DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[ju10503]

As you dig through these threads, what you will frequently find are reports of people who pre-paid one or two years ago (either direct payment for a product or in some cases non-refundable "gift certificates" that were earmarked for a specific purchase) and then failed to receive their product or a timely refund. In those cases, people have repeatedly inquired with their credit card companies and been informed that too much time had passed since the original payment to dispute the charge. In other cases, people bought a product and found that it either under-performed (didn't meet the published specifications) or failed prematurely with frequent failure of replacement parts. In those cases, people have ended up in a similarly difficult position of waiting for replacement parts for a product that they'd owned too long to return for a refund or to dispute the original credit card charge for. In fact, the original poster in this thread is a very good example of exactly what you want to see: he has outlined the order date, the dates that he pursued additional information, the time that passed, and the inability to dispute the charge (via PayPal in that case, I believe).

This is very good advise. I suspect that some people have tried similar things.

ok, so people wait years before they complain? sorry, but that's absurd! based on what you say about the OP, why on earth would you waste time discussing with a vendor if you weren't getting anywhere? if it was one week late, i'd call the credit card company or paypal or what have you. i don't know the circumstances, neither do you, about any of these incidents, but i can only base my own opinion on my experiences which have been stellar in every respect.

maybe i've lived in big cities for too long and am a little cynical, but when i see that people will keep up posts for 170 pages, but didn't call the credit card company promptly, i have to wonder if there are other motives at play here. the internet is an easy place to anonymously discredit people. i cannot say that is what is happening here, but it is a little odd to me that there is this population of gullible folks who all bought from the same place and none of whom thought to call their credit card company promptly. sorry, but that defies credulity.

 

[Matt34]

ok, so people wait years before they complain? sorry, but that's absurd! based on what you say about the OP, why on earth would you waste time discussing with a vendor if you weren't getting anywhere? if it was one week late, i'd call the credit card company or paypal or what have you. i don't know the circumstances, neither do you, about any of these incidents, but i can only base my own opinion on my experiences which have been stellar in every respect.

maybe i've lived in big cities for too long and am a little cynical, but when i see that people will keep up posts for 170 pages, but didn't call the credit card company promptly, i have to wonder if there are other motives at play here. the internet is an easy place to anonymously discredit people. i cannot say that is what is happening here, but it is a little odd to me that there is this population of gullible folks who all bought from the same place and none of whom thought to call their credit card company promptly. sorry, but that defies credulity.

Many of us didn't find out until at least a year later that our raffle money never made it to its intended recipient.

MLS has made many promises and many folks believed him due to his "cult like" following from some, even to this day will defend the man to the end. Don't think just because you had a recent "good" transaction that that somehow nullifies what others are/have been going through. Read the thread here and a few other places before you think we are just a lynch mob.

I'm beginning to smell a troll.

 

[Matt34]

are their posts here? those would be much more useful than the ad hominem nonsense in many of these, calling the guy names, and even referring to his wife (in another thread) ... there is never a reason in disputes like this to insult people, if for no other reason, that you could see yourself on the wrong end of a libel suit.

Your going to have to do the research yourself, I'm not going to hold your hand.

Here is a "smaller" thread that outlines some current issues as well.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459

Summary of events:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=627607&postcount=1591

 

[MinusTheBear]

I wouldn't call this guy a troll but most definitely smell an apologist; probably defending threads such as these for years.

 

[Chu Gai]

ok, so people wait years before they complain? sorry, but that's absurd! based on what you say about the OP, why on earth would you waste time discussing with a vendor if you weren't getting anywhere? if it was one week late, i'd call the credit card company or paypal or what have you. i don't know the circumstances, neither do you, about any of these incidents, but i can only base my own opinion on my experiences which have been stellar in every respect.

