YPAO RSC Re- measurement

[Dunkc]

Hi
After running the YPAO setup on my RX-A1080 I have to adjust the crossover frequency manually. I cannot see any way to get the amp to reanalyse the system with the new settings so I can see what the new frequency response curves are. If I run YPAO again it resets the speakers sizes and presumably shows the curves for its new configuration. Any ideas?

 

[PENG]

You can buy a mic and download REW then you can plot you own FR graphs.
https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

 

[lovinthehd]

I don't think YPAO needs to recalculate after you adjust crossovers but not all that familiar with YPAO, but doubt the overall frequency shape would change all that much unless your adjustments were extreme in some way. It wouldn't matter with Audyssey, unless you lowered the crossover below the recommended one as that would open a gap in the eq. What is the recommended xover and what are you changing it to? With what speaker/sub combo?

 

[Dunkc]

I have in a newly rearranged 5.1.2 configuration: 4x Tannoy M1 (55hz +/-3dB), Tannoy MC (70hz -/+3dB), 2x Yamaha NS-AW392 (height effect, bought for the mounting options, no frequency response data available except 60hz at -10dB), YST-SW320 sub (20-160hz -10dB). The three sided room is about 4m long x 3m wide. No wall on the RHS. The SW is near the long wall midway along. Lots of furnishing, curtains, carpet, paintings.

Surely the frequency response measured by YPAO has to change if I change the crossover point in the AVR.

At the moment my tinkering is not to tackle a complex problem yet, just changing the speaker sizes and setting all crossovers back to 80hz except for the height effects pair that I have set to 110hz (by my ear they have very little volume much below this frequency (using and frequency generator on my iPhone streamed to the AVR, and climbing the ladder, would be nice if the AVR allowed software implemented speaker isolation).

The curves are far from flat and I am trying to understand what PEQ is ultimately attempting to realistically achieve in a home situation! I do not have a dedicated room, so any set up will be far from ideal. I don’t even understand what boomy base is. I do know that I get ear ache if the SW’s volume is too high. Similarly, seamless transition between the speakers and SW is not something I have an ear for AFAIK. I have few options for SW placement, I have options to plug the rear firing ports on the M1s (all only a few inches from the walls on brackets, except for the MC that is 10” away) , but little else I can do physically.

YPAO has applied -4.5dB around 125hz to the two front speakers but they are both still showing large positive peak but I don’t know what size.

I have REW and equipment but have not used it yet (got it to check the performance of some DIY speakers but never got around to it).

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hi
After running the YPAO setup on my RX-A1080 I have to adjust the crossover frequency manually. I cannot see any way to get the amp to reanalyse the system with the new settings so I can see what the new frequency response curves are. If I run YPAO again it resets the speakers sizes and presumably shows the curves for its new configuration. Any ideas?

Yeah, I’d say REW and a UMIK-1 also.

 

[lovinthehd]

The avr's graphics aren't the best way to determine just what the avr is doing let alone YPAO, that's where you do need to pull out the mic/REW and start using it. Your room will do what it will with peaks/nulls, YPAO can only address so much....what were the original YPAO recommendations? Why would the eq applied matter that much via changing the crossover? Any plans to upgrade the sub?

 

[Dunkc]

Won’t the new cutoff be evident in the YPAO response curve after the crossover is moved from 60 to 80, or 80 to 110? Just want to see the effects of the changes in the measurements.

The front and surrounds were set to large with 60hz crossover, by YPAO, three position measurement.

I don’t know if the SW needs replacing until I get some measurements, perhaps.

 

[lovinthehd]

It's not a cutoff, it's a crossover. A pic sometimes helps and this is for general visualization, not specific situation:

Just different frequency rolloff when you change crossover, and unless the speaker/sub in that range has difficulty responding to the eq requested I'd think the overall response shape wouldn't normally differ a lot altho I suppose it's possible. For a real broader picture than a setup mic is going to provide or a user interface graphic from an avr.....that's why you got the REW, right ? Might take a while to really analyze that How differently do the different crossover points sound, tho? Any sub localization happening at the higher crossovers?

