Are High End CD Players Overated?

MacManNM

MacManNM

Banned
tbewick said:
In a book I read by Rodger Driscoll, who has quite an impressive CV (lecturer, reviewer for Gramophone, consultant for Philips) 'Practical Hi-fi Sound', the major limiting factor are the speakers in most hi-fi systems.


Certainly things sound much better through headphones on my system, even though I use reasonable budget speakers (B&W DM601's).

This would lead me to believe that the CD player component is not the limiting factor in a hi-fi system, unless you're using speakers of distortion <0.1% (which maybe electrostatic speakers are capable of?). This is assuming that CD players do not introduce some distortion that cannot be measured, which of course would change things, and maybe explain why more expensive CD players are thought to sound better by some people.
Distortion in an audio system is cumulative.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
MacManNM said:
Different CD players will sound different. The more expensive units will tend to have tighter tolerance components, better quieter power supplies, and sharper roll off anti-alias filters. All of these will help improve the overall output of the unit. Anyone who thinks all players sound the same is totally clueless. Go buy a wave radio!

Then the differences can be measured, right? And the differences will be above the threshold of detection and JNDs, right?

Interesting how consisten the DBT data is. When it is not, the differences do show up on the bench. Simple
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
MacManNM said:
And they will sound almost identical when using an external DAC. But, why would someone spend 3K on a player and use an external DAC?

Simple. audiophiles can be convinced of most anything in audio. One only has to read AA for a while.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
MacManNM said:
Power supply, pickup electronics, clock accuracy.
.

Hoiw accurate the clock needs to be to sound different? Oh, that is jitter, no? It has to be a huge amount to be audible, yes. Benjamin and Gannon at Dolby Labs has a paper on this too.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Tempest said:
mtrycrafts,

I'm sorry to say this, but now I will be a snob. I'm sorry you can't hear the difference and obviously don't want to hear the difference. Who did the listening in these tests you talk about? People. People listen for different things out of their music. Some hear more detail than others. Some have better hearing than others. Some are trained to hear more detail and subtlety out of music than others. That's the reality of the situation. All I was giving was my experience and opinion; you come off defensive/paranoid.

If I did do all the blindfold test with my friends, you would some up with some other excuse not to at least consider anything else than what you are convinced of. You are the biased one and you rely on what other people say instead of your own experiences. :(

It is not for me to hear anything. Irrelevant what I can hear or not hear. You keep making the claims to hear things not there before. You came to this conclusion through flawed comparison protocol. If you want to convince anyone, you need credible evidence, not anecdotes, and stories or how the other listeners are deaf, or something and you are the only one who is not. Your claim, your demonstration. But, you don't need to convince anyone to enjoy your Cal Audio CD player; just enjoy it without testable claims. Easy.

Oh, you'd have to set it up electronically as well, level matched at 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz, to .1dB spl. Syncing of two players is not easy to 1mseconds or so, or it will give it away which is which player ;) Perhaps one of the players has a poor spec, who knows, euphonic?
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Caesar said:
Jesus all I wanted was a little friendly advice and opinions. I didn't wish to have this turn into a petty catfight among some of the participants!

I thought you got some friendly advice? ;)

No catfight, just some disagreements and tak9ing to task for some of the claims. That is how we learn, how we sort out the wheat from the chaff. :D
 
W

warnerwh

Full Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
I thought you got some friendly advice? ;)

No catfight, just some disagreements and tak9ing to task for some of the claims. That is how we learn, how we sort out the wheat from the chaff. :D
You can't see the forest for the trees. You're obviously miserable judging by the way you enjoy causing misery to others. What a wonderful goal. You're not here to help but to try to make others as miserable as yourself. As a matter of fact you make this site a turn off.
 
Tempest

Tempest

Junior Audioholic
mtrycrafts said:
Perhaps one of the players has a poor spec, who knows, euphonic?
I have a question...not debating anything! What do you guys mean by 'euphonic' concerning CD players? I'll take a guess...the CD player enhances certain ranges of sound; making it sound different from a player that just delivers the raw data. Is that about right, or is it something else?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Tempest said:
I have a question...not debating anything! What do you guys mean by 'euphonic' concerning CD players? I'll take a guess...the CD player enhances certain ranges of sound; making it sound different from a player that just delivers the raw data. Is that about right, or is it something else?
You are correct. Most likely a frequency response abberation would exist at a magnitude that is audible. Like a 'hardwired' tone control that is unadjustable. However, some DACs, such as one offered by hi-end company AudioNote takes the unusual(and absurd) step of leaving out a critical section of a proper DAC: the anti-alias filter. This will lead to high magnitude spectral artifacts within the audible passband due to inter-modulations of the spurious alias artifacts and audible band content.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
warnerwh said:
You can't see the forest for the trees. You're obviously miserable judging by the way you enjoy causing misery to others. What a wonderful goal. You're not here to help but to try to make others as miserable as yourself. As a matter of fact you make this site a turn off.
So, you would rather this board not tolerate challenging of claims and treat as if they were real/valid information by default?

