cable 'break in' ...........

[KenM10759]

Every time this subject comes up, I thank my creator for giving my ears that can be satisfied with the cables I make or the cheap ones I buy. When I go to my favorite audio dealer's store, they treat me with respect so we now avoid discussions about the Audioquest and Nordost products they stock and sell. I only had to tell them once that I didn't hear any difference in pace and rhythm that they worked so hard to describe to me. They no longer bring it up.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention forming in crossover caps or wire, in my 40+ years dealing with audio, electronics and in discussing these topics with EEs. In power supply caps, sure- they're exposed to much higher voltages and sometimes, the current is close to the upper limit of their operating range but when we're dealing with speaker wire, the voltage and current limits are rarely discussed except WRT gauge and length. Even then, it's not really presented as voltage & current limits, more about resistance and voltage drop (which are related).

Now, if someone can show that low level signal carrying cables need to break in AND show how the small voltage & current affect the wire, I would like to see it.

Please note that the OP asked for possible reasons and I provided one, while at the same time being quite clear that I am not suggesting it is actually effective. I'm only providing information he can explore himself and come to his own conclusions.

In other words, I am not going to do his (or anyone's) work for them; and with respect highfigh, appeals in a forum post to get someone to do a bunch of work is not a proof of anything and is an unreasonable request.

__

I don't have numbers to offer (I suppose to please everyone here I should start keeping records for the life of everything) but I do have a very good LCR meter **, and I do measure cables "out of the box"* and during the semi-annual maintenance (DeOxit, etc) if they are actually installed in the system. The values do change.

I do try to contribute to this forum, but it's difficult as sharks are everywhere, challenging everything, sometimes taking things out of context, rather than just seeing a forum post for what it is ... a forum post. Why I bring this up is because I did start a thread, once upon a time, in the Review section, about a pair of loudspeaker cables I aquired, and [planned to] install in my system to check out.

They weren't expensive but that's not the point (they would have been up against my DIY speaker cables, which I like very much, thankyou), but if you are serious you have to see how you stand against the competition. So every once in a while I "waste" some money on some popular cable, or someone I know gives me a set, to check out what I might be doing wrong, or what I might be doing right.

As part of my Post, I included measured values for LC and R. Before I even had a chance to install the damn things, there were three pages of posts from the shark pool. Did those values change? You will never know, because I abandoned the entire review process. What did I find when I cut it up? You will never know.

It was just too much. Three pages of posts telling me what I will hear ... re-read that if it doesn't sink in ... and who have never even touched the item I was referring to, let alone used it. The review was over before I started it, because a few dozen members of this forum had decided for me what the result would be. Well, why waste time actually plugging the things in then? Review over, I don't even have to write it. It's already done for me.

I will never again post any review on this site, ever. The experience was illustrative and whomever contributed, you got your wish.

So, let me take a dark drink of the Kool-Aid everyone here drinks ... wait for it ... mmmm. Grape.

There is no possible way any cable can have any effect on the sound.

Now, before I have to pee and lose the magic elixr, everyone should be happy now.

* "Out of the box" in this context usually means out of my workbench, not out of some retailer's inventory. But I do occasionally get a chance to have a look at some commercial offerings. And guess what ... sometimes I cut them up. I only mention that because I never, and I mean never, (not even the venerable owner of this site) see anyone review a cable and then cut it up to have a peek inside.

** And a Distortion Analyzer, and a 'Scope, and a bunch of other stuff you don't actually need to enjoy HiFi, but costs money and comes in handy sometimes, and ... wait for it ... could be used to measure cables. Like I said, no more reviews here, so we can leave it at that.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

I've lived and listened to so many cables over the years, the only ones I've ever heard that sounded different were really thin ones that were too small for the power going through them, they got warm, and a set of huge cables that had very high capacitance, and my amp really wasn't happy with them.

Now Magic Bricks and rocks, they really made a difference!

Your experiences are, apparently, impossible. Your punishment is to re-read the entire thread.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Perhaps stick with EE as this "belief system" is complete gibberish. You may be well versed in the EE field and thus throwing in some "self-help" grade references from Oprah Show psychology will only discredit your EE knowledge.

The reason I write this is because I don't think solid arguments need flawed examples or explanations.

What you gently brushed against from afar, to be polite, is the process of forming of the stereotypes. At the same time this has nothing to do with belief and can't be used to further the debate on cable break in. It is even further flawed with your explanations of difficult puzzles and subjects in school.

Noticing that human thought process is very susceptible to forming stereotypes lead scientists (not only psychologists, but many of those who have evolution as middle ground) to assume that this mechanism must have been useful for human species to strive.

The simplest way of explaining is this: instead of trying to discern nuances in a roar of a predator animal in order to identify which one it is, all roars are processed as danger and "flight or fight" is engaged. The time needed to discern whether it is really a threat can be fatal. "Energy consuming" is not the issue here at all, as one might argue that it might even save energy to not run from a donkey. This mechanism eliminates risk, this is its primary function. One more reason why it is utterly useless in listening among cables comfortably plunged into the armchair with no threat whatsoever.

Also it was never even proposed that the fact that all roars fall into "danger" category in any way imply you hear no difference among them. On the contrary, even when you don't know what it is, you're still able to say what it's not. So, after some time you might even stop running from donkeys and this is desirable in the end.

For this mechanism experience is not needed, this is passed on and can be detected in people who never met with the danger. People run from snakes when they first see them. People who never fell from height are afraid from height...

The entire "psychology" section of your post boils down to something similar to "if you look for it you'll find it", which brings no clarity to the topic as we are back on the beginning asking ourselves who is wrong; people who expect difference and hear it or people who expect no difference and don't hear it, is it those looking for difference or those looking for no difference. Both will not be correct.

For your purpose you might look for an experiment with a match box filled with led. This is where former knowledge forms your action and almost no one ever managed to lift this matchbox in first go, unless he was let in on it. IMPORTANT - they were ALL able to lift it the next time they tried. No idiot ever came forth who tried over and over again while applying the same amount of strength needed to lift the plain matchbox.

Google: placebo nocebo The mind is very much a part of any experience, including audio.

 

[killdozzer]

Google: placebo nocebo The mind is very much a part of any experience, including audio.

I see you're taking a lot of heat (I'd add; rightfully so), so I have no wish to further aggravate you.

My post to you should have made obvious I need no googling on the subject. What I wrote to you is taken from Oxford literature that deals with this subject.

Your switch from "Belief System" to "placebo nocebo" makes me think I was right when I told you to stick to EE. Placebo is exactly opposite from what we're interested in. We're trying to see whether it is in the cable. We're trying to see if it will perish once placebo perishes. Your saying that you wouldn't be quick to dismiss "cable brake in" lot on account of placebo completely misses the point. If it's placebo, it is NOT in the cable (unless your googling took you way further to a place where cables have placebo so if you tell them they're special they start to behave special). Also, if it's placebo then there's nothing stopping you from dismissing cable break in.

You should just provide solid evidence, nothing more. If it's placebo you were thinking of, we already know about that.