Dedicated CD player vs. DVD player

[sploo]

I am not sure where you intend to measure and with what? Not at the speakers. If you can measure the outout frequency response of the CD player, analog in this case, that would be fine to see how flat the response, what variations are at what frequency.
Better use a calibrated CD of a known level and porbably measure the ouput voltage too of the player. But, you get FR data in Sound &Video, maybe even in Stereopile too They tend to measure pretty well.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.

they compared a RCA, $80 unit against several $1000+ units, DBT, 20 trials, young listeners. Best guess was 12 of 20, not very promising

What I'm trying to work out is, given the same room, speakers, amp etc., why do different players sound different? If jitter and distortion are below audible thresholds, then surely there's not much left other than frequency response.

Playing an audio CD with a constant volume frequency sweep, then measuring the frequency response at the analogue output stage of the CDP, would surely tell you why the player sounds the way it does. Or am I missing something here?

 

[sts9fan]

maybe i did not explain

"There are many other reasonable expanations for what she told you. She knows you are looking for differences and she gladly agreed. she is human and biased like all of us. She had a 50% chance of telling you what you wanted to hear. How do you or she knows for sure?"

We both listen to the same track on both players. This was the forst time we had listened to the 4960. Without me saying a thing she said "The bass on this one sucks can we now listen to the disk all the way through and stop this stupid sh!t?".

Maybe we were bias. I am sure I was but through all the hype on the intrawebs I may have been bias to the 4960 for all I know. I am not phsycologist.

As for the mass thing I was talking about overall build quaility which means something to me.

 

[Buckle-meister]

What I gather from your encompassing post is to trust everything no matter what?

Although you do not quote me, I presume from the above that you refer to myself. Assuming this to be the case, I believe you have misunderstood my meaning.

Of course I do not blindly trust everything I am told. You must know this. My eyes are open. I would like to think that I will always politely listen to others opinions and then make up my own mind as to whether or not I accept them or not. But what I do not do is infer or state that the person is wrong for thinking what they do. It is not my place to judge them; they are as free to think what they will as I am.

Why would I trust, believe, accept an opinion of dubious value?

I am not saying that you should. If that is how what is being said comes across to you, then don't trust, believe or accept it. But don't put the person in question down for thinking what they do. Yours is not to judge.

Perhaps we should accept reports of alien abductions because people did experience them?

Perhaps we should. Personally, I'm very sceptical about alien abductions. But if a person tells me that they believe they were abducted, who am I to say they weren't? I wasn't there at the time it happened. I don't have their experiance of it to relate to. So how can I possibly make the statement that they are wrong?; that they only imagined the whole afair? To do so would make me a hypocrite.

Nobody here doubts the value or proof of DBT's mtrycrafts, and I firmly believe that everybody here would accept the results of a DBT test on themselves, even were it to contradict what they may initially have thought. Can I say that I am not simply imagining the differences between my old CD player and new DVD player? No. Is it possible that a DBT would reveal this to be true? Absolutely. Would I accept that I had just imagined the differences all along if the DBT test concluded this? Yes, without a seconds hesitation.

The thing I believe you don't realise mtrycrafts, is that all the 'others' in the same 'camp' would, I believe, act exactly the same way. But until that day comes, we are innocent until proven guilty. You cannot infer or state that we are imagining things because the test has not been made.

That is the problem in this country, believe everything, question nothing.

Nobody is telling you what to believe, nor to question nothing. Do you truly believe that everybody in this country thinks the same? Then why brand them all as sheep?

Finally, I know my last few posts must surely come across as having had a go at yourself and WmAx. Please know that this is not the case. In one of my first ever posts, I wrote:

Finally, thanks for your replies. I am discovering that it can sometimes be quite tricky to post replies; most especially opinions, without conveying the feeling of 'stepping on someones toes'! It is not my intension to do so to anybody.

mtrycrafts, you responded:

Hey, don't feel like the Lone Ranger You will get the hang of it and stepping on toes are why we are here. Besides, no one will phisically strike back, I hope. Part of learning, asking and part of life.

I hope we remain friends.

Kind regards

Robbie

 

[miklorsmith]

Alas

Mtry wants you to do the testing so he can show you you're wrong. If your test ends up positive, he wants to analyze, break down, and fault the test. If you change the test and still get a positive result, he'll do it again. He will never stop, ever, until the last subjectivist is converted. Do you understand? This is not a game.

Seriously, I have doubts about the testing. I'm sure testing discovers some things but if it can't separate amplifiers, it don't work.

But, this thread is degenerating like so many promising before. . .

 

[Buckle-meister]

But, this thread is degenerating like so many promising before. . .

What makes you think that?

Regards

 

[miklorsmith]

It started with questions about audible differences (?) between different technologies and types of players. I believe players sound different and was looking for first-hand expertise. There were a couple of folks with considerable experience that seem to have wafted away on the winds of doubt.