Well, you'd need to become somewhat familiar with the enormous, and I do mean enormous following MLS had. Most of that can be gleaned from the AV123 website by going back in time. Some might be able to argue the point that it was cult like with many members urging patience for issues that were taking time to resolve. They'd quite literally take people to task who dared post they had unresolved problems. Every now and then, MLS would come to the rescue and find a way to make it right or at least acceptable. However, as time went on, the problems became more frequent. People started to realize that there were many issues of a serious nature and they weren't being addressed in a timely manner if at all. For example, here's a partial list of things.

refunds
warranty issues
products that were promised to be in the pipeline but never realized (some people bought speakers with the expectations they could flesh out their system with 'it'll be here soon' other speakers)
malfunctioning amps
malfunctioning subs
frequent replacements of drivers
miswired speakers
poorly assembled speakers
veneer issues that appeared after varying amounts of time that literally spanned all product lines whether they were made in China or Colombia
nail pops
binding posts that came off
screws that weren't torqued correctly
missing or partial driver gaskets
ports that dislodged in transit

Then people started hearing about other matters.
12 people who ponied up 6K each to be beta testers for a speaker that has yet and probably never will see the light of day
employees that weren't paid
suppliers that weren't paid
business investors who have yet to see a dollar on amounts in and around 100K. Some have sued I understand but collecting takes time.
people who long ago paid for upgrades
people who pre-payed and have yet to receive product

If that wasn't enough, one day someone checked if a raffle donation had been received. It hadn't. Then others stepped forward. What was said to be two became three. Then four. Then... On page 73 of this long running thread you can see a summary of the raffles. Oh, and FWIW, the running of the raffles themselves was illegal since he's not a non-profit organization.

maybe i've lived in big cities for too long and am a little cynical, but when i see that people will keep up posts for 170 pages, but didn't call the credit card company promptly, i have to wonder if there are other motives at play here.

Justice is one. In a way the motives are irrelevent. Schifter has literally forbidden any discussions over at AV123 with attempts to do so being met with post deletion and banning the individual. Train wrecks are awful but they're hard not to watch.

the internet is an easy place to anonymously discredit people. i cannot say that is what is happening here, but it is a little odd to me that there is this population of gullible folks who all bought from the same place and none of whom thought to call their credit card company promptly. sorry, but that defies credulity.

As you can see, the issues at play go far beyond calling credit card companies.
I'm glad you got your product and I'm glad it works. Bear in mind though you didn't really save 90%+. It's old. Discontinued. No warranty that I know of. Service if you need it will be problematic. You've seen one side of MLS and found the experience engaging. Others have seen quite another side and have found found the experience enraging.

 

[MinusTheBear]

You forgot Chu about MFW-15 subwoofers not coming with an owners manual and some owners of this sub having to take out the amp of their brand new subwoofer to re-route the wires to eliminate hum caused by a design flaw. Many customers had subs delivered that still had to do this well after this problem was known.

 

[ju10503]

I wouldn't call this guy a troll but most definitely smell an apologist; probably defending threads such as these for years.

wtf? do you know me? actually, the first i ever heard of av123 was April of this year, when i made my first purchase, and i just made another order. my experience contrasted so drastically with some people on this thread, i thought i'd see why. careful with how you address people when you neither know them nor their motives. if you're interested in making a point, please do so, if you post to trade insults, i'm a little too grown up for that, and won't play.

 

[MinusTheBear]

If you did the research you would find the people complaining about their orders and refunds are legitimate customers; some are long time customers that have had positive experiences with this company in the past, just like you .

 

[ju10503]

Well, you'd need to become somewhat familiar with the enormous, and I do mean enormous following MLS had. Most of that can be gleaned from the AV123 website by going back in time. Some might be able to argue the point that it was cult like with many members urging patience for issues that were taking time to resolve. They'd quite literally take people to task who dared post they had unresolved problems. Every now and then, MLS would come to the rescue and find a way to make it right or at least acceptable. However, as time went on, the problems became more frequent. People started to realize that there were many issues of a serious nature and they weren't being addressed in a timely manner if at all. For example, here's a partial list of things.

refunds
warranty issues
products that were promised to be in the pipeline but never realized (some people bought speakers with the expectations they could flesh out their system with 'it'll be here soon' other speakers)
malfunctioning amps
malfunctioning subs
frequent replacements of drivers
miswired speakers
poorly assembled speakers
veneer issues that appeared after varying amounts of time that literally spanned all product lines whether they were made in China or Colombia
nail pops
binding posts that came off
screws that weren't torqued correctly
missing or partial driver gaskets
ports that dislodged in transit

Then people started hearing about other matters.
12 people who ponied up 6K each to be beta testers for a speaker that has yet and probably never will see the light of day
employees that weren't paid
suppliers that weren't paid
business investors who have yet to see a dollar on amounts in and around 100K. Some have sued I understand but collecting takes time.
people who long ago paid for upgrades
people who pre-payed and have yet to receive product

If that wasn't enough, one day someone checked if a raffle donation had been received. It hadn't. Then others stepped forward. What was said to be two became three. Then four. Then... On page 73 of this long running thread you can see a summary of the raffles. Oh, and FWIW, the running of the raffles themselves was illegal since he's not a non-profit organization.


