Yell at HawKe for Ditching the Mac Platform

[Rob Babcock]

I'm not gonna discount da' Mac outta hand, but I'm guessing you'll search the wide world over looking for an equivalent to DVD+Audio with no luck. That's a paradigm shift in software that will one day rock the hallowed hall of audiophilia. Again, show me a glimmer of that capability and I'll be pricing Macs, but I'm not holding my breath. Copious research has shown that the Eximius software has no peer.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Well on their site they have OS X software, so it is just a matter of time for that one app I suspect. Since 24/96 is supported natively in OS X it would be easy for them to do. I will look for another app that does what that one does. It could be it is the only one of it's kind and it could also be that a lot of other programs do it as well but they just don't advertise the fact that they can. You would have look at such programs in more detail to see what they can do. I did find several programs that let you create Dolby Digital audio CD's Toast with Jam is one of them.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Rob, I took a look at that program again and what is the final format of the Disks you are creating? If it is Dolby Digital then there are several programs that do the very same thing. Or is it Native DVD audio or MLP, Merridian Lossless Compresion. It does not say.

Ahhh here it is, It is not DVD audio or MLP. But it is 24/96 PCM.

DVD+Audio is a DVD-Video compliant format, wich means that your normal standalone DVD player can play the DVD+Audio discs, no need to buy expensive new hardware.

You can create a disc containing multiple albums, compiled from your own normal CD-Audio disc, but then in either high quality (up to PCM 96kHz/24bits) or high quantity (up to 45 hours MP2 at 192kbps) audio to any DVD player.

Please note : DVD+Audio should not be confused with DVD-Audio, for which you need a special player and discs!

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Jeff, I know you're "fighting the good fight" but you must realize that, indeed, a lot of specialized software for many areas is only available in Windows versions. And that a person who has been using a given platform for any length of time would have to spend considerable time and money either switching to (say) Mac versions of Windows software (you can't just "trade in" your Windows versions of Word and Dreamweaver for Mac versions, and vice versa), or ferreting out equivalents (if they exist) of the more specialized software and learning those anew.

Yes, I think the Mac platform still offers advantages over Windows. Yes, I think Windows' market dominance is less related to its inherent qualities than to the ability of Gates/Microsoft to be even more business savvy (and ruthless) than Jobs/Apple. But as I said before, the whole thing by now has come down more to one's taste and biases. For a lot of folks, Windows is good enough at the price. If you think that is a lot like Bose, well...! And I think even Jobs has accepted that, indeed, the Mac has become a niche platform for "enthusiasts and power users". Sort of the Krell of computers. ;-{)} Chacun a son gout...(apologies to Francophones, I don't know my French diacritical marks!)

Anyway, what was Hawke's artical actually about?

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Rob, after rereading what you posted we need to discuss this further. Let me explain. You said

Eximius' DVD+Audio software. It takes 16 bit PCM/wav. files and using a proprietary interpolation-esque upsampler, converts them to 24/96 files & burns them to DVD-R. The resulting discs sound better (sometimes shockingly better) than the original CD

Starting to sound a little like snake oil. If the original recording was 16/44, then up converting it to 24/96 will not improve the original recording, you have only captured 16/44. You may have interpolated, altered or somehow changed the way the original sounded but you did not improve upon the original in any technical sense. This is no different than taking an Mp3 file and up-converting to CD audio, it will still only sound as good as the mp3 no matter what format you up-convert it to. You could somehow Eq the thing to make appear that it sounds better than the original but then what do you have? Why don't you just get a DVD Audio/SACD player and start enjoying real 24/96? Sounds like a waste of time and blank DVD's

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Rip, I am not arguing that point, if someone has money invested in software then it would not make sense for them to switch unless they needed some sort of functionality. If they are just starting from scratch, then I will argue that a PC is not the bargain Hawke says it is, especially if you are not building your own as most people do not. If your are looking to edit Video and Sound, then I will also say Mac OS X is a Superior platform in which to do that.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Don't knock it til you've heard it, Jeffsg4mac! Do you have a PC at all, or access to one? If so, you can download a trial version for free and try it out.

I do in fact have a Denon DVD-2200, and a decent collection of DVD-A & SACD discs (about 50). Eximius' software can't quite match that level of quality, but you'd be surprised how close DVD+Audio discs can come. If you scour the wide world, you'd find maybe 100 rock & pop discs I'd actually want to own on DVD-A or SACD. But there are tens of thousands of CDs. That's why this software is so cool. Someday maybe all my CDs will be rereleased on a hirez format, affording me the joy of buying them all a second or third time, but even if they were all out it'd take me years to be able get 'em all.

Are you familiar with how interpolation works? If so I'm really surprised you call it "snake oil." Some of the finest DACs in the world upsample and/or interpolate. Upsampling doesn't create new information, but it does allow better accuracy in reading the least significant bit (LSB). Interpolation does create additional info. Say what you will, but the Perpetual Technologies P1/P3 combo upsamples & interpolates and is widely considered to be among the finest DACs in existance.

At any rate, if you convert an MP3 to CD, that's all you're doing- transfering it. That's not how upsampling works.