Now we're talking DBT. Whee. I've been here many times before. Guess how many people have changed opinions or even expressed any new facets?

 

[j_garcia]

Give 100, 500, 1000 (however many you like) people the same selection of songs or sounds to listen to, and then ask them what they heard. Do you think you will get the same answer from everyone, or even half of them?

Have you not asked anyone in your life to repeat something you didn't understand just to be told, they didn't say anything? That is perception, your brain making things up. Happens all the time.

...sounds like schizophrenia to me. What this typically turns out to be is that you DID hear something, the person in question just wasn't the origin or the sound...

We're talking about DBT because that's what the "there is no difference" camp insists on for everything that they consider to have no difference.

 

[miklorsmith]

. . .and the degeneration is that it prevents the rest of us from discussing what we intended to and wanted to in the first place.

 

[Buckle-meister]

It started with questions about audible differences...

Ah, I see. Sorry for helping it go further down another path.

Regards

 

[WmAx]

Given that I had talked about the difference between various players a few posts prior, I think it is natural to assume that your statements were meant to be applicable to my post as well.

For clarification: I did not reply to the post you are referring to.

I can't seem to get you to talk about any specific product, so perhaps we all just need to hit the books so we can reach your level of aural enlightenment.

I never mentioned a specific product, because that was not my intention, but to generalize performance limitations vs. a relative price point.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

How about mass? Quality of build and components? You do you believe that the componets in a $100 player and a $1000 player are the same? Also I would never assume that a product is better due to price without doing research and listening. Also what about reliability? Is the motor in the $100 as good? Is the board manufactured as carefully?

Build quality, cosmetics and reliability are not part of my posts, and are other variables to be considered. As I have stated in the past, if someone prefers something for whatever reason, then they should use the preferred device. I am not arguing preference of specific products.

What do you use as a cd player just for reference? I just finished modding my Toshiba 4060 and yes I can hear the difference.

I don't answer such questions in this type of discussion. I can theoretically be deaf, and it would not make a difference to my posts in this thread, since I have not claimed to be able to hear anything in this thread.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

But you do. You commonly ask that people justify their observations with raw data. Yet their observations are just that; observations. They might not carry any weight in your eyes, but for others, they do.

People are free to choose who they give credibility, obviously. However, I will ensure that the perspectives are explained, so that the other variables[psychological bias effects, actual technical issues and limitations, etc.] in these situations are known by general people. I wish that I did not have to appear to be so abrasive, but if I[and others] take a more passive approach in these issues, I fear this forum will turn into another audioreview or audioasylum. In case you have not read those forums: the signal to noise ratio is very low, so it's difficult for a general person to differentiate fact from fiction.

Trust them! It doesn't matter whether they only thought they heard something that wasn't there at all. For them, it did exist. It was part of their reality. I'd bet any money that even though these same people may disagree with passages of text you have written, they don't think any less of you.

Then all they need do is agree or state in the first place that it is their perception, and not insist that as if it is an absolute fact of difference without offering supporting evidence.

As have I. I bought a Yamaha S2500 universal player recently. I use the same coaxial cable from the player to the DSP-Z9 that I did from my previous Musical Fidelity CD player. In each case, I know I am using the player only as a transport. I know that I should't hear a difference. But I simply cannot escape the fact that I can.

You are already aware of the relevant variables and possibilities[as I know you have read similar threads to this in which I participated in the past], so I will not respond to this unless you have a specific query.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

My beef is that it tends to be that the witch hunters almost always are not even OPEN to the concept that something other than their position could even be partially true.

I, personally, am open to changing my position, if credible/verified data is shown to support such.

[/quote]There are plenty of things we cannot measure or explain, but we cannot deny they exist. So why is it so hard to believe that some parts of audio might be that way. Maybe we don't have the ability to define what it is that truly characterizes what are often very subtle differences, but that does not mean it does not exist.[/QUOTE]

No one has shown an unquantifiable factor to affect audio in a repeatable valid double-blind test. While it is reasonable to pose 'if' type questions, it is not reasonable to move them beyond the point of highly-questionable theories unless substantial evidence exists. To accept a mysterious factor to exist in audio signals would be like accepting ghosts to be real, without scientifically valid data to back up the assertions. So, until such data is produced, it can not be accepted as a fact if an efficient system of discovery[this is all that science is] is desired.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Perhaps we should. Personally, I'm very sceptical about alien abductions. But if a person tells me that they believe they were abducted, who am I to say they weren't? I wasn't there at the time it happened. I don't have their experiance of it to relate to. So how can I possibly make the statement that they are wrong?; that they only imagined the whole afair? To do so would make me a hypocrite.

