Are High End CD Players Overated?

[cool miles]

Sad Truth

I think all the components in my system are well matched and good enough for me. Improving one part of it with something really expensive would do very little or nothing. That being said, I probably would hear an improvement with better speakers, but I have to draw the line somewhere

If you are happy with your system, then you should stop looking for better unless you have cash to burn . Once you buy better speakers etc., your system will become out of balance in your mind, and you will want a better AMP to move those speakers and then you will want better source and it goes around and around until you have my system.

 

[Tempest]

Missed the point

mtrycrafts,

I like a good debate, so don't take this the wrong way. You missed the point and quoted all the pointless crap I wrote before except the one sentence that actually mattered to me:

"I heard layers of music I had not heard before on CDs very familiar to me"

I'm not talking about something sounding better or different (brighter, richer, louder, etc.). I'm talking about suddenly realizing a pianist is playing some very cool, interesting stuff underneath Miles and his band...never heard that layer before...didn't know it existed. That is as legit and verifiable as it gets.

 

[cool miles]

mtrycrafts,

Tempest is right on. The better the CD player, the more information is available that was not available before. The other day, comparing two players, the soundstage on player one was primarily the piano player. On the second player, he was still quite present but so was the rest of the band including the second piano player!!!!!!!

 

[gene]

I think what is most interesting here is that people are debating on spending more money on a CD player to achieve better sonics. Yet nobody talks about investing to the component that actually affects the sound the most - THE ROOM!

Getting the loudspeaker to room integration is by far the most important system component that affects performance. A $5k system with a well placed speaker system in a good room will outperform a $20k system in a poor room anyday! It's important to not lose sight of that anytime one considers spending more money on electronics. Lets also not forget most people here run home theater and the DAC section in their processors/receivers are usually a notch above typical CD/DVD players so in all likelyhood you will be bypassing the most critical component of the player that affects sound quality.

 

[shokhead]

mtrycrafts,

Tempest is right on. The better the CD player, the more information is available that was not available before. The other day, comparing two players, the soundstage on player one was primarily the piano player. On the second player, he was still quite present but so was the rest of the band including the second piano player!!!!!!!

If your running the digital connection,then its not up to the player hows it going to sound.

 

[cool miles]

What is your point?

If your running the digital connection,then its not up to the player hows it going to sound.

We can argue over which is the most important piece in the system, but no one can argue that if the information coming forward is first rate, than the failure of that system is the information and not the rest of the gear.

If you hear a system that provides broad detail, you will understand what we are talking about. It requires a great preamplifier.

 

[cool miles]

A $5k system with a well placed speaker system in a good room will outperform a $20k system in a poor room anyday!

This sounds like the wishful feeling of someone with a so called $5k system that it can match a $20k system. If it does, the $20k system is way over priced. It sounds more like the $20k system coming down to the $5ks level rather than the other way around. It will not give the linear expression and detail we are talking about to the ability of the $5k system.

Rooms can be fixed appropriately and if a $20k system is not operating effectively, it would only be because the room is mamoth and the amplifier does not have the power. A quick fix.

It is the goal to buy your equipment and be able to listen in your normal living environment, as opposed to specialized rooms in peoples basements. Yes, the sound will be better, but when do you have time you listen?

 

[zumbo]

This sounds like the wishful feeling of someone with a so called $5k system that it can match a $20k system. If it does, the $20k system is way over priced. It sounds more like the $20k system coming down to the $5ks level rather than the other way around. It will not give the linear expression and detail we are talking about to the ability of the $5k system.

Rooms can be fixed appropriately and if a $20k system is not operating effectively, it would only be because the room is mamoth and the amplifier does not have the power. A quick fix.

It is the goal to buy your equipment and be able to listen in your normal living environment, as opposed to specialized rooms in peoples basements. Yes, the sound will be better, but when do you have time you listen?

Uh oh! Oh lord!

 

[Sleestack]

We can argue over which is the most important piece in the system, but no one can argue that if the information coming forward is first rate, than the failure of that system is the information and not the rest of the gear.

If you hear a system that provides broad detail, you will understand what we are talking about. It requires a great preamplifier.

Huh? He is talking about the digital signal. You are using a digital connection or an analog connection. If you use the digital, the signal has to be converted by the receiver (or external DAC). If you use an analog connection, your CD player's DAC has to do the conversion. If you use a digital connection, how is the CD player going to affect the sound of the digital signal it is transmitting to the external converter?

Undoubtedly, I heard major improvements when I decided to add an external DAC for my 2 channel music, however, I have yet to hear any difference when running different CD sources (Denon 3910 v Musci Hall cd player) through the same DAC.

 

[shokhead]

Cool Miles is confusing. LOL

 

[markw]

Wow.

I am amazed at how hard some people fight to not get the point.

I'll leave it up to y'all to figure out who they are.

But, if you can figure it out, it's probably not you.

 

[cool miles]

Digitial Reception

Frankly the theme was CD players. Sorry if I have offended the masses.

 

[gene]

This sounds like the wishful feeling of someone with a so called $5k system that it can match a $20k system. If it does, the $20k system is way over priced. It sounds more like the $20k system coming down to the $5ks level rather than the other way around. It will not give the linear expression and detail we are talking about to the ability of the $5k system.