Again, try the software before you judge it. It's humorous that you're saying it sounds like a waste, since you've never heard what it sounds like.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

I do have a PC, so I will try it, but I am very skeptical knowing full well what the source is. I know full well what interpolation is/does It does not improve digital video, 480p up converted/interpolated to 1080i is no better than the original 480p If I can't see the difference I doubt I will be able to hear it as well, that is all I am saying. Digital audio or Digital video a bit is a bit is a bit.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Audio & video are very different. Hell, you aren't out anything if you don't like it. Aside from the issue of quality, one very cool aspect is that depending on what bit depth you choose, you can get up to four hours of full quality music on one disc.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Don't knock it til you've heard it, Jeffsg4mac! Do you have a PC at all, or access to one?

Dude, I work in IS, I have access to anything from Linux to AS400

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I have both a Mac OS-X(panther) PC and a Win XP-Pro PC. So I am going to speak on the subject , like it or not.

VIRUS: The modern computer virus is usually like the pimple on your back you never even knew you had. Yes, Mac computers get fewer of them (if any, I'm not sure) but the few I got on my XP computer did no noticable damage to anything. I thought everything was fine until Antivirus said otherwise and fixed the problem easily.

In short: Virus's are not even the common cold and everybody fears them like cancerous-Aids. Less than 1% of PC's are the actual targets of these viruses, normally servers and huge corporations, but every buyer of a Wal*Mart Emachine thinks heathen commiee "Hackers" are out to use their POS 'net-surfing boxes to launch missle attac ks against the pentagon.

GAMES: Yeah, windows has more, better games. Mac owners have to deal with it. If you own a Mac I hope you like Myst. My friend did some sort of voodoo magic and was actually able to make Return to Castle Wolfenstein (for PC) run on a Mac. I don't know the specifics, so I can't tell you what to do.

UPGRADE: Uprgading is the trump card that Windows users love to strap to their groins and dance around Mac user with. Of course the 'powermac' line of computers is as disectable as a regular tower PC. You can't upgrade the iMac or the eMac's processor or video-graphics cards. You can upgrade RAM (with an easy-to reach port for the outside!) easily enough. Of course I could post the genius arguement that less than 1% of windows user could change or even identify a graphics card, but I won't stoop so low.

You can overclock a Mac regardless of popular myth. And the physical structure of an iMac/eMac is designed so auxialliary devices can be "easily" plugged into numerous slots (The eMacs are even on the easy to reach side, not the back).

SOFTWARE: Software is the grand-poobah of the Mac (Unless you belong to the Holy Church of iPod worship). GarageBand, iDVD, iMovie, and iTunes are among the short list of easiest to use/genius consumer level programs ever to grace a computer. iTunes, with its built in download store was made available to PC users so that even more iPods could be sold. (And some say covert PC users to Macs). In that regard iTunes was really a trojan horse, get hooked on the one-click usablity and suddenly you find yourself at the Apple store demoing iDVD and buying an iMac. GarageBand and iMovie are software that you would have to spend, literally, thousands extra to get a similar perfoming PC.

In addition to that Macs have become the de-facto standard for video editing and music production (on a non-platform specific computer). many production companies have actually "downgraded" the pure number crunching supercomputers because one producer can create more finished video material quicker on the "slower" on the Mac. Rumor has it Williams st. Productions (Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Sealab 2021) replaced a $100,000 AVID computer with a $2500 eMac for finished production.

iPod: Love it or hate it, the iPod is likely to do more for the recorded music industry than SACD or DVD-A in the next five years. It is the most popular portable music device since the SONY tape Walkman, and with nearly 100,000,000 songs sold in just a year (Come on, say it in a Dr.Evil voice "One hundred meeeeelion" )it quickly outpaced the CD-single and may actually be giving the standard-CD a run for its money! (Can someone get any info on download vs.album sale numbers for specific titles?) Plus it can be used in one hand with just a thumb!

COMPUTER DESIGN: I'm not a huge fan of ghostly white, but Apple got it all over Windows in design of the physical device itself. smooth edges, recessed speakers, DVD-drawer button the keyboard, one piece design, weird layered paint-clearcoat/plastic shell, Titanium laptops.

By being the sole maker of the computers, Apple hands down can build a nicer product (no competition rushing cheap **** to market). Yes this makes the computer cost more, but the design is a huge selling point.

I believe the only comparable designer/builder of a PC would be Alienware.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Rock and roll, I love your post, but a few corrections, imacs , the older ones, can have a processor upgrade. Sonnet has an upgrade for the older imacs, but you can not upgrade the video at all. imacs were never intended to be upgraded anyway. No upgrade for new imacs or Emacs yet. If faster *4's become available you will probably see them. And while there are not as many games for the mac, there are some good ones. Return to Castle Wolfenstein is one them. There are a lot of others too. MYST is cool though. I have it.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

imacs were never intended to be upgraded anyway. No upgrade for new imacs or Emacs yet.