If you want a valuable resource of advice/information that is based on primarily proven information, you have to hold high standards/burden for anything that is claimed as a fact or absolute. If you want to see the result of accepting everyone's opinion as basicly equal without supporting data, please go www.audioasylum.com and read for a while. If you let every lunatic with an opinion say whatever they desire and allow all opinions to be held equally, the result is a low quality source of information. If someone has an opinion or perception, they need to make it clear that is was a perception or speculation. They should know better than to claim as a fact, and if they don't, people who do know better should correct them if the quality of information on the forum is to remain high.

-Chris

 

[kay]

Those DBT tests between $80 and $1000 CD players - can anyone scan them by any chance? No ways for me to get those issues out here

 

[Buckle-meister]

If you want to see the result of accepting everyone's opinion as basicly equal..

Sorry WmAx, but I do hold everybodys opinion as being equal. There is not a single person better than another. As I wrote earlier, whether or not I choose to accept a persons opinion is my prerogative, and a seporate issue entirely.

If you let every lunatic with an opinion say whatever they desire and allow all opinions to be held equally, the result is a low quality source of information. If someone has an opinion or perception, they need to make it clear that is was a perception or speculation. They should know better than to claim as a fact, and if they don't, people who do know better should correct them if the quality of information on the forum is to remain high.

Aren't you taking a bit too much on yourself? Isn't it the moderators job to moderate?

Regards

 

[miklorsmith]

Seems to me

Shouldn't the subjectivists be able to hold a discussion, with the objectivists chiming in, without every discussion ending on the common subject of testing? This is an immovable object for all of us and let's just forget it.

Were we to replay this thread, people would express opinions, including the people making theoretical statements that no audibility exists. Anybody offering anything NEW to the discussion is welcome to attend.

Yes, this too is moderator material, but I'm trying to find a way we can all express ourselves without every discussion ending at an impasse with a minimum of real information exchanged.

I gave up at AA and I'm not looking for that, but nor do I think it prudent for "company policy" to reflect the "nothing matters" viewpoint.

 

[Buckle-meister]

This is an immovable object for all of us and let's just forget it.

Suits me. I'm quite flexible. WmAx has also indicated that he feels the same. However, by not resolving this discussion-in-the-guise-of-an-argument now, you do realise that it'll only appear again sooner or later?

Why not try to resolve it now? Then I can invite you all around for a drink at mine (friends only I'm afraid), we can all have a good debate whilst getting absolutely stinking drunk. Mtrycrafts, WmAx, you can prove to me that I'm just imagining everything, and I can let you bear witness to the fact that I'm not!

Now that sounds like a world I'd love to live in.

Regards

 

[sploo]

No one has shown an unquantifiable factor to affect audio in a repeatable valid double-blind test. While it is reasonable to pose 'if' type questions, it is not reasonable to move them beyond the point of highly-questionable theories unless substantial evidence exists. To accept a mysterious factor to exist in audio signals would be like accepting ghosts to be real, without scientifically valid data to back up the assertions. So, until such data is produced, it can not be accepted as a fact if an efficient system of discovery[this is all that science is] is desired.

I think Chris, in a world where millions of people live, die, and sometimes kill, on their belief in religions which have pretty much zero scientific backing, you're fighting a losing battle. Not that I don't agree with what you're saying.

Shouldn't the subjectivists be able to hold a discussion, with the objectivists chiming in, without every discussion ending on the common subject of testing? This is an immovable object for all of us and let's just forget it.

Fair point - but let me ask you this - if I made a claim on a subject which you knew well, and you were absolutely certain I was completely wrong, and was almost certainly misleading people who were asking for information, surely you'd say something?

Whilst I think WmAx and mtrycrafts are a little DBT obsessed, they do back up what they're saying with, what I understand to be, credible research. As WmAx pointed out in the text I've quoted, if we start believing in mysterious factors in audio that cannot be quantified, we might as well believe in anything.

Now, does that mean that there are no mysterious factors in audio? Well, the world of science thinks it knows it all, until the next discovery comes along and disproves our current assumptions. So, yes, there may well be stuff we can't currently measure.

However, if these things are audible, which is all that matters for us humans, then we do at least have a way to check for differences without bias - we're back to DBTs. Does take all the fun out of it though, don't it?

 

[miklorsmith]

Not Quite

I'm not proposing that anybody be silenced - quite the opposite. Sorry if it came across that way. What I'm saying is that these threads always end the same, to little real effect. This thread was about players and ended up about DBT. When the same things get repeated time after time after time after time, people who were interested in the original topic get tired and go away. Thus, the "interested" become disinterested and the fundamental point of the exchange is lost.

Everyone should be able to say whatever they want. But, the same message should not interrupt, sidetrack, and kill the essential point as has happened here. THAT is what silences the life and potential.