cable 'break in' ...........

killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
:D And how well does the guy measure? Be sure it's DBT, there are some thing neither of you wants to see.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
How well do they measure in the chamber of silence?
Or, that is not important?;)
Omni mic 2, I believe was the measurement device and the chamber of silence thing ... get real. Who has access to that in the DIY community? Dennis Murphy designs speakers without the benefit of an anechoic chamber also. I'm not trying to convince you these speakers sounded good. I'm relaying the news that his speakers were well regarded by a community of folks passionate about building original and established designs. Or, is that not important? :p

BTW MIT's aren't cables. Anything with a box of components in the middle is something else entirely.
I'm talking about speaker cables. Sorry for getting the name wrong. That's my mistake. Thanks for the heads up. :oops: This guy also buys into the Class A amp thing as well. 10,000 lbs of molten lava in a big black box ... now that's a warm sound.

:D And how well does the guy measure? Be sure it's DBT, there are some thing neither of you wants to see.
I saw him helping out another DIY'er with an original design. It was kind of a big deal as the guy needing help traveled from NH to RI with big speakers to have this guy measure and recommend reversing the tweeter polarity to even out the frequency response. It worked. I was impressed. I had never seen anything measured before.
 
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Darenwh

Darenwh

Audioholic
I sure wish I could find who is breaking into my cables. I suspect they are stealing the copper...
I would try to find a copper two to wait and catch the thief in the act but I suspect the thief would just steal that copper too...
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
I've lived and listened to so many cables over the years, the only ones I've ever heard that sounded different were really thin ones that were too small for the power going through them, they got warm, and a set of huge cables that had very high capacitance, and my amp really wasn't happy with them.

Now Magic Bricks and rocks, they really made a difference! :p
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I would not dismiss out of hand the experiences of those who say cable break-in can have an audible effect.

Cables have capacitance, inductance and resistance. All are measurable, and electrically form what is referred to as an LCR network.

The most common form of LCR network is a passive loudspeaker crossover.

Taking capacitance alone, it is known to vary based on age. If you research the current literature from capacitor manufacturers, you will learn that they leave the factory at a different value than they are expected to perform at in-circuit by the end user. The effect is partly age alone, and partly the "forming" of a capacitor once installed in a circuit excited by AC signals (audio waveforms).

For the age aspect, the caps leave the factory at a value that is expected to equal the marked specification after shipping and distribution and final delivery to commercial end users; most capacitor manufacturers assume this will take three months. So, the capacitor should meet spec after three months.

That is partly why most capacitors are rated at x value +/- 20%. Although the manufacturer expects them to meet the rated value at a much tighter spec at the three month period, if measured earlier or if measured after a prolonged period in the distributor's inventory, they will meet the +/- 20% spec but may not be equal to the value measured at three months.

Once formed, the value generally remains consistent over time at the operating temperature typical of the component they are used in.

Both effects could possibly be encountered by a cable "break-in" procedure.

The effect is assumed to be subtle and may not be evident in all systems, depending on the resolution capability of the system. The type of dielectric used and the geometry of the cable in question, as both greatly affect capacitance, may result in more or less change in the values and perhaps the sonics.

There are two other factors that may come into play with regard to cable break-in. They both are brain-related rather than empirically determined effects.

One is our memory of sound, which can be quite powerful (one day you may hear "something" that induces to you investigate if something is wrong with your gear, for example) but is not equally discerned by different individuals. Put another way, some people won't notice changes in sonics over time while others will.

The first group is unlikely to discern any "break-in" phenomena, whether it exists or does not exist. The second group is more likely to discern such phenomena if it indeed does exist.

The second factor is another brain-related condition. Whether we admit it or not, our minds work inside what is referred to as a "Belief System". It is formed within our subconscious as a sort of "short cut" that reduces the processing needed to carry on day-to-day. As anyone who has struggled to study a difficult subject in school, or to solve a puzzle, or take an exam, thinking is "hard" and takes energy. The brain is always looking for ways to reduce the energy it consumes by difficult thought.

Thus over time we form Belief Systems that control our behaviour day-to-day. The Belief System allows us to make decisions without reverting to difficult, energy consuming thought, by simply applying a sort of rule to the problem, the rule based on previous experience.

Thus if your Belief System is based on experience whereby you have not noticed much (or any) difference in cables, and thus holds that cables "do not matter" then you are unlikely to hear a difference during or after a cable break-in period, regardless of the actual effect.

Similarly, if your Belief System involves an experience in the past whereby you did hear a difference while auditioning a change involving only a cable, you are more likely to accept the idea that cable break-in might affect performance.

