Dedicated CD player vs. DVD player

[kay]

Hello all!

What do you guys think of the old mantra of Hi-Fi that dedicated CD players sound better? If one's using a DVD player as a transport, and using a receiver's internal DAC's, how bad would it be in comparison with:

a) a CD player via a digital connection (i.e. only used as a transport)
b) a nice-ish CD player via analogue interconnects

Would love to hear some opinions from the regular audioholics

 

[Sleestack]

I own high end CD players (Meridian G08, Classe Omega SACD2), excellent DVD players (Denon 3910 and 5910) and a pretty well regarded prepro/amp setups (Parasound C1 and A51).

My opinion is that if you use the digital outs, there isn't any audible difference between using an expensive and a cheap transport. Your DVD player should be fine. Others disagree, but I haven't been able to hear a difference running various sources through the same DAC.

In my opinion, a dedicated CD player is the way to go if you are willing to spend a substantial amount of money. Using the analog output on my Meridian sounds better than using the DAD in my Denons or my Parasound. On the other hand, if you are looking at CD players in the $500 range, you are probably not going to get a substanital improvement over your DVD player or receiver.

 

[kay]

Thanks for the honest and to-the-point answer!

 

[Dinkar Rai]

I own high end CD players (Meridian G08, Classe Omega SACD2), excellent DVD players (Denon 3910 and 5910) and a pretty well regarded prepro/amp setups (Parasound C1 and A51).

My opinion is that if you use the digital outs, there isn't any audible difference between using an expensive and a cheap transport. Your DVD player should be fine. Others disagree, but I haven't been able to hear a difference running various sources through the same DAC.

In my opinion, a dedicated CD player is the way to go if you are willing to spend a substantial amount of money. Using the analog output on my Meridian sounds better than using the DAD in my Denons or my Parasound. On the other hand, if you are looking at CD players in the $500 range, you are probably not going to get a substanital improvement over your DVD player or receiver.

you mentioned about using the digital outs. what about using the co-axial outs. will it make any difference?

 

[jaxvon]

Coaxial is just another form of digital. So the same thing as optical, just a different method of transferring the 1s and 0s.

 

[j_garcia]

It depends. Analog - If you have a $100 DVD player, a decent, say $500, CD player is definitely going to sound much better, while a $100 CD player is not. If you have a $1K DVD player, you probably aren't going to find too many CD players that are going to be much better (in general, depends on the player).

As Sleestack points out, with digital to a reciever's DACs, the receiver is going to determine how it sounds overall, so it isn't going to make much difference.

 

[WmAx]

It depends. Analog - If you have a $100 DVD player, a decent, say $500, CD player is definitely going to sound much better, while a $100 CD player is not. If you have a $1K DVD player, you probably aren't going to find too many CD players that are going to be much better (in general, depends on the player).

Please explain what, between a $100 player vs. the $500[no, go ahead and make that $15,000] player is going to differentiate the sound in an audible manner[in a bias controlled double-blinded test], if both devices were designed to have a flat frequency response and low distortion[I specify these things because some hi-end player designs have purposely modified one or the other to get audible effects]?

-Chris

 

[kay]

Well I'm definitely looking for something under $500, more like under $300.

Tossing around ideas of getting a Pioneer DV-575A, Denon DVD-1910, Cambridge Audio 540D - that sort of thing - and wondering whether I shouldn't get a dedicated CD player in the mean time and wait for a HD DVD player sometime next year. (I'm a big optimist...)

Wonder how my Denon AVR-2105's DAC's are going to sound compared to a reasonable CD player's analogue output?

For the record, the Denon receiver feeds a pair of B&W DM603 S3's.

 

[jaxvon]

Perhaps a difference in S/N ratio. But then again, I don't think the difference between a 90dB S/N on the cheapie and the 115dB S/N will be audible.

