DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
When a co-worker started seriously researching HDTV's back in 2003 or so, he found himself reading some different forums and review sites. I told him then that if he wants to find a product with no negative comments made about it, he could expect to continue watching his early 90's Trinitron for the rest of his life. First, all man-made objects have flaws and faults. Second, the internet provides a largely anonymous venue for people to invest a great deal of time, energy, and angst in flaws and faults. Third, satisfied owners are less likely to go out onto the net and talk about their satisfaction than dis-satisfied owners who are in search of answers to particular questions or problems. It is because of this that all internet research must take place with a cautious eye. Cases where people are strung along by customer service for months on the resolution of a product defect or other specific customer need are something that should be looked closely at, though. The thread with Silverbullet's problems (the one that MinustheBear quoted) includes another worrisome example: two brand new MFW's that exhibit hum without any active source, an issue that was reported to be resolved and that the customer specifically asked about before ordering.

The other factor that didn't significantly affect that co-worker's TV research as much but does have to be considered is personal bias. We all have some bias. None of us have all the right answers. A manufacturer's site will invariably have a number of happy customers hanging around who leaned toward that company's products when they made their own purchasing decisions and will thus tend to advise others likewise. Similar things happen in third-party forums, as individuals who own a product will be more likely to read and participate in threads that discuss the products they already selected. Some will be post-purchase rationalization. Some of it could simply be personal bias. Whatever the case, it can be managed effectively or it can be taken to unreasonable extremes. I post a lot at Outlaw's forum and in AVS threads about OPPO players because I have a lot of experience with both companies, but I try to manage my personal biases. There have long been instances of forum members at AV123's forum and elsewhere who took their rationalization and biases to unreasonable extremes any time questions were raised or unflattering comments were made. That is where Mark's charisma and marketing savvy come into play: he can build up such intense loyalty that people behave that way out of a desire to support their friend. There are always going to be people who see this behavior and are automatically leery of the company and its products simple because of the extreme attitudes involved. For those people, they react initially with the mindset that if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't. Others can get swept up in the energy of some extremes, though, and that's how a new customer base is born. When you've alienated the old customer base as badly as AV123 has, though, you also need to do a lot to keep the old customers (who have mostly traded in their zeal for anger) out of the way...
 
F

fanuminski

Enthusiast
this was posted by Lhasa-lover (Tom) on another forum:

"My God.

Take a business trip for few days and everything goes to hell.

So, before it get's deleted by the mods or I get blasted as some sort of nut by both sides on this argument.

One only has to go back and read my issues. They are factual and documented by AV123. My sub arrived. Plugged it in. Hummed like a mf'r. No others did and everything is plugged in one socket and I dont have cable so sort of suggests not a ground loop. But I used a cheater plug and it went away. Worked fine except the grill won't stay on. I guess I can live with it. Then the voice coil made metal noises. They told me told me to rock it back and forth. I did. It worked for a few months and they went completly bonkers. They shipped me a new one. When I took the sub apart I found a few missing screws and several other stripped. Not a big deal. I rotated the driver, redrilled, used better screws, problem solved. Sub worked great, cheater plug works, grill still falls off but what the hell, I'm and easy guy. But I noticed when I pulled the sub to replace the driver that the venner was uneven and seemed to be splitting. Called and spoke to them again. My option was to return it, at my expense, they would send me a new one, at my expense. So when I added the $200 shipping to the money I had aleady paid for the sub and orginal shipping, my total cost for the sub skyrocket to well ove $800. Hell with that. I put it back and lived with it. Months later it started popping, I guess you could say, and making weird noises. Diagnosed as a bad amp. Sent me a new one. Pulled the sub away from it's place and found that veneer cracked and splitting much worse. You can actually see down to the base wood. Very dissapointed but what the hell, I installed the amp. Worked fine. Then in reading on this site I see that they are selling the sub, with cracked veneer for more than $200 LESS than what I paid for mine which was A stock, premium finish. So every single thing that could go wrong with a sub, went wrong with mine. What a F'n whiner I am, right? I guess I should just STFU. I mean, hell, bad driver, bad grill, missing screws, bad amp, bad venner, full price, what the hell do I have to complain about anyhow.

So Mark asked me to call him. I did. He was outstanding. Told me that my issues were documented and that he "would be pissed too" This is a direct quote from a personal call with Mark. He said (another direct quote coming) "I want to show you what AV123 product really looks like so I am sending you a new sub, on me. What finish do you want it in. I will ship this week and you will have it next week."