I like this site: it's one of the few that allows unsupported claims to be challenged, thus ensuring an overall more rational overview as compared to most other sites of audio, such as Audio Asylum, Audio Review, etc..

-Chris
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
mtrycrafts said:
It is not for me to hear anything. Irrelevant what I can hear or not hear. You keep making the claims to hear things not there before. You came to this conclusion through flawed comparison protocol. If you want to convince anyone, you need credible evidence, not anecdotes, and stories or how the other listeners are deaf, or something and you are the only one who is not. Your claim, your demonstration. But, you don't need to convince anyone to enjoy your Cal Audio CD player; just enjoy it without testable claims. Easy.

Oh, you'd have to set it up electronically as well, level matched at 100Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz, to .1dB spl. Syncing of two players is not easy to 1mseconds or so, or it will give it away which is which player ;) Perhaps one of the players has a poor spec, who knows, euphonic?
mtrycrafts, no disrespect, but give it a break man. I agree with most of what you post and most of it has merit IMO. But endless repition in the same thread is anoying. You have made your points over and over here and in other threads. Like I said no disrespect, but that's how I see things.
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Now, now...

...let's not scare Caesar away!

To answer one question: "euphonic" literally means "good sounding" (the roots are Greek). In the context of audio equipment it means that the sound has been "tailored" to deviate from the technical ideal of flat frequency response and low distortion to "sound good". Note the use of quotes. Some people like a bit of rolloff in the high end or a bit of second harmonic distorion. In the case of high-end CD players (Wadia, for one example), often the former method is used to remove the alleged "harshness" or "edge" from CD's. This is generally done in the DAC stage. Some high-end CDPs even use tubes in their DAC output stages, which may also introduce some "euphonic" distortion! Many audiophiles like this effect without knowing the simple manner in which it is achieved, and the high-end marketers disguise it with airy prose. In effect, the player has built in EQ. So, such players will indeed sound "different" even in blind tests. Whether this difference is desirable is another matter. IMHO, that's what tone controls (however unfashionable they may be to the high-end) and equalizers are for.

WmAx and mtrycrafts, however, um, insistent they may sometimes seem, are basically right. Modern CDPs (indeed, all properly designed purely electronic audio components) are basically transparent, having flat frequency response and distortion below the threshold of human hearing, so unless they are purposely "euphonic" as above they'll sound the same in controlled listening tests, regardless of the sophistication, training, or hearing acuity of the listeners. "Properly designed" means simply that the units are level-matched to within 0.1dB (because small differences in loudness can be perceived and mistaken for quality differences), and the identities of the units are disguised from both the subjects and experimenter ("double-blind") to remove bias. Oh, and with CDPs you do have to synchronize them as pointed out above. However, a test with the same short passage played completely first on one, then the other might also have some validity for an informal test if synchronization isn't possible and if the delay between samples is short. But you can't fudge the level matching.

Also note that in a properly designed ABX test the subjects aren't asked to choose the "better" unit or make any qualitative judgement. They are only asked if the two sound the same or different.

The claim that distortion is cumulative is correct but is erroneously simplistic. The typically much greater distortion of speakers will mask a great deal of upstream distortion before it becomes noticable. On my "wisdom" page (see link in my sig) there is a link to a site with distortion samples you can play. If you listen, as I did, to the even-order ("good sounding") distortion samples thru typical mediocre PC accessory speakers you'll be amazed (or appalled?) at how much it takes before becoming noticeable!

Bottom line: high-end CDPs and other high end electronics can be nice to have for reasons other than sound -- like build quality, cosmetics, features -- but a Discman and a top of the line [insert brand here] will sound the same jacked in to the back of your receiver unless the high-end unit is purposely designed to introduce "good sounding" frequency response errors or distortion. If you seek better sound, the room and speakers are the first things to consider as said earlier.