 

[kay]

Please explain what, between a $100 player vs. the $500[no, go ahead and make that $15,000] player is going to differentiate the sound in an audible manner[in a bias controlled double-blinded test], if both devices were designed to have a flat frequency response and low distortion[I specify these things because some hi-end player designs have purposely modified one or the other to get audible effects]?

-Chris

Main difference to me is the DAC stage. As far as transport goes, perhaps you can get a less noisy one, but I'm sure if you're spending $100 (as opposed to $20), you're already getting a good enough transport.

Now the DAC stage is where things can get really fancy. Jitter has been proven to be a major factor in SQ so a decent player would include expensive buffers and re-clocking before it feeds the DAC's. Then there's the issue of the actual DAC chips - algorithms, oversampling.

Add to all that the chassis, proximity of signal paths, clean and sufficient power - it all adds up. So yes, I believe you will hear a difference between $100 and $1,000 machines, but probably not between $1,000 and $15,000.

 

[Sleestack]

Main difference to me is the DAC stage. As far as transport goes, perhaps you can get a less noisy one, but I'm sure if you're spending $100 (as opposed to $20), you're already getting a good enough transport.

Now the DAC stage is where things can get really fancy. Jitter has been proven to be a major factor in SQ so a decent player would include expensive buffers and re-clocking before it feeds the DAC's. Then there's the issue of the actual DAC chips - algorithms, oversampling.

Add to all that the chassis, proximity of signal paths, clean and sufficient power - it all adds up. So yes, I believe you will hear a difference between $100 and $1,000 machines, but probably not between $1,000 and $15,000.

Actually I have several $1000 players ,a few players in the $5K range and one close to $10K. There is definitely a difference in their various analog output stages. Whether or not you might find that difference significant is really a matter of opinion. As much as you should be wary of snake oil peddlers here, be wary of those who speak based on what they read rather than real experiences.

I don't think high end CD players are the wisest choice for most people or those who are cost conscious, but IMO, even a great universal like the 5910 I own, does not compare to the Meridian G08 or Classe Omega SACD. Its Redbook playback is ver good, but not exceptional.

 

[kay]

Ok, make that between $10,000 and $100,000

EDIT: The other question is, of course, at which point does my average mid-fi receiver become the limiting factor. I suspect a lot sooner than with whatever amplification you're using.

 

[MDS]

Now the DAC stage is where things can get really fancy. Jitter has been proven to be a major factor in SQ so a decent player would include expensive buffers and re-clocking before it feeds the DAC's. Then there's the issue of the actual DAC chips - algorithms, oversampling.

Proven by whom? ALL players buffer and re-clock the data. 'Jitter' is the boogeyman of digital audio and lots of people point to it as the main reason for differences in sound between players. The simple fact is that jitter is inherent in any digital audio system and can never be totally eliminated, but the levels of jitter in modern electronics is so vanishingly low that it is all but irrelevant.

 

[Sleestack]

Proven by whom? ALL players buffer and re-clock the data. 'Jitter' is the boogeyman of digital audio and lots of people point to it as the main reason for differences in sound between players. The simple fact is that jitter is inherent in any digital audio system and can never be totally eliminated, but the levels of jitter in modern electronics is so vanishingly low that it is all but irrelevant.

I'm not so sure about jitter either.... which is why I think I can't hear a difference between various sources being run through the same DAC. I think the primary sonic differences are in the prgramming of the DAC and the components used in the analog output stage.

 

[WmAx]

Now the DAC stage is where things can get really fancy. Jitter has been proven to be a major factor in SQ so a decent player would include expensive buffers and re-clocking before it feeds the DAC's. Then there's the issue of the actual DAC chips - algorithms, oversampling.

Add to all that the chassis, proximity of signal paths, clean and sufficient power - it all adds up. So yes, I believe you will hear a difference between $100 and $1,000 machines, but probably not between $1,000 and $15,000.

Please refer to the conditions of the listening tests under which these observations are typically made. They are sighted, and thus, are highly biased. About as credible as loudspeaker cable reviews.

