Dedicated CD player vs. DVD player

[PENG]

I'm not necessarily an "if you can't measure it it doesn't exist" sort of guy, but if you can only hear something you already know is there, then I gotta call BS. To me, measurements are interesting but largely irrelevant. Sound is everything. And if something is really "not subtle" or "night and day" like everyone always claims, then why should it be difficult to hear it blindfolded? It should be obvious, right?

Buy any gear that makes you happy, but realize sound quality isn't always why you're doing it.

I agree with Rob 100%. I like electronic toys, but I must admit I could not hear any significant difference in sound quality between my Adcom and Bryston amp. I do feel the Bryston has a wider sound stage and more dynamic but in a DBT I think I would fail to tell them apart.

For those who claim "night and day" difference between gears, they should have no problem passing any DBT and there is no need for them to deny the validity of DBT.

One question for Chris and mtrycrafts, I have a C$115 DVD player that does a good job with DVD movies but if I put a CD in it, anyone can hear the difference between it and my Sony NS725P (C$225 2 years ago) or my Denon 3910. Why is it that the cheap DVD player can play DVD movies/music so well and yet so hopeless with CDs? Anyone has similar experience?

 

[PENG]

Mtry wants you to do the testing so he can show you you're wrong. If your test ends up positive, he wants to analyze, break down, and fault the test. If you change the test and still get a positive result, he'll do it again. He will never stop, ever, until the last subjectivist is converted. Do you understand? This is not a game.

I hope you are not serious........

 

[Sleestack]

I'm not proposing that anybody be silenced - quite the opposite. Sorry if it came across that way. What I'm saying is that these threads always end the same, to little real effect. This thread was about players and ended up about DBT. When the same things get repeated time after time after time after time, people who were interested in the original topic get tired and go away. Thus, the "interested" become disinterested and the fundamental point of the exchange is lost.

Exactly. I'm sitting here looking at a Meridian G08, Classe Omega SACD2, Underwood Ultimate Mod. Denon 3910, Denon 5910, Onix CD1, Onix CD-2 and Onix XCD-99. I would love to discuss them, and I'm sure they would be of interest to many members, but why bother? I'm not sitting around doing DBTs and I will use words like "detail", so my opinions are considered useless by the ministers of linearity. Furthermore, why bother talking about specific products when you can simply repeat mantras that are suitable for every discussion?

I have a pair of Epiphany 12-12s on the way. I expect that they will be incredible speakers, but I doubt I'll ever bother discussing them here.

 

[Duffinator]

I have a pair of Epiphany 12-12s on the way. I expect that they will be incredible speakers, but I doubt I'll ever bother discussing them here.

After googling those speakers I hope you do give us your impressions of them. Probably not speakers most of us will ever own but I'm sure many would enjoy reading your thoughts on them.

 

[sploo]

the ministers of linearity.

Having finished chuckling at that, I'm sure I've seen a post from one of our two ministers, basically making the point that there is merit to expensive CD players having an induced non-linear response (if you like it) and that, as long as you accept you're paying a greater premium for the change in sound than actually exists in the componentry, then go for it.

I have a pair of Epiphany 12-12s on the way. I expect that they will be incredible speakers, but I doubt I'll ever bother discussing them here.

Naah. They'll never sound any good, not enough drivers in 'em .

 

[Rob Babcock]

I hope you do post about the Epiphanies. I've dreamt of them, and if the closest I'll ever come to them is hearing you talk about them, don't deny me even that!

 

[Buckle-meister]

...if I [and others] take a more passive approach in these issues, I fear this forum will turn into another audioreview or audioasylum. In case you have not read those forums: the signal to noise ratio is very low...

I have briefly visited the above sites. And yes, I totally agree; I don't think they're up to much either.

Then all they need do is agree or state in the first place that it is their perception, and not insist that as if it is an absolute fact of difference without offering supporting evidence.

My opinion is that...

In my opinion....

Seems fairly clear to me...

Regards

 

[PENG]

I have a pair of Epiphany 12-12s on the way. I expect that they will be incredible speakers, but I doubt I'll ever bother discussing them here.

Please do tell us about those speakers (I assume it will be in the loudspeaker and subwoofers section). I have never seen any "all speakers sound same" type of debates. No one is going to talk about DB testing speakers. Safe to go!

