Are High End CD Players Overated?

[Caesar]

Or perhaps a better term is sometimes "mismatched" in a system. Case in point. I own a Pioneer Elite VSX56-TXi Receiver as my pre and am using a Pio 45A Universal Player that does great with DVD-A and SACD recordings and still does fairly good with standard redbook CDS. (Must be those nice Burr Brown DACS)

I have heard from many that upgrading to a true "audiophile" grade player will improve regular cd listening enjoyment and audio quality tremendously.
I in fact have cast a curious eye on a Xindak Muse 3.0 Tube/Solid State player that uses 2 dual Phillips DACS and a E88CSS tube in the final audio output stage to achieve a "warmer sound".

The question is while the Xindak would be an improvement, how much of an improvement is the audio performance in a true high end player based on those additional dineros you need to spend to achieve a better sound!!
Would the purchase indeed be justified? Would the difference be "night and day" over the Pioneer 45A which is a steal at its price point once you get past the cheap build quality.

I would be interested in hearing some feedback on this. Better you than my wife! Thanks.

Pioneer VSX56-TXi
Pioneer 45A Universal Player
McIntosh MC-2100 (main channels)
Carver TFM 35x (rear surrounds)
Altec VOTT A-7 (mains)
Altec Valencias (mains)
Altec Model Fourteens (main rear surrounds)
Altec Santana 2's (back surrounds - driven by Pio)
Phoenix N-6 (center channel - driven by Pio)
Samson Servo 500 (sub amp)
Audio Control Crossover (70 hz)
2 - 12' DCM subs - custom built enclosures
Technics SH-9010 Universal EQ
XM-Radio
Scientific Atlanta 3250 HD Cable Box
Samsung 55' rear projection HDTV

 

[Tempest]

Pioneer 45A Universal Player

I've got a Pioneer 45A Universal Player and can't imagine getting better sound out of my SACD's or DVD's. You will have to spend a pile of money to get a truly noticeable difference...someone else might know better
That being said, if you have a lot of cash at your disposal, Krell and other products of that level will probably make a difference.

 

[markw]

somewhere between the least expensive and most expensive CD player...,

...there exists that mysterious place known as "The Point of Diminishing Returns".

This is the scariest place in all of Hi Fidom. It's the same for everybody yet it's different for everybody. Everybody knows it's there and yet everybody has to find it on their own. Rod Serling wouldn't even touch this one.

Enough sophistry. What I'm saying it that as you spend more money on a product, at some point spending more money does not necessarialy afford as much (some would go so far as to say any) improvement as it does when you spent less money.

Let's look at speakers for example. A pair of $250/pair speakers might sound all right. Odds are if you spend $500/pair you will realize significant improvement.

Likewise going to $1000/pair. There will still be noticible improvement athough probably not as much difference as the last jump .

Now, will going from the $1000/pair speakers to $2000/pair speakers result in an audiable improvement worth that addidional $1000? Probably, but now personal tastes and preferences come into play. You have to listen carefully to see if simply "different" is really "better".

But, once you go above the $2000/pair figure the differences will be more subtle. IOW, by throwings another $2000/pair into the speakers, the improvement will probably not be as drastic as that first jump from $250 to $500.

IOW, at some point, the improvements will not be worth the extra expenditure.

I chose speakers because anybody will acknowledge that they sound different and that those differences be easily discerned. If they say not, they they are, pure and simple, a fool. Not everyone believes in night and day differences in CD players.

IMNSHO, the point of diminishing returns on CD players and the like is much less apparant and much lower than that of speakers, particularly when you factor in that many use the DAC in their receivers as opposed to that in the players themselves.

One thing to keep in mind, and this applies mainly to when you the DACs in the CD player and feed an analog signal to your amp, is that these things can be designed for a signature sound. They can purposly emphasize or attenuate certain ranges in order to make it's sound more mellow, brighter, bassy or antiseptic, etc, etc.... Now, wether or not this is what you want, then you might reconsider a line I posted above that I will restate here. You have to listen carefully to see if simply "different" is really "better".

...good luck...

 

[shokhead]

I've got a Pioneer 45A Universal Player and can't imagine getting better sound out of my SACD's or DVD's. You will have to spend a pile of money to get a truly noticeable difference...someone else might know better
That being said, if you have a lot of cash at your disposal, Krell and other products of that level will probably make a difference.