Finally there is consumer Psychology whereby we want to believe we have made good decisions and therefore we may want to believe we hear an improvement with a new purchase or DIY assembly. That does not dismiss the possibility there is an actual change, but it biases us towards expecting one.

Cable of differing construction do not measure identically; that is well established. What is not well established is whether the differences are audible, or at least audible in a high resolution system.

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest they are, but there are those that say they have not experienced any changes. It is paramount that any audition be under good practice, such as cleaning connectors with DeOxit during the audition, on both the existing cable and the new candidate, and the components connected, as any new cable is likely to be in good condition and any existing cable is likely to suffer some layers of environmental or corrosive deterioration. Such deterioration is most certainly measurable and is likely to be audible, depending of course on the level of deterioration.

In the end it is up to the end user to determine what, exactly, they prefer to use in their own systems, and what, exactly, they feel represents good value in interconnects or loudspeaker cables. Do not rely on others to determine your preference; find out for yourself and trust your ears, whether they tell you there is not, or is, any effect. Your sound system is not built to please some far-off reviewer or manufacturer, it should always be built to please you alone.

A good reseller should allow you to audition any interconnect with a no or low-charge return policy. Some online resellers also offer an audition period. Friends may have cable you could swap out to see if you hear any differences or ideally, any improvement.

We must always keep in mind that the entire purpose of a system is to produce sound, typically music, in a way that pleases us. If it doesn't please us, it is of no earthly use.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I would not dismiss out of hand the experiences of those who say cable break-in can have an audible effect.

Cables have capacitance, inductance and resistance. All are measurable, and electrically form what is referred to as an LCR network.
Yep, you don't have to. You may believe anything you want.

Do you have any empirical evidence that any of those values change over time in a cable??? Better be credible, not speculation about leakage.



Thus over time we form Belief Systems that control our behaviour day-to-day.
It would be much better to know than to believe.


Finally there is consumer Psychology .
Don't think you know much about that, especially when it comes to audio perceptions and beliefs.

A good reseller should allow you to audition any interconnect ....
After all, he is in business to make money.
But, as soon as the evidence presents itself for this cable nonsense, may reconsider.
In the meantime there are more important things to consider in audio that this silliness.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Yep, you don't have to. You may believe anything you want.

Do you have any empirical evidence that any of those values change over time in a cable??? Better be credible, not speculation about leakage.





It would be much better to know than to believe.



Don't think you know much about that, especially when it comes to audio perceptions and beliefs.


After all, he is in business to make money.
But, as soon as the evidence presents itself for this cable nonsense, may reconsider.
In the meantime there are more important things to consider in audio that this silliness.
A cable exhibits capacitance. All capacitors change value over time when not charged by a current, all capacitors require forming with a current to fix the capacitive value. The "empirical evidence" is so vast that to be unaware of the evidence simply means that the literature has not been examined.

It's in every EE textbook, countless papers, and academic studies. Capacitor manufacturers, from the mundane to the boutique, do not disagree amongst themselves regarding the empirical evidence. The most adamant proponents amongst EE's whom hold that the circuit itself and alone determines performance do not disagree on this point.

I said nothing about leakage. Nor did I advocate for or against whether cable break-in is real or imagined. I merely pointed out some possible mechanisms that may, or may not, create an audible effect in a given listener's perception. Do not construct straw man arguments.

I did not at any time suggest there is "proof" that these factors will certainly be evident in an interconnect, I only said that it's possible. I assume from your post you adhere to the idea that it is impossible. Your input is welcome and certainly you are free to advocate any position you wish, as am I.

As for "it would be much better to know than to believe", it is not borne out by human behaviour. People claim to "know" that UFOs exist, but in reality they simply "believe" they exist. When we believe something we act as if it were true; in fact we cannot act as if we believe it is not true. If you "believe" your lover is cheating on you you will act as if he or she was cheating on you regardless of the actual facts. That is just the way we are built, and it can't be over-ridden unless something happens to positively change our belief.

I have no idea what you mean regarding your comment about Consumer Psychology, but the field is well established, in particular by retailers and advertisers, and supported by academia, and was a mature science by the 1960's. Nothing learned in the meantime changes those old conclusions.

There may well be "more important" things to consider in audio. However, 'if cable break-in is real or imagined' is the actual topic of the thread, thus it's reasonable to expect comment on it.
 