 

[Dunkc]

Thanks Lovinthehd. My bad use of terms

But the YPAO result is for a single speaker, there will not be any low frequency SW signal present, as shown above. This is why I am expecting the rolloff to move right as a response to me increasing the crossover frequency. Maybe it does but I am only see YOAO results after it calibrates the room, not just a simple remeasurement (hoping this is all that is needed). I guess this is why REW is used.

Time poor at the moment to tackle REW. I bought the Dayton Audio EMM6 mic, Behringer UMC202, mic cable, 6mm interconnects and 6mm TRS to RCA adaptors, to use with a Mac; all new to me so will take some effort to understand its practical use outside of a lab.

I really don’t think I have the ability to detect with my ear what is going on. This setup will be for movies mostly, not music so As long as the vocals are good and the bass management working, that would do me for a start. I don’t see home theatre as critical listening (audiophile style); maybe I am wrong.

 

[Dunkc]

Another question, I am not sure how my REW system will output sound to each speaker if I only use the front RCA inputs! I think I made a mistake there.
Do I need to connect the Macbook to the AVR via HDMI for this to work?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Just use the hdmi connection. I wouldn’t worry about much more than LCR and subs. If you’re only using L/R inputs you’ll still be fine. If you want to measure other speakers you can select for example all channel stereo and unplug the LCR. But nobody really cares about them so much. Also, not sure it’s been stated, but I think, just like audyssey, in that the “after” is just a calculated guess by the AVR. It’s what the receiver is trying to do. That’s why you have to measure with rew.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks Lovinthehd. My bad use of terms

But the YPAO result is for a single speaker, there will not be any low frequency SW signal present, as shown above. This is why I am expecting the rolloff to move right as a response to me increasing the crossover frequency. Maybe it does but I am only see YOAO results after it calibrates the room, not just a simple remeasurement (hoping this is all that is needed). I guess this is why REW is used.

Time poor at the moment to tackle REW. I bought the Dayton Audio EMM6 mic, Behringer UMC202, mic cable, 6mm interconnects and 6mm TRS to RCA adaptors, to use with a Mac; all new to me so will take some effort to understand its practical use outside of a lab.

I really don’t think I have the ability to detect with my ear what is going on. This setup will be for movies mostly, not music so As long as the vocals are good and the bass management working, that would do me for a start. I don’t see home theatre as critical listening (audiophile style); maybe I am wrong.

LOL no worries, some think it's a brick wall so like to make sure.

Not that familiar with YPAO, but have used a few other req programs that are similar. Sometimes it's simply showing you a rough outline of the goal of its correction, not that it actually measured that way post correction.

I'm thinking you got that measurement setup a long time ago due the pre-usb style mic (and the other units). I have usb mic (a Dayton Omnimic V2 system, pretty much the UMM-6 mic). I didn't even want to try fussing with the style you had, and usb was available at the time so never had to. Have no idea how it works with Apple either. There's probably still an instructional guide out there somewhere, if not here maybe at avsforum.com.

Well of course to an extent it's about hearing but if you can't distinguish an actual difference or have any specific issues in xover point then I wouldn't worry about it a whole lot. I consider any audio setup worthy of care, that's what audiophilia is all about....the pursuit of high fidelity audio reproduction....preference can be another thing, tho

 

[Dunkc]

Thanks everyone. YPAO is not well documented, a shame because It might be so much more useful and capable if better implemented for tweaking (assuming the YPAO mic is up to it).
USB mic seemed too expensive at the time for one DIY speaker measurement, and with less usage options than the phantom powered one, at the time. Poor decision perhaps.
I’ll have a go with REW soon. Might need help interpreting and taking action on the results though

 

[Dunkc]

The avr's graphics aren't the best way to determine just what the avr is doing let alone YPAO, that's where you do need to pull out the mic/REW and start using it. Your room will do what it will with peaks/nulls, YPAO can only address so much....what were the original YPAO recommendations? Why would the eq applied matter that much via changing the crossover? Any plans to upgrade the sub?

What would a sub upgrade look like, out of curiosity?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

What would a sub upgrade look like, out of curiosity?