But if its mostly cd's and dvd's and your using the dig connection,the player doesnt make much difference,right?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

If you use the digital connections, a $6000 tubed shanling CD player will sound just like a $5 Sony CDP-351 you bought used at a pawnshop.

 

[BobbyT]

Ceasar since you have a 56Txi you could see a noticeable improvement upgrading to a 49Avi or 59Avi since you could use the i link.

 

[Caesar]

Thanks for everybodys input. The point of diminishing returns may apply here!
I am looking into the 47Ai with the I Link connection as a possible upgrade over my 45A. I have heard some good feedback on the improvements using the I Link connection and the upgrade would be within reach of the common man.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That being said, if you have a lot of cash at your disposal, Krell and other products of that level will probably make a difference.

Or not make a difference

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have heard from many that upgrading to a true "audiophile" grade player will improve regular cd listening enjoyment and audio quality tremendously.

Or, what you heard was just audio hype, mythology, or bs. CD players or many other audio components are given mystical powers at times, coming with higher costs. But, that is how audio is, or many consumer marketplace. Marketeers prey on gullible consumers and once the wives tale is started, nothing will stop it, not so far

So, be careful what you accept as fact in the consumer audio marketplace, this CD hype being one of them

 

[Tempest]

Possibly...

Or not make a difference

When I first got into audio, I had a pretty decent Denon CD player. One day, I found a California Audio Labs CD player for about $300 (retail $700). I was told I could return it if I didn't hear a difference. I still have it.

The difference was astonishing in subtle ways. Many of my remastered jazz and classical CDs came to life and I heard many more layers of music. An example of this: really quiet 'background' piano lines had much more clarity and presence.

I'm sure this is old news and I'm new here, but generally I've found that a great system has no glaring weakness. Adding a $2,000 DVD player to my current system will probably not make enough of a difference to justify violating my savings.

In other words, a $20,000 system sounds amazing because every component is better than what I have.

 

[markw]

Did you use the internal DAC?

One thing to keep in mind, and this applies mainly to when you the DACs in the CD player and feed an analog signal to your amp, is that these things can be designed for a signature sound. They can purposly emphasize or attenuate certain ranges in order to make it's sound more mellow, brighter, bassy or antiseptic, etc, etc.... Now, wether or not this is what you want, then you might reconsider a line I posted above that I will restate here. You have to listen carefully to see if simply "different" is really "better".

Up to the DAC it's just ones and zeroes. From there on, anything goes.

 

[mtrycrafts]

When I first got into audio, I had a pretty decent Denon CD player. One day, I found a California Audio Labs CD player for about $300 (retail $700). I was told I could return it if I didn't hear a difference. I still have it.

Well, maybe you perceived a difference, or maybe you didn't hear anything.
Maybe that CD player was designed to be euphonic, or maybe not.
Humans evolved to look for differences, inate to us. And, humans are gullible to boot.
So, to get to the bottom of the issue of sonic differences, how did you compare the two player? That is very important if you are interested in knowing if audible differences exists. Did you compare it double blind? Levels matched? If not, your perception is questionable and unreliable.

Not long ago, The $ensible $ound did a DBT on a $80 RCA changer against players costing $1000s. No audible differences could be demonstrated by the listeners. In the past, while some were found to be different, it was traced to poor design and was measurable.

 

[Tempest]

Well......

Actually, I could hear a major difference and so could a couple friends. We are all professional classical musicians and are pretty demanding with our audio equipment. Please don’t take this as being arrogant/superior…I really don't have that attitude!

Obviously, I probably wouldn’t hear much or any difference with my Ozzy CDs (no offence to Ozzy…I listen to more Rock/Metal than classical). I auditioned the California Audio Labs CD player with several jazz and classical cds before deciding to keep it…I don’t have money to throw away. Like I said before, I heard layers of music I had not heard before on CDs very familiar to me (Miles Davis/Kind of Blue was the best example of this).

Perhaps the CD player I owned at that point wasn't very good. I think it is true that one can get a lot of quality for very little money compared to 5/10 years ago and this was at least 5 years ago.

 

[zumbo]

OK. I'll bite.

I have a Yamaha S-840 dvd/dvd-a player connected via a toslink.

I also have a Yamaha CDC-645 5-disc player with analog connections.

The CDC-645 clearly outperforms the S-840 with a basic music cd. Could be the tos. I have never made an analog connection on the dvd player to see if it would sound as good as the cd player, I just use the cd player.

