First Official Denon AVR-X4000 Receiver Review is Live!

[mike c]

sucks too that one has to spend 1200 bucks to get pre-outs. ironic is that it's these units that DON'T need external amplification.

 

[Adam]

sucks too that one has to spend 1200 bucks to get pre-outs.

I agree. Companies seem to be pushing those into higher and higher priced units. In 2005, my <$500 Pioneer had them (and multi-channel analog inputs). In 2009, it cost a bit more, and I recall that it was only in the Elite line (but I don't really remember). Now, it's $1400 for either a regular or an Elite with full pre-outs. Yikes. Nicely, though, Pioneer offers pre-outs for the front channels in the VSX-1123 which was $430 (list is $630) on Newegg this past weekend.

On a related note, the 1123 is my current vote for the best value in that price range. I think that it beats the AVR-E400 hands down for my usage - it does multi-channel SACD over HDMI, has MCACC (which I've learned this week that I like better than Audyssey), and has a remote that can operate equipment other than the receiver.

 

[PENG]

sucks too that one has to spend 1200 bucks to get pre-outs. ironic is that it's these units that DON'T need external amplification.

I agree with your point about the $1,200 units don't need external amps but I think many of them typically do enjoy better sound quality with the added amps because of their preconception from hearsay and Placebo effect. Some, like me, would eventually realize the real reason over time when the initial excitement is over and the curiosity has been satisfied, while others will continue to believe in the perceived benefit as real and stay on course.

On the other hand it probably does make some sense commercially speaking for the manfacturers because at the $500 to $800 price range, many people may not think the prepro has good enough specs to bother pairing it with an external amp. Not to say people could actually hear the better specs of the higher priced units, just that a lot of people are influenced by the look, price and the associated better DAC, SN ratio, THD+N, XT etc.. Otherwise everyone would be buying the likes of RX-V667 or EMO and spend the left over money on something else.

 

[cpp]

It now appears that these AVR manufacturers have reached the end of the rope so to speak in features so now they are going to charge you for the "special features" in higher priced models, brilliant no greedy yes.

But sounds like the cheaper models

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Anyone have any idea the audio quality of the x4000 compared to the emo umc-200?

The X4000 will sound amazing. The bass is lightening fast with great impact and punch. The midrange is ultra crystal clear, detailed, high resolution. The high frequencies are super smooth. The soundstage is wide and deep. The imaging is precise exactly like the original source. IOW, the sound quality is sweet, chocolaty, intimate, refined, yet grand and explosive like a freight train from hell when required.

 

[Goliath]

Why are there are no technical measurements? No test bench measurements on the available power?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why are there are no technical measurements? No test bench measurements on the available power?

Because Gene has not measured it. The review was done by Cliff, not Gene.

 

[Goliath]

So Gene is the only one who can measure amps? He should teach Cliff how to do this for future reviews. Might be useful to have the extra know-how.

 

[Adam]

Why are there are no technical measurements? No test bench measurements on the available power?

Because Gene has not measured it. The review was done by Cliff, not Gene.

Yeah, I saw that earlier...and initially didn't give it a second thought. However, I do wonder now why they didn't combine Cliff's review (which is very good) with measurements from Gene. Is it because they had to get the review out ASAP because they have the first unit? I wonder how many more days it would have taken to get the unit to Gene and have him do measurements. A decent amount of the review (and this is meant as no insult to Cliff) could have been written from Denon literature because it talks about features and connections.

 

[Steve81]

So Gene is the only one who can measure amps? He should teach Cliff how to do this for future reviews.

It isn't a matter of teaching Cliff so much as Cliff having the requisite equipment. The AP unit Gene uses has been noted to be a $40,000 investment here, so we're not exactly talking about just picking up an Omnimic.

 

[Cliff_is]

The X4000 will sound amazing. The bass is lightening fast with great impact and punch. The midrange is ultra crystal clear, detailed, high resolution. The high frequencies are super smooth. The soundstage is wide and deep. The imaging is precise exactly like the original source. IOW, the sound quality is sweet, chocolaty, intimate, refined, yet grand and explosive like a freight train from hell when required.

Too good...You made me go find our old article about reviewing home theater reviews

 

[PENG]

Too good...You made me go find our old article about reviewing home theater reviews

I quite agree with that article, and I have to repeat, yours is excellent just too bad it is not accompanied by some lab measurements. Having said that, I know ADTG is fooling around with that post. Like me, he found out those high end DAC, preamp stage with superior specs and unused output power potentials don't always result in audible superior sound quality, hence in pure direct mode when operating well within their power limits modern mid range AVR such as the 4000 will all sound great. If I am wrong, I am sure he will correct me. Some of us audiophiles bought prepros and amps for other reasons.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I quite agree with that article, and I have to repeat, yours is excellent just too bad it is not accompanied by some lab measurements. Having said that, I know ADTG is fooling around with that post. Like me, he found out those high end DAC, preamp stage with superior specs and unused output power potentials don't always result in audible superior sound quality, hence in pure direct mode when operating well within their power limits modern mid range AVR such as the 4000 will all sound great. If I am wrong, I am sure he will correct me. Some of us audiophiles bought prepros and amps for other reasons.