A computer owner can upgrade their iMac & eMac:

*Optical drives (CD/DVD players and burners) can be switched for newer equipment. They currently use standard Pioneer PC drives

*Hard drives can be replaced

*RAM can be upgraded (and is easier to do on a Mac)

*OS X natively supports multiple firewire harddrives

*BlueTooth, Airport cardsets can be added by user

*Processor can be overclocked

*Interior wiring could be replaced by $3000 Nordost wiring (I keed, I keed )

You can upgrade them a little. Just not as much as a PC.

Anyway, to elaborate on my VIRUS rant:

Adware and Spyware, including the vile pop-up ad are causing far more damage to PC's everywhere than a professional virus ever will. And most people bring it on themselves by downloading crap from Yahoo!( and similar sites) and not performing simple maintenece to thier broswer cache.

 

[Audioholics]

This is one thread I knew would go off-topic - so I pre-off-topiced-it with the title.

That switcher is a VERY cool device, by the way, for those of you who do use both platforms (or just 2 PCs or Macs in the same room)

Carry on!

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Hawke, so you admit to being a troll

Rock&Roll, I knew all that, I meant processor upgrades, smarty pants

 

[Rob Babcock]

That's hilarious! It would take a mac dude to think an Alienware computer looks cool! A monkey could add memory to a PC or a mac, so that wouldn't be a big deal with either machine.

The PC may have a lot more good games, but I really don't game on the PC, anyway. I much prefer my Xbox & 100" Da-Lite screen. Nope, 19" don't cut if for my gaming! Well, there are some games that look pretty cool for the PC, but I'm too lazy to learn 'em and too cheap to buy 'em.

I imagine this is pretty far off Hawke's original topic, but it has been interesting. Down the road I might look for a cheapo used Mac, if I can figure out for sure that a KVM would let me switch between the PC & Apple machines. My Microsoft keyboard & mouse might be programmed to send a phased polaron burst into the mac to fry it! Sorry, I've been watching Voyager, Season 3 on DVD all nite!

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Oh, that's right. This was about some switch thingy, wasn't it?

 

[JVC]

I don't know any particular links for mac parts, but you can get them. The main reason you can't build a mac, is that you can't get the firmware (legally). Apple does not release it. Too many people and companies have access to pc firmware and other parts. That's why pcs have many more problems than a mac.
Check out www.macmall.com, or any other sites that sell macs. You can get an eMac that's loaded, for about $700. That's with a 17" screen. They are giving free printers and lots of free memory with them now too.
You will pay top dollar for Apple's top of the line machines (PowerMac *5), just as you will pay top dollar for a pc's top of the line machine (AlienWare). You find more cheap pcs, because everybody and their brother, are building them.........and Apple doesn't allow it. A few years ago, Apple let some companies start building Mac Clones. Then they started having compatability problems out the ying yang. The clone companies didn't live up to Apple's standard of excellence. So, after 2-3 years of giving it a try, they took away the opportunity for the clones to continue, and made macs better again.
We have two older macs. One is about 10 years old, and the newest one is a 5 year old iMac. Both are still going strong. I had a custom built pc, built for me. I do like some games that are not available for the mac. A lot of internet stuff is also pc only. My pc has windows XP, which has been fairly simple to learn. It'll take awhile to learn it, like I want to. I think everyone should own BOTH (a mac & a pc).
I still prefer the mac for ease of use and ease of fixing problems. But with the earlier OS'. I do not like OSX, personally. It got totally away from the ease of use and fixing standard. I prefer OS 8.6 and OS 9.xx.
If we can come up with the money, we'll probably get a new eMac or the 17" WS iMac.

Edit: This software won't let me put the * in the *5, in (). I tried twice!
It did it again!!!!!!!!
You know........the letter after F. The seventh letter in the alphabet.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

JVC, come on now. OS 8 or 9? they suck beans compared to X. OS X is not hard to fix, but it is hard to break. You need to get yourself familiar with X because 9 is a dead OS. Once you use X you will never go back to 9, you can not make any valid arguments to support 8 or 9 being better than X. X does everything better and more stable. Panther is the most advanced OS out there and Tiger will be so much more. If your going to post statements like that you better be prepared to back it up. I was a os 8 and 9 freak and there is no way you could ever get me to use it again. In-fact I never even run it in classic. It is not installed on any mac in my house and there are 5 of them

 

[Rob Babcock]

Well, the question is now moot for me. Fate gave me the chance to build a new PC for a bit less money than would normally be possible. I got a 2.8 Gig Pentium 4 (Northwood), Intel 865 board, 512 MB of very low CAS latency DDR PC 3200, 1 x 120 GB Seagate Barracuda, 1 x Maxtor 120 GB, Pioneer DVD burner, Memorex CD-R burner, Zalman Quiet CPU cooler/fan & one 120 mm case fan, all in an Antec 3700 BQE. I've got a KVM to hook up my "old" PC & my new one together. My older one is set up as my internet & messing around PC while the new one is set up as a serious burning machine (and it's not connected to the internet at all! ).

I conidered a cheapie Mac for internet, but it woulda cost too much to upgrade my current old PC (a 2.7 * Celeron on a not-really-advanced MoBo) into a serious gaming & burning rig, plus buying the mac. And the software I need isn't available for the Mac to use it as my Big Rig. Besides, I simply can't afford a "serious" mac.