 inches can dramatically change the response, so it isn't necessarily rearranging the entire room or anything, just moving the seat and trying again...and again and again and again, until you find a combination of seating position and subwoofer position that produces a response that is free of any big dips at the primary seat.

Once you managed that, use the EQ to tame down any big peaks and you'll be good to go :) Nothing you can do for your other seats without adding more subwoofers, but at least the primary seat can enjoy linear bass.

Adding passive bass traps alters the room's acoustics. In a very rough sense, adding bass traps is akin to making the room bigger - in other words, you decrease the strength of the reflections, so it's similar in effect to simply moving the walls further away. Thus, passive bass traps can significantly help in reducing the severity of the peaks and dips. Ultimately, the dimensions of your room are still the same, so the peaks and dips will occur at the same frequencies whether you have passive bass traps or not. But you can decrease the strength of the reflections and thus, reduce the interference between reflected waves and the waves that are coming directly from the subwoofer.

If nothing else, run a sweep - like the THX Optimizer bass sweep from 200Hz down to 20Hz and simply listen to that sweep in your primary seat with your current sub location. I think you'll find that it sounds very uneven the way you have things positioned right now, with the sweep getting much louder at some parts and much quieter or even silent at others.

As for the SubDude, I'm happy that it reduced the structure-borne transmission somewhat. That's what it's meant to do, afterall :) It doesn't stop the bass from travelling through the air at all though. With dance music and other strong bass, you're certainly still going to hear it in other rooms simply because the air-borne sound is enough to penetrate normal walls as well as travel via any flanking paths. The SubDude should reduce the physical transmission of vibrations from the sub to the structure. If you noticed a decrease in bass in other rooms, that's the SubDude doing its job. But it can't prevent regular air-borne sound. To do that, you have to actually soundproof the room itself so that all vibrations - both air-borne and structure-borne - are contained within the theater room as much as possible.
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
I haven't measured my room yet, but I thought that was the point of the audyssey calibration.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
There's only so much that Audyssey can do. If there are big dips, Audyssey, nor any form of EQ for that matter, can't help you there. Dips cannot be "filled in" by EQ. The 809 comes with the MultEQ XT version of Audyssey, I believe. The XT version does EQ the bass frequencies, but it is still a lower resolution "smoothed" measurement at about 1/6th octave resolution I think. In other words, it's entirely possible for this version of Audyssey to "miss" some problem frequencies because it is only checking certain preset intervals.

I'm betting you've got some big dips though, and those are the real problem. Give that THX Optimizer bass sweep a listen. I think you'll hear what I'm talking about ;)
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
If I don't have a disc that has this, any recommendations?
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Sure, just pop over to a Redbox and rent Star Wars or any Pixar movie ;)
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
Better yet!...just order a subwoofer from HSU!!!! It comes with a free test tone CD :) jk

I can vouch for what FR is saying!! I have tried at LEAST 10-12 different sub placement locations. After i found which locations measured the best i adjusted the settings on the subs themselves (ie phase, Q, operating mode & EQ) going through all those settings to see how they helped or hurt my response was a lot of work in itself. Then it wasnt until i got those settings to work in my favor that i employed the 4band sub EQ that my Yamaha RX-A2000 has built in...many long nights but well worth the effort!

Audyssey is very limited in how much it actually does for your room modes. Its meant for people that want the easy way to better sound. How much better depends on how well things are already placed. Youll find that most of us who really want the best out of our equipment will go the Manual route & take the time to measure/adjust ourselves. Its work but you learn soo much about your room & your system its great.

Make sure you disable any & all EQ (Audyssey) BEFORE you measure. You want to know only how your placed speakers/sub interact in your room. This will give you a base to work from. Always measure at the same volume & make note of all changes you make between measurements. This will help you if you need to back track to a better response. A lot of adjustments will give you worse results therfore the need to step back :) Better have a 6pack on hand!! Haha!!....what? I did!! ;)...Dang that could explain why it took me so long :(
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
If you have the time and really want to pin point the precise frequencies where you are getting dips or peaks, you can use this Real Traps Test Tone CD file

It literally goes up 1 Hz at a time, individually. It can be painstaking, but there is no smoothing or intervals and thus, nowhere for any dips or peaks to "hide" ;)

I tend to recommend the THX Optimizer sweep simply because it's quick, you can set it to repeat over and over, and most people already own at least one movie with the THX stamp on the cover ;)
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
And here is a list of THX Certified DVDs and BDs

There's a link on the right side of that page that details the THX Optimizer a bit as well :)

Chances are, you own one of those discs already ;)
 
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Djeayzonne

Junior Audioholic
I just went through my discs, Avatar BD, Fight Club DVD, and Akira DVD. Avatar has no such menu option, and the only thing the two DVDs provide is a test to make sure you have your speakers wired properly.

Anyway, I just bought the Audio Tools app by Six Digital for iPhone, so I want something to test the whole system not just the bass anyway. Any recommendations for something like that?
 
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