 

[cool miles]

Is there a difference?

In other words, a $20,000 system sounds amazing because every component is better than what I have.

Interesting comment as some $20,000 systems sound better than others. Some equipment provide value and some just cost more. I dare someone to show the significance between a $500 NAD CD player and the field up into around $2500 - $3000. When you are listening, truly tell me you hear a big difference. It takes that much to start having the ingrediants to start to provide some meaningful players. This does not stop you from buying used better players from better companies, but until you can afford a few of the more expensive players, why not put your money into preamps, and speakers?

 

[markw]

Question, Zumbo.

OK. I'll bite.

I have a Yamaha S-840 dvd/dvd-a player connected via a toslink.

I also have a Yamaha CDC-645 5-disc player with analog connections.

The CDC-645 clearly outperforms the S-840 with a basic music cd. Could be the tos. I have never made an analog connection on the dvd player to see if it would sound as good as the cd player, I just use the cd player.

Question: Waddaya get when you use a red/white analog connect on a DVD player?

Answer: A CD player!

Give it a try. You might be surprised. I have a Toshiba 2805 5 disc DVD player and have the digital coax going to a digital input for my movies and an analog interconnect from that same unit going to an analog input for redbook CD's on the same receivers.

I know it sounds redundant and I could use the DVD input for either but it keeps the switching logical simple for the lil' lady. I tried the CD both waysand they sound pretty much the same to me either way. ...and that's one less piece ofgear I need in the rack.

 

[Tempest]

Good point!

Interesting comment as some $20,000 systems sound better than others. Some equipment provide value and some just cost more. I dare someone to show the significance between a $500 NAD CD player and the field up into around $2500 - $3000. When you are listening, truly tell me you hear a big difference. It takes that much to start having the ingrediants to start to provide some meaningful players. This does not stop you from buying used better players from better companies, but until you can afford a few of the more expensive players, why not put your money into preamps, and speakers?

I think all the components in my system are well matched and good enough for me. Improving one part of it with something really expensive would do very little or nothing. That being said, I probably would hear an improvement with better speakers, but I have to draw the line somewhere

 

[Caesar]

Many of us have lost are ability to draw the line. Is that why they call it Audioholics?!!

 

[zumbo]

Question: Waddaya get when you use a red/white analog connect on a DVD player?

Answer: A CD player!

Give it a try. You might be surprised. I have a Toshiba 2805 5 disc DVD player and have the digital coax going to a digital input for my movies and an analog interconnect from that same unit going to an analog input for redbook CD's on the same receivers.

I know it sounds redundant and I could use the DVD input for either but it keeps the switching logical simple for the lil' lady. I tried the CD both waysand they sound pretty much the same to me either way. ...and that's one less piece ofgear I need in the rack.

I guess, but the only reason I didn't worry about trying the dvd player with analog connections is because my cd player is a 5-disc. So, I enjoy random listening from time-to-time.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually, I could hear a major difference and so could a couple friends.

Well, this is your and their claims, yes. But, as I outlined in my post, unless you do a double blind comparison to remove your biases from influencing your perception and fooling your senses, you will never know you can actually hear a difference in CD players. Them are the facts, incontestable.



We are all professional classical musicians and are pretty demanding with our audio equipment. Please don’t take this as being arrogant/superior…I really don't have that attitude!

No, you are not being arrogant, but you are trying to tell me that because you are a classical musician, you are immune from bias in comparing two CD players? Hardly. And no, you cannot turn it on or off at will. those are facts too After all, human being are gullible beings and our senses are fooled all the time. Not hard.

Obviously, I probably wouldn’t hear much or any difference with my Ozzy CDs (no offence to Ozzy…I listen to more Rock/Metal than classical). I auditioned the California Audio Labs CD player with several jazz and classical cds before deciding to keep it…I don’t have money to throw away. Like I said before, I heard layers of music I had not heard before on CDs very familiar to me (Miles Davis/Kind of Blue was the best example of this).

Like I said, unless you compare under bias controlled conditions, you are speculating what you perceived. Them are facts too.
The Cal Audio player could be euphonic too, who knows. You certainly don't at this point in the investigation.

Perhaps the CD player I owned at that point wasn't very good. I think it is true that one can get a lot of quality for very little money compared to 5/10 years ago and this was at least 5 years ago.
CD playes have been very good for some time now