Rooms can be fixed appropriately and if a $20k system is not operating effectively, it would only be because the room is mamoth and the amplifier does not have the power. A quick fix.

It is the goal to buy your equipment and be able to listen in your normal living environment, as opposed to specialized rooms in peoples basements. Yes, the sound will be better, but when do you have time you listen?

Wow sounds like someone came fresh from the AA forum The moment one thinks spending more money on gear guarantees better performance, is the moment the Audioholics community has to de-program the marketing brainwashing that has occurred.

 

[Nick250]

Frankly the theme was CD players. Sorry if I have offended the masses.

I do not believe you offended anyone, some of the members here disagreed with what you posted and they responded. Thats how internet forums work. Let me know if you need any more help with this.

Regards,

Nick

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts,

Tempest is right on. The better the CD player, the more information is available that was not available before. The other day, comparing two players, the soundstage on player one was primarily the piano player. On the second player, he was still quite present but so was the rest of the band including the second piano player!!!!!!!

Hogwash, plain and simple. Unless you can identify this myth under DBt listeing condition, it will remail another audio mythology. That simple.
His and your perception is just unreliable for this kind of differences from a sighted listeing.

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts,

I like a good debate, so don't take this the wrong way. You missed the point and quoted all the pointless crap I wrote before except the one sentence that actually mattered to me:

"I heard layers of music I had not heard before on CDs very familiar to me"

I'm not talking about something sounding better or different (brighter, richer, louder, etc.). I'm talking about suddenly realizing a pianist is playing some very cool, interesting stuff underneath Miles and his band.

Actually, I didn't miss anything. I find your claim meritless unless you can identify the two CD playes apart, consistently, under DBT listening. Your perception is biased and unreliable, even though your are a professional musician, when it comes to this claim. And no, your profession doesn't give you immunity from bias and unreliable perceptions. You should really try to find a copy of this article:

"The Grass is Always Greener in the Outakes", Gould, Glenn, High Fidelity, Aug 75, pg 54-59.

It tests musicians, conductors, and just plain people, how well they can differentiate. Sorry, you will not like the answers.

Historically, the odds do not favor you, unless that Cal Audio is a Euphonic CD player. Now if you have some evidence other than just your claim, I would be delighted to be convinced of my error.
Did you conduct a DBT listeing???

"Do All CD Players Sound the Same?", Masters, Ian G, Stereo review, Jan 1986, pg 50-57.

"6 Top CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?", Pholmann, Ken C., Stereo Review, Dec 1988, pg 76-84.

"The New CD Players: Can You Hear the Difference?", Phollmann, Ken C., Stereo Review, Oct 1990, pg 60-67.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 75, Jun/Jul 1999.

CD Player Comparison, The Sensible Sound, # 74, Apr/May 1999.


...never heard that layer before...didn't know it existed. That is as legit and verifiable as it gets

Nonsense. Again, that is a testable claim. But, it is not testable under sighted listening condition that you most assuredly did. Worthless to support this claim. If you want it verified, you need to do a DBT, period. That simple, not open to discussion. Your perception caused by your bias was fooled and is unreliable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

This sounds like the wishful feeling of someone with a so called $5k system that it can match a $20k system. If it does, the $20k system is way over priced. It sounds more like the $20k system coming down to the $5ks level rather than the other way around. It will not give the linear expression and detail we are talking about to the ability of the $5k system.

Rooms can be fixed appropriately and if a $20k system is not operating effectively, it would only be because the room is mamoth and the amplifier does not have the power. A quick fix.

It is the goal to buy your equipment and be able to listen in your normal living environment, as opposed to specialized rooms in peoples basements. Yes, the sound will be better, but when do you have time you listen?

I think you confuse cost of a system with performance. Bad mistake.

 

[mtrycrafts]

We can argue over which is the most important piece in the system, but no one can argue that if the information coming forward is first rate, than the failure of that system is the information and not the rest of the gear.

If you hear a system that provides broad detail, you will understand what we are talking about. It requires a great preamplifier.

Nonsense. Digital data on a CD is just that. The laser will not interpret it any other way from player to player, period, end of story.
I would recommend a bit of reading into CD technology, how it is encoded, decoded, etc, what is and what is hype, bs, mythology and voodoo in audio and particularly about CD players in this case.
An $80 RCA could not be differentiated from players costing $1000s, when the listener's biase was controlled for under DBT listeing condition.
Them are the facts.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I do not believe you offended anyone, some of the members here disagreed with what you posted and they responded. Thats how internet forums work. Let me know if you need any more help with this.

Regards,

Nick

I think you will enjoy this.
While this is not audio, do a google search for Penta water. Check the makers claims and some of the other hits debunking it. Audio is not alone and, it is only water

 

[markw]

Partially.

Frankly the theme was CD players. Sorry if I have offended the masses.

The initial question was the improvement in sound worth ditching his current mass market player to purchase a six thousand dollar player.

No one doubted that the analog sectons of CD players could be made to sound like the manufacturer wants but is that "true" sound and is it worth six thousand dollars?

So, with Gene's interjection of room acoustics I guess this changes the slant somewhat. Perhaps to something like this.

Which is the most cost effective way of improving my sound? Upgrading my mass market CD player to one costing six thousand dollars or optimizing my speaker placment and/or room interaction?

And, your take is?