Justice is one. In a way the motives are irrelevent. Schifter has literally forbidden any discussions over at AV123 with attempts to do so being met with post deletion and banning the individual. Train wrecks are awful but they're hard not to watch.

As you can see, the issues at play go far beyond calling credit card companies.
I'm glad you got your product and I'm glad it works. Bear in mind though you didn't really save 90%+. It's old. Discontinued. No warranty that I know of. Service if you need it will be problematic. You've seen one side of MLS and found the experience engaging. Others have seen quite another side and have found found the experience enraging.

interesting, thanks for the information, still we're talking about issues easily raised with credit card companies (refunds, non-received merchandise), dept. of consumer affairs (defective items, raffle(s?)) if acted upon promptly. re. investors, as far as i know, if you invest money in an enterprise you are rarely guaranteed a return. i lost a ton in investments in 2003, but don't think i can go after the CEOs. i don't know what agreement there was, but losing money on an investment isn't a crime.

so, you're painting a picture of a cult audio guru, whom people worshipped so much, they let him swindle them. maybe i don't understand the phenomenon, but we're just talking audio equipment here, which i realize too many people take too seriously, but it is still hard for me to fathom people waiting so long that they lost their recourse to the mechanisms i outlined above. i don't dispute any of this, since i don't have the facts one way or another, and if people were screwed i wish them the very best of luck getting their money back, but you have to question the consumer judgement of folks. backing off because someone on a forum took you to task?

re. banning comments on the av123 forum, regrettable, yes, illegal no, unethical maybe, but who cares? if people had used the proper mechanisms in a timely manner, who would have needed a forum.

maybe the moral of this apparently sad story is don't take audio products or their makers and forum comments too seriously.

hope this one day gets resolved, and for the others getting a little cranky with me for not toeing the party line on this, i've never been too good at doing that, and always gauge situations on their merit and not what the majority says is the case.

i really do hope people are able to resolve their issues, and remember "caveat emptor."

peace.

 

[ju10503]

Your going to have to do the research yourself, I'm not going to hold your hand.

sorry, but i'm spoken for and am not really all that interested in holding hands. maybe if you bought me dinner and got me drunk?

 

[ju10503]

If you did the research you would find the people complaining about their orders and refunds are legitimate customers; some are long time customers that have had positive experiences with this company in the past, just like you .

i'd never really be able to "do the research" unless i accepted every thing i saw on here as fact, which i'm not in a position to judge. again, and likely for the last time, since MLS and av123 can defend themselves and don't need me to do it, long time customers or not, cultish followers or not, i would never pony up $6K for a pre-order for any firm. and if i got screwed, i'd have reacted swiftly and decisively. what i'd really like to see is posts of people who have gone to small claims court, sued, etc. i just think we have a legal system for a reason as well as proxy advocates like CC companies, consumer affairs, ...

 

[andy_c]

...still we're talking about issues easily raised with credit card companies...

You keep harping on this thing of complaining to one's credit card company. But as you've already been told, there's always a time limit for this, typically 60 days. Some of these incidents go back more than two years, so that's clearly impossible for those folks in this unfortunate position. One could adopt a "blame the victim" mentality as you have I suppose. But this brings up the real reason for this thread - to warn people about products which have been severely delayed despite stories to the contrary, and in some cases, products that have never been shipped at all and indeed have never seen the light of day - products already payed for. One good point to take home from all of this is that if the time limit on reporting it to your credit card company is approaching, don't believe the BS stories you hear about pending deliveries. Just report it and get the chargeback.

 

[ju10503]

... Our Chinese supplier says we should have the replacement parts in x time". Do you call your credit card company or do you give the nice man a little time?
...

ok, for the record, only one of my purchases would be covered under warranty, so, to play along, what i would do, nice man or not, is allow a week's delay, and then let the CC company deal with it. there's a Portuguese expression which translates to "friends are friends, but business is different."

i'm a pretty nice guy too but my credit card company, bank that has my mortgage, private school my son attends, cable, phone company, etc. expect prompt payment.

likewise when i pay, i expect prompt delivery and good service.