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killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
The second factor is another brain-related condition. Whether we admit it or not, our minds work inside what is referred to as a "Belief System". It is formed within our subconscious as a sort of "short cut" that reduces the processing needed to carry on day-to-day. As anyone who has struggled to study a difficult subject in school, or to solve a puzzle, or take an exam, thinking is "hard" and takes energy. The brain is always looking for ways to reduce the energy it consumes by difficult thought.

Thus over time we form Belief Systems that control our behaviour day-to-day. The Belief System allows us to make decisions without reverting to difficult, energy consuming thought, by simply applying a sort of rule to the problem, the rule based on previous experience.

Thus if your Belief System is based on experience whereby you have not noticed much (or any) difference in cables, and thus holds that cables "do not matter" then you are unlikely to hear a difference during or after a cable break-in period, regardless of the actual effect.

Similarly, if your Belief System involves an experience in the past whereby you did hear a difference while auditioning a change involving only a cable, you are more likely to accept the idea that cable break-in might affect performance.
Perhaps stick with EE as this "belief system" is complete gibberish. You may be well versed in the EE field and thus throwing in some "self-help" grade references from Oprah Show psychology will only discredit your EE knowledge.

The reason I write this is because I don't think solid arguments need flawed examples or explanations.

What you gently brushed against from afar, to be polite, is the process of forming of the stereotypes. At the same time this has nothing to do with belief and can't be used to further the debate on cable break in. It is even further flawed with your explanations of difficult puzzles and subjects in school.

Noticing that human thought process is very susceptible to forming stereotypes lead scientists (not only psychologists, but many of those who have evolution as middle ground) to assume that this mechanism must have been useful for human species to strive.

The simplest way of explaining is this: instead of trying to discern nuances in a roar of a predator animal in order to identify which one it is, all roars are processed as danger and "flight or fight" is engaged. The time needed to discern whether it is really a threat can be fatal. "Energy consuming" is not the issue here at all, as one might argue that it might even save energy to not run from a donkey. This mechanism eliminates risk, this is its primary function. One more reason why it is utterly useless in listening among cables comfortably plunged into the armchair with no threat whatsoever.

Also it was never even proposed that the fact that all roars fall into "danger" category in any way imply you hear no difference among them. On the contrary, even when you don't know what it is, you're still able to say what it's not. So, after some time you might even stop running from donkeys and this is desirable in the end.

For this mechanism experience is not needed, this is passed on and can be detected in people who never met with the danger. People run from snakes when they first see them. People who never fell from height are afraid from height...

The entire "psychology" section of your post boils down to something similar to "if you look for it you'll find it", which brings no clarity to the topic as we are back on the beginning asking ourselves who is wrong; people who expect difference and hear it or people who expect no difference and don't hear it, is it those looking for difference or those looking for no difference. Both will not be correct.

For your purpose you might look for an experiment with a match box filled with led. This is where former knowledge forms your action and almost no one ever managed to lift this matchbox in first go, unless he was let in on it. IMPORTANT - they were ALL able to lift it the next time they tried. No idiot ever came forth who tried over and over again while applying the same amount of strength needed to lift the plain matchbox.
 
Craig Gordon

Craig Gordon

Junior Audioholic
Imagine the difficulty in designing a cable so that after break in occurs, the cable sounds the way you intended from the start. The reverse engineering must be incredible. So yeah, that's why they are so expensive. Less expensive cables don't need break in because they don't need to be reverse engineered. It all makes perfect sense.

I really cant ever fully enjoy my audio system because even though all components are surely broken in by now, I always have this nagging feeling that I didn't break them in exactly right. Like should I break them in at night or during the day? Oh well.

Whats even more frustrating is that I can't really hear anything above 12K hz so I know my ears are not the ones to decide. But I know I can trust the cable companies to help me make the right decision. I remember during the 80's when my hearing was perfect and I was first introduced to Randall Research cables. "Isn't the difference amazing?" the audio expert asked me. I couldnt hear any difference at all. But of course I answered "yes, wow, it's amazing!" cuz I didnt want to sound uneducated, unrefined, tone deaf, and foolish. :rolleyes:
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I would not dismiss out of hand the experiences of those who say cable break-in can have an audible effect.

Cables have capacitance, inductance and resistance. All are measurable, and electrically form what is referred to as an LCR network.

The most common form of LCR network is a passive loudspeaker crossover.

Taking capacitance alone, it is known to vary based on age. If you research the current literature from capacitor manufacturers, you will learn that they leave the factory at a different value than they are expected to perform at in-circuit by the end user. The effect is partly age alone, and partly the "forming" of a capacitor once installed in a circuit excited by AC signals (audio waveforms).