Jitter: I suggest you actually look for credible research actually proving thst it is a major factor at the levels of jitter involved in a typical DAC. I'm aware of alot of audiophile opinions on the matter, but not ones backed by respectable perceptual data. Even a typical consumer player has [1]lower jitter than is known to be audible in any perceptual test that even begins to resemble something with careful testing methodology, as opposed to the standard sighted[worthless] evaluations used to make points in the audiophile world. So far as other things, such as oversampling, that is a method to ensure a more precise anti-alias filter, and as has been a standard on virtually all equipment since the mid 80's. So far as proximity of signal paths to power lines, etc.; that equates to the noisefloor. If you have an audible noisefloor---well---that's obvious. Sufficient power: The device would not operate or would have serious operating errors if it was not fed sufficient power.

-Chris

[1]Theoretical and Audible Effects of Jitter on Digital Audio Quality
Benjamin, Eric; Gannon, Benjamin [Dolby Labs]
AES Preprint: 4826

 

[j_garcia]

Please explain what, between a $100 player vs. the $500[no, go ahead and make that $15,000] player is going to differentiate the sound in an audible manner[in a bias controlled double-blinded test], if both devices were designed to have a flat frequency response and low distortion[I specify these things because some hi-end player designs have purposely modified one or the other to get audible effects]?

Yep. The difference between the $5 DACs in that $100 DVD player and say decent Burr-Brown DACs in something like the Denon 2900 or 3910, will make a VERY noticable difference when played in analog from the player. DACs easily account for differences in sound, I don't see how one could question that, since you should have no problem hearing it in a DBT. It's a well known fact, not some mysterious audio fluff. Which sounds better to a given person is an entrely different matter, since everyone percieves sound in their own way.

What I don't see is why people insist on arguing what one person hears and another does not, whether it is measureable or not.

If there is no difference in equipment, then I suppose that means your personal system costs $500 total, because there is no difference between it and a $100,000 system (with the exception of power)?

 

[WmAx]

Ok, make that between $10,000 and $100,000

EDIT: The other question is, of course, at which point does my average mid-fi receiver become the limiting factor. I suspect a lot sooner than with whatever amplification you're using.

Your mid-fi reciever becomes the limiting factor when any of the following conditions are present:

(1) It does not operate correctly or in some way has insufficient behaviour with the speakers that are driven[insufficient ouput power, unusual impedance load, etc.].

(2) It does not have sufficient features/options for the application.

(3) You want something that is nicer, in a cosmetic/asthetic sense, that helps fulfill a mental satisfaction.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Yep. The difference between the $5 DACs in that $100 DVD player and say decent Burr-Brown DACs in something like the Denon 2900 or 3910, will make a VERY noticable difference when played in analog from the player. DACs easily account for differences in sound, I don't see how one could question that, since you should have no problem hearing it in a DBT. It's a well known fact, not some mysterious audio fluff. Which sounds better to a given person is an entrely different matter, since everyone percieves sound in their own way.

Since a low cost, properly designed DAC can have measurable characteristics that are well under known human JNDs, what is left besides mysterious audio fluff?

-Chris

 

[j_garcia]

Since a low cost, properly designed DAC can have measurable characteristics that are well under known human JNDs, what is left besides mysterious audio fluff?

So, there's NO difference AT ALL between a $1K player and a $100 player? The DAC and it's implementation, every electronic component in the singal path, has an influence on the sound. I suppose there's no difference in video DACs either?

What else is there no difference in? Beef? Tires? Religion? Air?

 

[Sleestack]

So, there's NO difference AT ALL between a $1K player and a $100 player? The DAC and it's implementation, every electronic component in the singal path, has an influence on the sound. I suppose there's no difference in video DACs either?

What else is there no difference in? Beef? Tires? Religion? Air?

I hear you. The position some people take on this board is just as bad as the snake oil vendors. But, some poeple need to find away to justify their own inability or reluctance to spend money on excellent equipment that happens to be expensive.