 

[Matt34]

interesting, thanks for the information, still we're talking about issues easily raised with credit card companies (refunds, non-received merchandise), dept. of consumer affairs (defective items, raffle(s?)) if acted upon promptly. re. investors, as far as i know, if you invest money in an enterprise you are rarely guaranteed a return. i lost a ton in investments in 2003, but don't think i can go after the CEOs. i don't know what agreement there was, but losing money on an investment isn't a crime.

so, you're painting a picture of a cult audio guru, whom people worshipped so much, they let him swindle them. maybe i don't understand the phenomenon, but we're just talking audio equipment here, which i realize too many people take too seriously, but it is still hard for me to fathom people waiting so long that they lost their recourse to the mechanisms i outlined above. i don't dispute any of this, since i don't have the facts one way or another, and if people were screwed i wish them the very best of luck getting their money back, but you have to question the consumer judgement of folks. backing off because someone on a forum took you to task?

re. banning comments on the av123 forum, regrettable, yes, illegal no, unethical maybe, but who cares? if people had used the proper mechanisms in a timely manner, who would have needed a forum.

maybe the moral of this apparently sad story is don't take audio products or their makers and forum comments too seriously.

hope this one day gets resolved, and for the others getting a little cranky with me for not toeing the party line on this, i've never been too good at doing that, and always gauge situations on their merit and not what the majority says is the case.

i really do hope people are able to resolve their issues, and remember "caveat emptor."

peace.

Well aren't you just the smart one. Completely ignorant of the situation of others but smart enough to pass judgment on the victims that got swindled. Where were you two years ago to save the masses.

 

[jamie2112]

Well aren't you just the smart one. Completely ignorant of the situation of others but smart enough to pass judgment on the victims that got swindled. Where were you two years ago to save the masses.

Well Matt I have to say.........................sweet man.

 

[ju10503]

Well aren't you just the smart one. Completely ignorant of the situation of others but smart enough to pass judgment on the victims that got swindled. Where were you two years ago to save the masses.

passing judgement? where? all i said is i don't understand how or why people would wait so long to contact their CC company. you will also note that i expressed my (sincere) wishes that people get their issues resolved. i take no pleasure in noting that some people feel they got screwed. i just posited some cautionary notes and because i didn't jump on the bash MLS wagon, you felt the need to comment with your cheap shot. i prefer keeping a critical distance from situations where i don't have the facts, while maintaining empathy (for all). so, chill dude.

 

[ju10503]

You keep harping on this thing of complaining to one's credit card company. But as you've already been told, there's always a time limit for this, typically 60 days. Some of these incidents go back more than two years, so that's clearly impossible for those folks in this unfortunate position. One could adopt a "blame the victim" mentality as you have I suppose. But this brings up the real reason for this thread - to warn people about products which have been severely delayed despite stories to the contrary, and in some cases, products that have never been shipped at all and indeed have never seen the light of day - products already payed for. One good point to take home from all of this is that if the time limit on reporting it to your credit card company is approaching, don't believe the BS stories you hear about pending deliveries. Just report it and get the chargeback.

no, you will note i expressed surprise at people waiting so long that they couldn't report it to the CC anymore, apparently because they held the company or its CEO in high esteem. that i will never understand. i can empathize, yes, but understand, no. not how i see the relationship between buyers and sellers.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Your points are very valid about the consumer talking to the credit card company during the specific time frame. The great thing about consumer protection is that it can go well beyond making a complaint with the credit card company to get restitution.

I am pro consumer and I will always take consumers side on these issues especially when they have fulfilled their end of the contract by paying the company the money for the product(s) and/or services. The consumers are the victims here and in the end the onus is on the company/seller to deliver the product(s)/service or refund once the consumer has lived up to their end of the deal; which has always been the case with the people waiting for product or refund.

 

[andy_c]

i take no pleasure in noting that some people feel they got screwed.

"Feel" they got screwed? Being out thousands of dollars for something that was never received is more than "feeling" one got screwed.

Reading your posts, it's very difficult for me to believe you are anything close to sincere.

 

[Chu Gai]

You forgot Chu about MFW-15 subwoofers not coming with an owners manual and some owners of this sub having to take out the amp of their brand new subwoofer to re-route the wires to eliminate hum caused by a design flaw. Many customers had subs delivered that still had to do this well after this problem was known.