Anything here to start:


https://www.svsound.com/
http://rythmikaudio.com/
http://www.hsuresearch.com/subwoofers.html
Monolith versions
https://www.monoprice.com/category/audio-video/speakers/subwoofers
https://www.powersoundaudio.com/

 

[lovinthehd]

What would a sub upgrade look like, out of curiosity?

There are many subs that would be an upgrade to what you have....in addition to William's list, might add JTR and Seaton and maybe even Funk. As far as appearances, likely a bigger box

PS fairly easy to do a diy sub that would be superior, too.

 

[Dunkc]

There are many subs that would be an upgrade to what you have....in addition to William's list, might add JTR and Seaton and maybe even Funk. As far as appearances, likely a bigger box
PS fairly easy to do a diy sub that would be superior, too.

Knowing the best brand names is all good but most are not ones I recognise in Australia (also 240v)(common brands, Polk, Dynaudio, Kef, Jamo, B&W, SVS, REL, Elac, Cambridge Audio, Jensen, Wharfdale, Krix, Velodyne, Yamaha, and some exotics, etc).
Am I looking a >12” front facing drivers, ported or sealed enclosures, how many watts, frequency range, etc.
What about simply adding another YST?
Tell me more about DIY options? I built the speakers shown by my avatar last year so that could be doable.
I have started with REW, got the mic working and will do some measurements this weekend.
Is there one track or movie scene that clearly shows one way or the other if the sub can recreate the intended sound? I remember buying this sub while listening to the Moria cave troll scene in the Lord of the Rings but I recall it was in a pretty small display room.

 

[lovinthehd]

Knowing the best brand names is all good but most are not ones I recognise in Australia (also 240v). Am I looking a 12” front facing drivers, ported or sealed enclosures, how many watts, etc.

What about simply adding another YST?

Tell me more about DIY options? I built the speakers shown by my avatar last year so that could be doable.
I have started with REW, got the mic working and will do some measurements this weekend.
Is there one track or movie scene that clearly shows one way or the other if the sub can recreate the intended sound? I remember buying this sub while listening to the Moria cave troll scene in the Lord of the Rings but I recall it was in a pretty small display room.

Unfortunately Australia by many reports is very much lacking in subwoofage options. Don't even know what drivers you'd have a choice of, but that would determine the diy box to be built via its t/s parameters....I'd use measurements rather than content myself, but the opening sequence of Edge of Tomorrow (Live.Die.Repeat) can kill a lot of subs if played loud enough! What drivers can you source down there?

A second YST would give you more room response smoothing options, but wouldn't dig any deeper (the f3 on your YST isn't provided but the Yamaha spec in the manual indicates it's "20-160Hz -10dB" which may mean it's down 10dB at 20hz but who knows). I'd imagine there's plenty of movie content it is lacking in lower bass. By most reports I've read on the YST subs they're not horrible, just not particularly high performance subs.

Front facing or downward firing is more about the suitability of the driver to the task, both are fine for subs in general. Ported would usually offer more efficiency in lower bass down to it's tuning point; sealed can extend lower with a less steep roll-off but you may need a lot of amp/dsp to get it to perform as in a ported box down low....watts might matter if you knew the impedance/sensitivity of the driver/subwoofer.

Some of the SVS sub lineup I think is available in Australia, altho at much higher prices than here. That's all I have for ya!

ps tell us about the speakers you built!

 

[Dunkc]

Thanks for the additional information. I added some common speaker brands available here in Oz. Yes price is high here and we mostly have access to European brands AFAICS.
What is the SVS PB1000 like? Is this in the ballpark?

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for the additional information. I added some common speaker brands available here in Oz. Yes price is high here and we mostly have access to European brands AFAICS.
What is the SVS PB1000 like? Is this in the ballpark?

Pretty potent for it's size and will outperform your Yamaha. What do they charge there for what is USD 500 here. Actually here you get their customer service package and probably not there, and that has value as well....for instance the 45-day free in-home trial with round trip shipping paid for if you don't like their product. Only euro brands for subs I can think of are BK Elec and XTZ....well, I can think of Rel but wouldn't buy one.