For the age aspect, the caps leave the factory at a value that is expected to equal the marked specification after shipping and distribution and final delivery to commercial end users; most capacitor manufacturers assume this will take three months. So, the capacitor should meet spec after three months.

That is partly why most capacitors are rated at x value +/- 20%. Although the manufacturer expects them to meet the rated value at a much tighter spec at the three month period, if measured earlier or if measured after a prolonged period in the distributor's inventory, they will meet the +/- 20% spec but may not be equal to the value measured at three months.

Once formed, the value generally remains consistent over time at the operating temperature typical of the component they are used in.

Both effects could possibly be encountered by a cable "break-in" procedure.

The effect is assumed to be subtle and may not be evident in all systems, depending on the resolution capability of the system. The type of dielectric used and the geometry of the cable in question, as both greatly affect capacitance, may result in more or less change in the values and perhaps the sonics.
This is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention forming in crossover caps or wire, in my 40+ years dealing with audio, electronics and in discussing these topics with EEs. In power supply caps, sure- they're exposed to much higher voltages and sometimes, the current is close to the upper limit of their operating range but when we're dealing with speaker wire, the voltage and current limits are rarely discussed except WRT gauge and length. Even then, it's not really presented as voltage & current limits, more about resistance and voltage drop (which are related).

Now, if someone can show that low level signal carrying cables need to break in AND show how the small voltage & current affect the wire, I would like to see it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Imagine the difficulty in designing a cable so that after break in occurs, the cable sounds the way you intended from the start. The reverse engineering must be incredible. So yeah, that's why they are so expensive. Less expensive cables don't need break in because they don't need to be reverse engineered. It all makes perfect sense.

I really cant ever fully enjoy my audio system because even though all components are surely broken in by now, I always have this nagging feeling that I didn't break them in exactly right. Like should I break them in at night or during the day? Oh well.

Whats even more frustrating is that I can't really hear anything above 12K hz so I know my ears are not the ones to decide. But I know I can trust the cable companies to help me make the right decision. I remember during the 80's when my hearing was perfect and I was first introduced to Randall Research cables. "Isn't the difference amazing?" the audio expert asked me. I couldnt hear any difference at all. But of course I answered "yes, wow, it's amazing!" cuz I didnt want to sound uneducated, unrefined, tone deaf, and foolish. :rolleyes:
Reverse engineering a cable to perform a certain way might be done by simply making several cables in slightly different ways, measuring the characteristics and using them before re-measuring. If they fall within the acceptable range for their purposes, they continue to manufacture the cables in that way and come up with a marketing campaign. Whether this includes dipping the cables in BS is up to the manufacturer.

Your last sentence is something that is relied on in sales of audio equipment and has been for a long time. The more it costs, the more people want to see/hear/feel/notice a difference after the sale. Pre-sale, these feelings are somewhat different, but it's more similar to wanting to be seen as 'worthy'. Post sale, it's a matter of wanting to believe that the money was well-spent.
 
Dale Doback

Dale Doback

Junior Audioholic
Imagine the difficulty in designing a cable so that after break in occurs, the cable sounds the way you intended from the start. The reverse engineering must be incredible. So yeah, that's why they are so expensive. Less expensive cables don't need break in because they don't need to be reverse engineered. It all makes perfect sense.

I really can't ever fully enjoy my audio system because even though all components are surely broken in by now, I always have this nagging feeling that I didn't break them in exactly right. Like should I break them in at night or during the day? Oh well.

Whats even more frustrating is that I can't really hear anything above 12 Khz so I know my ears are not the ones to decide. But I know I can trust the cable companies to help me make the right decision. I remember during the 80's when my hearing was perfect and I was first introduced to Randall Research cables. "Isn't the difference amazing?" the audio expert asked me. I couldn't hear any difference at all. But of course I answered "yes, wow, it's amazing!" cuz I didn't want to sound uneducated, unrefined, tone deaf, and foolish. :rolleyes:
And, you didn't spend near enough $$$ on your cables. You disgusting lowlife. lol :p
 
Craig Gordon

Craig Gordon

Junior Audioholic
Reverse engineering a cable to perform a certain way might be done by simply making several cables in slightly different ways, measuring the characteristics and using them before re-measuring. If they fall within the acceptable range for their purposes, they continue to manufacture the cables in that way and come up with a marketing campaign. Whether this includes dipping the cables in BS is up to the manufacturer.