So I posted that experience on this site as I thought it appropriate to share the good with the bad. End of that week, no shipping info. I emailed him and he said that one of his employees had an issue, he was alone, and was only a few days behind. Don't worry "he was working on something special for me" DIRECT QUOTE. So now we are at the end of another week and not only has nothing shipped but I get an email from him asking if it's OK to ship me a new amp on December 1st. WTF! What in the world will a new amp do to fix my veneer issue and all the frustration in replacing, pratically, the entire sub myself piece by piece?

Take it or leave it. Rant or non-rant. Its factual. It happened. My nature wants to believe that he is just confused and I'll hold out that hope. But I won't hold my breath. Now, excuse me for a moment while I dig that fox hole, put on that hard hat, and attempt to dodge the incoming from both sides that is headed my way.

Thinking about buying one of these subs? I'm happy to hear from those that did and love them. Why would I wish otherwise. This is just my experience and as I said before, I wish I had never read Craigsub's damned review because if I hadn't right now I have an SVS and be happy as hell without having to take flack.

As for Noubourne, I'll let his posts speak for themselves.

Tom aka: Lhasa-lover"


I really feel sorry for Tom. I could see myself doing the same things
that he has done and is trying to do. What I don't understand is
how ANYONE could take an issue with the way that Tom presented his "case". I am stunned that anyone could bash him or think
that, in any way, he has not done almost all that he could.

Personally, if I saw a post like this about the MF-15's, I would
run, not walk away from this product -not to mention the
customer service (or lack thereof).

On a comic note, his "I wish I had never read Craigsub's review"
was rather humorous :p

-M
 
Matt34

Matt34

Moderator
I just read the last page of that thread. :rolleyes:

Noubourne.....unbelievable! He either really doesn't have a very good grasp on reading comprehension or the blinders are on a little too tightly.
 
R

randyb

Full Audioholic
Wow, I think I need surgery after reading through the posts over at AVS. I need a lobotomy to remove the logic center of my brain. Whew, something else.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
It wouldn't surprise me if this somehow winds up as a short movie in the Shifty saga. He better hope that if he goes to the hospital for an operation he doesn't wind up with a doctor that's just like him.
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
I just read the last page of that thread. :rolleyes:

Noubourne.....unbelievable! He either really doesn't have a very good grasp on reading comprehension or the blinders are on a little too tightly.
And would you expect anything else over there?
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
While browsing through the multitude of sales...

on the home page, I noticed that bundles involving AV123 products are being made with TV's, receivers, cameras, radios, etc. Does anyone know if these are being sold through AV123, MLS, or the Graham Company as well as whether the products carry a warranty that will be honored by the manufacturer?
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
The warranties for those products should be disclosed up front since they are non 123 products. I have also seen sales that include Wii's and a Xbox 360. A match made in heaven would be packaging a Xbox 360 with a MFW-15. Two of the most defective products that have experienced extremely high failure rates that I know of. Atleast with the Xbox 360 you get the extended 3 year warranty and will have no problems with Microsoft honoring it.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
How's this for a recent delivery of speakers?

http://forums.av123.com/showthread.php?t=42219

The pictures are something. Look specifically at the boxes and their condition. While you can maybe blame shipping for some things, the condition to me looks like these speakers have been hanging around the old 123 warehouse/sales emporium for a goodly amount of time and getting moved from here to there. Well at least they're crafted with pride and passion in that dirthole Cali slop shop. Bravo!
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
it's kind of shame how far and how fast mls has taken the company on a downward spiral, is there no bottom in sight?
i bought a pair of these http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/onix-rocket-ulw-10 back in 2005 and have been very pleased with them. I guess at this point they are now a throw away item if they ever need service.
You are either nearing the end or do not have a warranty anymore. I believe they have a standard 3 year warranty on the amps and drivers. Was that sub known for any quality control problems like bum amps?
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
Question to recent x-statik owner's

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I posted this question attached to a reply in another thread but thought this may be a better place. For people that recently purchased these do you have the x-statik badge with serial numbers? Has there been some sort of design change? I just picked mine up and they have the same circular recessed binding post area similar to the x-omni's & x-voce. This just seems kind of odd to have a pair of speakers with no serial numbers and a different binding post setup to what's pictured online.....hmmmm - not sure what to think at the moment.
ya i just checked mine, and it is indeed the same.