Well, to list all the issues would sound like bashing the company But you're right, while some customers have received acceptable product, taking a global picture of AV123 shows a company where quality was only a word and not something actively sought.

interesting, thanks for the information, still we're talking about issues easily raised with credit card companies (refunds, non-received merchandise), dept. of consumer affairs (defective items, raffle(s?)) if acted upon promptly. re. investors, as far as i know, if you invest money in an enterprise you are rarely guaranteed a return. i lost a ton in investments in 2003, but don't think i can go after the CEOs. i don't know what agreement there was, but losing money on an investment isn't a crime.

You're 100% right. In retrospect there's going to be a lot of people who are kicking themselves in the buttocks for not acting promptly. In order to man-up, they'll have to take full responsibility for not doing the things which you and for that matter, others, have suggested.
With respect to investments that you're thinking of, the ones having to do with MLS aren't on the same par. They bear more resemblance to words like con-jobs, swindles, misrepresentation and stuff like that. IMO.

so, you're painting a picture of a cult audio guru, whom people worshipped so much, they let him swindle them. maybe i don't understand the phenomenon, but we're just talking audio equipment here, which i realize too many people take too seriously, but it is still hard for me to fathom people waiting so long that they lost their recourse to the mechanisms i outlined above. i don't dispute any of this, since i don't have the facts one way or another, and if people were screwed i wish them the very best of luck getting their money back, but you have to question the consumer judgement of folks. backing off because someone on a forum took you to task?

I know you really don't want to wade through all the posts and threads either on this forum, AV123's, or others. It's like having to fast forward through General Hospital from its inception. You'd still be clicking the remote. But yes, a cult audio guru is a reasonable representation and it wasn't just bolstered by what went on at AV123, the audio press because of their lack of diligence, fostered this. He had a great supporting cast that echoed the virtues of Mark Schifter and knowingly or unknowingly spread lies and misinformation. A supporting cast that includes places like AffordableAudio, 6Moons, PositiveFeedback, EnjoyTheMusic, Stereophile and others. Associations with people who lend credibility to the persona like Arnie Nudell (ex of Genesis), Paul McGowan (head of PS Audio), Jason Serinus (reviewer), Wally Liederman (of Underwood Wally), Bascom King (reviewer and electronics dabbler). But this is not unknown in the annals of human history. Madoff and Jim Jones come to mind. Most who've spoken with MLS, and that includes you, find him a very warm and engaging personality. But the mark of any good con hinges on telling some indisputable truths. Things that cannot be denied. That's the hook. Then it's just a matter of stretching it. Enough will stay tethered even when as you note, it just doesn't make any sense.

re. banning comments on the av123 forum, regrettable, yes, illegal no, unethical maybe, but who cares? if people had used the proper mechanisms in a timely manner, who would have needed a forum.

If you visit their forum, you'll find that some sites are read only.

In the past comments relating to product, refunds, and all that I've listed earlier and more were handled there. Since they've taken a jack-boot approach, issues that were normally handled there have spilled over elsewhere. As gonk has said on numerous occasions, the mess is no longer confined to his house. It's gone postal.

maybe the moral of this apparently sad story is don't take audio products or their makers and forum comments too seriously.

I couldn't agree more. Despite the lessons, and there are many, that can be learned from AV123, people still have very protective and rationalized associations with numerous companies. Emotiva users are fairly protective over what they see as their company. They've publicly rationalized product failures, inconsistencies, vaporware, and what not. That's not to say Emotiva is equivalent to AV123. But Oprah's got a broad base of fans who protect the Oprah brand. So do Democrats and Republicans.

hope this one day gets resolved, and for the others getting a little cranky with me for not toeing the party line on this, i've never been too good at doing that, and always gauge situations on their merit and not what the majority says is the case.

Me too and quickly because a clock is ticking and if people don't get pro-active right away they're going to be on this long list of folks that are going to have to eat it raw. I appreciate your skepticism. You should make up your own mind and not rely upon what I or other individuals have posted here. In order to do that though is going to mean you're going to have to read a lot of posts and not everyone is into a 30 year soap opera.

i really do hope people are able to resolve their issues, and remember "caveat emptor."

peace.

From your lips to God's ears.