 

[sts9fan]

crap

"I can theoretically be deaf, and it would not make a difference to my posts in this thread, since I have not claimed to be able to hear anything in this thread."

thats the biggest load I have ever heard. The fact is audio is about hearing and what you hear. The fact is everybodys brain is different and can translate data differently. There is no machine in the world that can tell you if say Jerry garcia's voice sounds EXACTLY the same to everyone.

I would never listen to a blind art critic

 

[miklorsmith]

Please?

Sleestack - I for one would be very interested in your non-repeatable observations of the listed players. I'm an active gearhead, though not of your means (yet). My next speakers in a couple months will be Zu Definitions. They will provide a great lens to examine future component swaps. Don't mind the static.

 

[WmAx]

"I can theoretically be deaf, and it would not make a difference to my posts in this thread, since I have not claimed to be able to hear anything in this thread."

thats the biggest load I have ever heard. The fact is audio is about hearing and what you hear. The fact is everybodys brain is different and can translate data differently. There is no machine in the world that can tell you if say Jerry garcia's voice sounds EXACTLY the same to everyone.

I would never listen to a blind art critic

My argument does not depend on my hearing. I never even claimed that I could hear in this thread. My argument is based on the merit of my points. What use are my biased perception(s)? I am[as is any human] subject to the effects of perception bias. If I listened to two CD players under standard listening conditions and believed that I hear a difference, so what? It does not mean there is a real difference. That must be decided with careful measurement plus correlation to perceptual research or by bias controlled listening tests. Therefor, the information that I present will revolve around hearing tests only when such tests are performed under bias controlled conditions and/or supported by existing prior perceptual research.

-Chris

 

[Sleestack]

Sleestack - I for one would be very interested in your non-repeatable observations of the listed players. I'm an active gearhead, though not of your means (yet). My next speakers in a couple months will be Zu Definitions. They will provide a great lens to examine future component swaps. Don't mind the static.

Send me a pm and I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about my specific gear.... that goes for anyone. I'm just not patient enought to sit around and attempt to quantify and justify every adjective and adverb I use to describe my gear.

 

[WmAx]

Exactly. I'm sitting here looking at a Meridian G08, Classe Omega SACD2, Underwood Ultimate Mod. Denon 3910, Denon 5910, Onix CD1, Onix CD-2 and Onix XCD-99. I would love to discuss them, and I'm sure they would be of interest to many members, but why bother? I'm not sitting around doing DBTs and I will use words like "detail", so my opinions are considered useless by the ministers of linearity. Furthermore, why bother talking about specific products when you can simply repeat mantras that are suitable for every discussion?

I have a pair of Epiphany 12-12s on the way. I expect that they will be incredible speakers, but I doubt I'll ever bother discussing them here.

I think you can freely express your opinions without interference on any product or subject in a thread that's topic is clearly one intended for subjective discussion. I don't think anyone[I know I don't] has a problem with such a discussion. The problems arise when subjective impressions are used in place of substantial data in a technical discussion.

-Chris

 

[Sleestack]

I think you can freely express your opinions without interference on any product or subject in a thread that's topic is clearly one intended for subjective discussion. I don't think anyone[I know I don't] has a problem with such a discussion. The problems arise when subjective impressions are used in place of substantial data in a technical discussion.

-Chris

How was this thread necessarily a request objective data rather than subjective impressions? Do you really think that to the thread starter, your theoretical comments were any more helpful than my subjective impressions? Furthermore, I'm not going to be engaging in scientific studies anytime soon, so should I just not bother talking about my gear?

Are you saying that threads should be identified as "requests for subjective impressions?" I guess you have a problem with he Audioholics reviews given that they use quite a few subjective impresions as well. Shouldn't they leave that fluff out and stick with their hard data or at least warn readers?

Why bother listing at all when you can see everything on paper? Your perceptions will deceive you anyway. At least on paper, you know exactly what you are supposed to be hearing.

It is good for you that you are pursuing the truth in audio and video without having to use real equipment. I'm sure it is very cost effective. Nevertheless, I think I'll stick to giving my useless opinions using actual pieces of equipment. Somehow that seems to be more fun for me. I wonder why?

 

[miklorsmith]

To me, audio is about the journey and experience. The gear is fun to me, though I really don't care what it looks like (aside from obscenely ugly stuff).

I can seriously envision a thread with two separate sides and no common ground. One side doen't acknowledge the other. Two separate worlds, coincident, without commonality.

Example:

Originator: I just love my new Dynamig 4000, the buttery highs are sublime!