You're right. I was fooling around.

I was answering a question about the SQ of the DENON vs EMO and just couldn't help myself.

 

[istrompf]

If you hook up an Oppo 105 using 2 channel analog out to the x4000, is bass management in effect or does it get bypassed. Was thinking of using hdmi for movies and taking advantage of the 105's Dac for 2 channel wanted to make sure bass management isn't bypassed.

 

[surveyor]

Here's the Denon AVR-3312ci 20 Hz to 20 kHz measurements. I'd bet they will be nearly the same as the Denon AVR-X4000.

HT Labs Measures
Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 122.9 watts
1% distortion at 143.3 watts
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts
1% distortion at 103.0 watts
Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 79.5 watts
1% distortion at 96.8 watts
Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode:
–0.13 dB at 10 Hz
–0.04 dB at 20 Hz
+0.07 dB at 20 kHz
–2.65 dB at 50 kHz Analog frequency response with signal processing:
–0.40 dB at 10 Hz
–0.14 dB at 20 Hz
–0.20 dB at 20 kHz
–58.93 dB at 50 kHz

 

[Darkwing_duck]

I quite agree with that article, and I have to repeat, yours is excellent just too bad it is not accompanied by some lab measurements. Having said that, I know ADTG is fooling around with that post. Like me, he found out those high end DAC, preamp stage with superior specs and unused output power potentials don't always result in audible superior sound quality, hence in pure direct mode when operating well within their power limits modern mid range AVR such as the 4000 will all sound great. If I am wrong, I am sure he will correct me. Some of us audiophiles bought prepros and amps for other reasons.

+1 .....lab measurements really differentiate the review from the masses of highly opinionated online reviews. We all know this. It was nice that you also took a peak inside to comment on its internals but....what good is that unless there is something we ( specifically me because I want to buy a new receiver ) can gather from that. It was still a review I enjoyed reading, i just didnt get to 'gasm when reading about the ouput measurements and more importantly for me the video processor performance. And that was such a buzz kill! De-interlaced SD channels FTW! I mean, in all honesty, to rate a receivers video performance all you need is one of those video benchmark discs right? I would do it myself...buy receivers and test their video proc and return the ones that dont impress...but I cant drive atm LOL...I LOVE to see how receivers fare with their video processing as much as how fairly rated its electrical output is. Would it to be to late to comment on its video performance? Scaling? De-interlacing? Pass-through, etc?

 

[PENG]

+1 .....lab measurements really differentiate the review from the masses of highly opinionated online reviews. We all know this. It was nice that you also took a peak inside to comment on its internals but....what good is that unless there is something we ( specifically me because I want to buy a new receiver ) can gather from that. It was still a review I enjoyed reading, i just didnt get to 'gasm when reading about the ouput measurements and more importantly for me the video processor performance. And that was such a buzz kill! De-interlaced SD channels FTW! I mean, in all honesty, to rate a receivers video performance all you need is one of those video benchmark discs right? I would do it myself...buy receivers and test their video proc and return the ones that dont impress...but I cant drive atm LOL...I LOVE to see how receivers fare with their video processing as much as how fairly rated its electrical output is. Would it to be to late to comment on its video performance? Scaling? De-interlacing? Pass-through, etc?

Yep, the main (95%) reason I subscribe to HTM is the lab measurements, the rest of their reviews do not mean much to me. I like Cliff's because he did not get into subjective stuff but talked quite a bit about the functionality/features.

 

[PENG]

If you hook up an Oppo 105 using 2 channel analog out to the x4000, is bass management in effect or does it get bypassed. Was thinking of using hdmi for movies and taking advantage of the 105's Dac for 2 channel wanted to make sure bass management isn't bypassed.

It will be in effect if you select Stereo mode so it defeats your purpose of using the Oppo's DAC because it will end up using the AVR's DAC in the end. You can use the sub in 2 channel with analog input in direct or pure direct mode but there will be no bass management in effect because the AVR will simply send the same bass signal to both L/R and the sub.

 

[toddRiffic]

Great review

It does look like audyssey is rolling off the dual subs response a bit to me. I've been thinking about getting a x4000, but maybe I should just stick with my antimode over XT32 sub EQ/HT. As I haven't had the antimode roll off my subs bottom end in order to smooth out the frequency response.

 

[gurmeet]

Comparing avr-x4000 vs STR-DA2800ES

If money was not an object which one is a better receiver and why - avr-x4000 vs STR-DA2800ES ?