Your last sentence is something that is relied on in sales of audio equipment and has been for a long time. The more it costs, the more people want to see/hear/feel/notice a difference after the sale. Pre-sale, these feelings are somewhat different, but it's more similar to wanting to be seen as 'worthy'. Post sale, it's a matter of wanting to believe that the money was well-spent.
You used logic when I was trying to make an intentionally silly post. Touche' :)
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
As a moderator here my job is manifold:

1. Promote reasonably courteous discourse. If you are way out there with unsupportable claims sorry. You're going to get some flack.
jinjuku:
I just read this thread from the beginning. Lots of laughs of course. You job as moderator being "manifold" probably got the best laugh. That gave me a set of mental images that made me smile.

I just wanted to give you props for being a moderator and doing a pretty good job. "Promote reasonably courteous discourse" is a wonderful goal. I try and do the same by deleting 1/2 of my posts before I push the button. Writing a piece of caustic text is good therapy. Deleting it 30 minutes later before you post it is also good therapy.

What you can't see is how much text from here on down I have deleted, and how many times I have deleted it. It was a bunch. Keep up the good work promoting "courteous discourse". We need it.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
A cable exhibits capacitance. ....
You still have yet to show capacitance or inductance or resistance change in cables caused by any time on the usage clock. We are waiting for this credible evidence.
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
A good reality check would be:
Does a new 10 foot cable sound significantly different than a new 11 foot cable of the same model number? I don't think so.

That was a 10% change in R,L,C values. It's extremely unlikely that burn-in will cause even a 1% change in R,L,C values.
No chance at all of hearing a difference.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
A good reality check would be:
Does a new 10 foot cable sound significantly different than a new 11 foot cable of the same model number? I don't think so.

That was a 10% change in R,L,C values. It's extremely unlikely that burn-in will cause even a 1% change in R,L,C values.
No chance at all of hearing a difference.
speedskater
That's probably the best de-bunk example I have seen. I wonder why we haven't seen this idea before?
Simple, practical examples provide clarity because they make the concepts pop.
This one works for me. I'm sure, 100% sure, that folks who believe that a piece of straight wire will act like a capacitor will pooh-pooh such a feeble attempt to present an illustration.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
speedskater
That's probably the best de-bunk example I have seen. I wonder why we haven't seen this idea before?
....
Perhaps no one claimed an LCR change in cables caused by burn in?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
A cable exhibits capacitance. All capacitors change value over time when not charged by a current, all capacitors require forming with a current to fix the capacitive value. The "empirical evidence" is so vast that to be unaware of the evidence simply means that the literature has not been examined.

It's in every EE textbook, countless papers, and academic studies. Capacitor manufacturers, from the mundane to the boutique, do not disagree amongst themselves regarding the empirical evidence. The most adamant proponents amongst EE's whom hold that the circuit itself and alone determines performance do not disagree on this point.

I said nothing about leakage. Nor did I advocate for or against whether cable break-in is real or imagined. I merely pointed out some possible mechanisms that may, or may not, create an audible effect in a given listener's perception. Do not construct straw man arguments.

I did not at any time suggest there is "proof" that these factors will certainly be evident in an interconnect, I only said that it's possible. I assume from your post you adhere to the idea that it is impossible. Your input is welcome and certainly you are free to advocate any position you wish, as am I.

As for "it would be much better to know than to believe", it is not borne out by human behaviour. People claim to "know" that UFOs exist, but in reality they simply "believe" they exist. When we believe something we act as if it were true; in fact we cannot act as if we believe it is not true. If you "believe" your lover is cheating on you you will act as if he or she was cheating on you regardless of the actual facts. That is just the way we are built, and it can't be over-ridden unless something happens to positively change our belief.

I have no idea what you mean regarding your comment about Consumer Psychology, but the field is well established, in particular by retailers and advertisers, and supported by academia, and was a mature science by the 1960's. Nothing learned in the meantime changes those old conclusions.

There may well be "more important" things to consider in audio. However, 'if cable break-in is real or imagined' is the actual topic of the thread, thus it's reasonable to expect comment on it.
So tell us about your cables/interconnects under evaluation...
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
You used logic when I was trying to make an intentionally silly post. Touche' :)
That may be due to the fact that nobody worried about how cables sounded until some knob decided that un-measurable differences would make huge audible improvements in the sound by using verbage that seemed plausible to people who didn't understand it, but wanted others to think they did. Read the white papers from cable manufacturers and the IEEE- that's where you'll find facts, not in product marketing department's drivel.

I have been in the audio business for around 40 years and the BS gets deeper every year. I'll be glad to finally wash my boots when I retire.
 
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