Response: You can't hear that. It's a figment of your butter-addled imagination.

3rd party: Wow! Cool!! My Dynamig is great too, but to me it's the Laker-girl tight (bass) that is smokin'!

Response2: You people are sheep.

Originator: What speakers are you using with your Dynamig?

Response3: I'm with Response1 and 2. Bits are bits.

You get the idea. This way, everyone could have their say and we wouldn't grind to a halt. Third parties could align themselves however they saw fit. Everyone wins!

Miklorsmith for prez! (hey, 200th post!!)

 

[Buckle-meister]

The gear is fun to me, though I really don't care what it looks like (aside from obscenely ugly stuff).!

Mostly I agree. There was a time when, had I the money, I would have bought obscenely priced gear if it meant having the 'best' sound possible, even were it to look ghastly.

Not now. I still want to have the absolute best gear that I can afford, but, at the end of the day, I've got to be able to live with it. It's not that looks are everything. They're not. But the music isn't the only variable anymore.

Miklorsmith for prez!

Best, perhaps, that I don't comment on that either.

Regards

 

[indcrimdefense]

I have a 15 year old Nakamichi CD player, and when I purchased my Denon 2910 several months ago, was hard pressed to tell the difference for redbook CD. The Nak obviously lacks SACD or DVDA, and I was able to notice an increase in the sound quality of SACD & DVDA, particularly when the next listening selection is a redbook CD. Currently have a demo Rotel RCD 1072, and depending on the source material, have not notice any difference between the Rotel & Denon, or a very marked difference depending on what components each was connected to. As I'm currently in demo heaven, with 1 receiver, 2 pre/pro's, 2 amps, and 2 cd players, the differences between the Rotel & Denon 2910 I attribute to the other components, as when I ran both on the same components, with the same cd, back to back, limited only by how fast I could switch the CD, I was hard pressed to find a difference. I was able to hear a difference between digital & analog playback, but no noticeable difference comparing Rotel analog to Denon analog, and same for digital. As I already own a 2910, and the rotel is only a CD player, I was pleasantly surprised to hear little or no difference. Any difference I heard I attribute more to the other components (Rotel cd w/ rotel stereo pre & rotel 1080 amp was very forward & bright, with poor vocals, where Rotel CD w/ Cary Cinema 6 pre/pro & Cary Cinema 5 amp sounded very good, with exceptional vocal quality). As the 2910 supports so many formats, and the Rotel only plays CD's, I see no need to buy the Rotel. This is not to disparage the Rotel, it's a quality CD player. But for virtually the same price, and with no real differences in sound quality, the Denon is a better player for my money as it is able to support more formats than only redbook CD.

I live in Indianapolis, and the local availability of SACD & DVDA is slim to none. Can anyone recommend a good website with a wide variety of SACD/DVDA and good prices?

As I have hundreds of redbook CD's, I am still interested in purchasing a quality redbook CD player, and better yet if it supported SACD & DVDA. However unwilling to pay for another CD player unless the sound quality is better than my 2910. I would prefer another universal player, but would be willing to purchase a CD only unit if the sound quality was a substantial improvement.

And Sleestack, please continue to post. You personally own equipment that I can only hear rarely, and your insight into this forum is greatly appreciated.

 

[miklorsmith]

Nice!

Sounds like you've got a winner!

 

[no man]

i've got one, i think its..maybe 5-7 years old, don't have it handy so i cant tell you the maker, but i've been browsing for a new cd player and ive borrowed some friends cd players and compared, only to come to the conclusion... sounds pretty much the same...

the only reason i want a new cd player is because my old one can't play mp3 cd's, and as you all know, they can hold way, way more music (about 200 tracks, as apposed to a audio cd sitting at 20 tracks), and my old one has no anti skip protection so, when you're walking with it, with every step and turn, it skips so basicly its a waist of money, and batteries. i recently got an mp3 player, about 80 dollars, its got good sound and decent memory, 128mb's, ok well not so decent memory, i want to get a hard drive mp3 player but i'm not that interested in ipods due to their faggotry, what i mean is that you have to get everything seperately, the dock, the cords, sometimes even the ****ing 50 dollar head phones (obserd price for freakin' headphones). i'm looking for a cheap 10-20 gig mp3 player, but i'm saving for an xbox 360, games, and accesories.

 

[jaxvon]

$50 is absurd for Phones? I must be crazy. I got some $100 headphones and compared to the others I was looking at, they were cheap.