No serial number.

excaluber
Mine has the nice plaque with serial number on the back. It's also signed by MLS. I vaguely remember that only first xxx number of X-Statiks were called MLS signature (special?) with the plaque..
Thanks for the heads up, yeah I spoke to Kyle as well and it's a design change. I thought they looked much better with the plaque but obviously it's the sound quality that matters They're amazing looking speakers for sure.....very unique in their own right.
Can anyone tell me a reason to stop putting serial #'s on the x-statiks? Whats the purpose in doing this?
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Can anyone tell me a reason to stop putting serial #'s on the x-statiks? Whats the purpose in doing this?
The picture on the site shows some pretty decent-looking posts attached directly through the cabinet and a metal plaque (with manufacturer info and serial number) screwed onto the cabinet. It sounds like they've changed to a plastic binding post cup, which probably saves a bit on both material cost and labor costs - particularly ditching the metal plaque. Hard to argue with the logic of that in their current situation, but I can't come up with any reason why they'd be comfortable leaving off serial numbers entirely. It would seem to make warranty record-keeping impossible. It also means there is no place on the speaker where the model number or manufacturer are listed, which is peculiar. A printed sticker would seem like a worthwhile inclusion.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
The picture on the site shows some pretty decent-looking posts attached directly through the cabinet and a metal plaque (with manufacturer info and serial number) screwed onto the cabinet. It sounds like they've changed to a plastic binding post cup, which probably saves a bit on both material cost and labor costs - particularly ditching the metal plaque. Hard to argue with the logic of that in their current situation, but I can't come up with any reason why they'd be comfortable leaving off serial numbers entirely. It would seem to make warranty record-keeping impossible. It also means there is no place on the speaker where the model number or manufacturer are listed, which is peculiar. A printed sticker would seem like a worthwhile inclusion.
A printed sticker would be all you need, and it would cost pennies. I agree about the record-keeping aspect since serial #'s are the first thing that is asked about under a warranty inquiry.
 
Z

Zaluss

Audioholic
The pictures are something. Look specifically at the boxes and their condition. While you can maybe blame shipping for some things, the condition to me looks like these speakers have been hanging around the old 123 warehouse/sales emporium for a goodly amount of time and getting moved from here to there. Well at least they're crafted with pride and passion in that dirthole Cali slop shop. Bravo!
Thanks for linking my post :D Yes they came in so so condition. After some polishing and a new base plate, they are amazing and sound amazing.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for linking my post :D Yes they came in so so condition. After some polishing and a new base plate, they are amazing and sound amazing.
The polishing got rid of the dents, huh? Why aren't you being compensated for those or for that matter, sending them back to get something that's not messed up?
 
Z

Zaluss

Audioholic
The polishing got rid of the dents, huh? Why aren't you being compensated for those or for that matter, sending them back to get something that's not messed up?
Polishing got rid of everything but one tiny dent on the back of one of the speakers. Since they only had one diamond black I'd rather just keep it than return it. At the price point it doesn't really matter to me.

I think you mistook my post @ AV123. I was merely describing my experience.

I've been following AV123 for years...I got a whiff of what was going on recently between here and TCA forums about MLS. Its unfortunate because I've had a good relationship with the company and Mark himself. I bought some Ref 1's from him directly which was fine as well as a bunch of other stuff from the company. I returned one item and that went smoothly. I'm not sure I'll be making any major purchases from AV123 directly anymore. I jumped on the last two just because they were cheap (X-SLS Encore, X-Omnis).

Looks like I'll be buying used AV123 gear from now on.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I understand that you were describing your experience, Zaluss and I'm not taking you to task for doing business with the outfit. As you said, you've followed a couple of other websites apart from 123 so you're likely well informed. You, like many others, are unfortunately experiencing what appears to me to be the steady decline in quality with respect to AV123 products let alone customer service. The price may be good (lower than what it used to be) but if what you bought is A-stock, given your descriptions and photos, there ought to be some sort of compensation from the company for delivering you stuff that isn't. It's just that it's so widespread across the product lines now like an epidemic. If AV123 is looking to right itself it's not going to be delivering product like you received. Was your card charged by AV123 or was it by MLS or The Graham COmpany?
 
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