Maybe -- just maybe -- there is a teeny tiny audible difference between some of the lowest- and highest- end DACs these days. But it's doubtful at best (I'm not losing sleep over it!). But direct digital links are indisputably equal. And jitter is a non-issue. The consumer audio press (especially Bob Harley of Stereophile) has made a mountain of that particular molehill.

The diminishing returns point is up to you!
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Nick250 said:
mtrycrafts, no disrespect, but give it a break man. I agree with most of what you post and most of it has merit IMO. But endless repition in the same thread is anoying. You have made your points over and over here and in other threads. Like I said no disrespect, but that's how I see things.

You are never disrespectful, here at least where I read your posts :D
 
S

Sleestack

Senior Audioholic
Well, I've decided to test the point of diminshing returns by ordering a $3500 Meridian G08 CD-only player. It will only be used in a dedicated headphone chain for the time being, but will eventually be put in a high end 2 channel system.

I'm obviously going to be using the analog balanced and regular outputs. It will be interseting to see how it compares to my current CD setup, which runs via SPDIF through a Musical Fidelity X-DAC v3/ X-10 v3/ PSU v3 chain. Without a doubt, the Musical Fidelity chain sounds better than relying solely on the DAC in my Denon 3910 or B&K 507 S2. I'm not sure if it is the upsampling DAC or the tube buffer, but the difference is not subtle.
 
C

cool miles

Audioholic Intern
x10 v3

I have one and use it with my DVD player. Your CD player you are buying should be good enough, not to find improvement using it. Otherwise, buying a new unit may not be helping you. The X 10 v3 provides a bit of tube, but requires to interconnection and you lose each time you add a connection. Try it out at the store before buying is a suggestion.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Sleestack said:
I'm not sure if it is the upsampling DAC or the tube buffer, but the difference is not subtle.
For the total price of $260 USD you could have purchased a Behringer TI1953 tube preamp with adjustable tube saturation controls and a Behringer SRC2496 studio ADC/DAC device which has user controllable resample rates and bit depth. These units also work in balanced or unbalanced configuration. The ability to control every parameter you allude to, at a reasonable price. The $3500 price of the 'audiophile' unit you ordered instead will include much less control/variability for you to dial-in. But, at least the audiophile unit you ordered, though far less versatile/powerful, will be much prettier looking than the studio equipment. :D

-Chris
 
S

Sleestack

Senior Audioholic
WmAx said:
For the total price of $260 USD you could have purchased a Behringer TI1953 tube preamp with adjustable tube saturation controls and a Behringer SRC2496 studio ADC/DAC device which has user controllable resample rates and bit depth. These units also work in balanced or unbalanced configuration. The ability to control every parameter you allude to, at a reasonable price. The $3500 price of the 'audiophile' unit you ordered instead will include much less control/variability for you to dial-in. But, at least the audiophile unit you ordered, though far less versatile/powerful, will be much prettier looking than the studio equipment. :D

-Chris
I'm not looking to control any parameters. I already use a tube buffer/DAC combo in the Musical Fidelty chain I currently have and am very happy with those products. I know nothing abot the Behringer products, but something tells me that I wouldn't want to make them a critical piece in a $30K 2 channel system.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Sleestack said:
I'm not looking to control any parameters. I already use a tube buffer/DAC combo in the Musical Fidelty chain I currently have and am very happy with those products.
SInce you were purchasing a new CD player, I assumed that you wanted something to be different. Maybe that's just looks? The gear(such as the tube preamplifier with variable saturation) I suggested can be tailored to be transparent or to audibly color the signal, if that's what you desired.

I know nothing abot the Behringer products, but something tells me that I wouldn't want to make them a critical piece in a $30K 2 channel system.
Right. The Behringer products use the same standard internal components as other high quality professional studio gear(The equipment that is used to mix/master the music.). The price(which I'm not sure why you mentioned) of your stereo is not important in regards to actual performance.

-Chris
 
C

cool miles

Audioholic Intern
You would not want a Musical Fidelity x 10 v3

in a 30k system either. The MF improves the gain of your CD player, so take it to a reputable store and play your CD plus buffer against better CD players and see if it improves your system that much. You will be disappointed I suspect as much better CD players will leave no prisoners. I suggest you try a Audio Research CD3 MK2, against the revolutionary x 10vs 3 which I own, and check the result. A good CD player does not need tubes. The tubes should be in the preamplifer and if it is helping anything, it is a substandard preamplifier. Sorry for being so hard on my waste of money.

David
 
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