surveyor

surveyor

Audioholic Chief
vermintrex said:
Actually, I really meant it. I was merely pointing out that your response, to those who don't know you, or the equipment you favor, would very likely view your response as being that of a Yamaha lover who is going to blindly defend the brand name (I still haven't checked out your equipment, nor is it relevant in the context of this discussion). I'm not saying that you are that guy, I'm just saying that this one particular response at this one particular instant in time sounds like a fanboy to me.

What I was really asking for was for you to clarify why you think comparing only the rxv-2400 and the rxv-2500 to each other is good enough. I find that information to be of limited usefulness, although it is useful. I was also interested in information about the power supply, amps and capacitors, but maybe I should just go buy it since, "Again another informative and fine review" , you seem to feel that everthing that needs to reviewed has been.
Oh well, I can't help you. But I'll get over that! :eek:
 
E

ewclam9

Audiophyte
I may be too spoil. At projectorcentral dot com, they told me exactly what I need to know at each price range. They maintain a hall of frame at each price range and it really helps me to make my purchase decision based on my buying power. I believe they actually purchased the product for comparsion, then sell them at reduced price later. It does require a lot of $$$$$.

I am sorry to hear that Audioholcs does not have previous products or other products in the same price range on hand to do comparsion.

Keep up the good work and I love this site. ;)
 
If I were buying a receiver right now and could get the RX-V2400 at about half the cost of a new RX-V2500 - I think it would be a no-brainer to go with the RX-V2400. I, however, place a huge value on the price differential.

If you have extra money or you value the latest-greatest then perhaps you'd want to spent twice as much for the newest product.

A few months from now, the old products will likely be sold out and then the picture will be a little bit different.
 

plhart

Audioholic
Since there seems to be so much hand wringing going on over every phrase written in Clint and Gene’s receiver reviews, Gene asked me if I would shed a little light on receiver product designs. I am in the process of writing a full article on the product design process so that we all may better understand how a particular product with specific power and features comes to market. But for the sake of brevity in this forum here's some bottom line facts:

1. Setting aside all the new surround decoding technologies that seem to have come up every year for the last 10 years since Dolby Digital debuted, in a receiver we're talking about most of the $$ going to very mature analog amplifier technologies, display elements, cost of steel chassis, faceplates, packing, cartons, manuals etc. If you add all these fairly fixed costs up you're at about 2/3 to 3/4 of the whole cost of a receiver before you even give the Engineering guys your power and features "wish list".

2. If you're a Yamaha or Denon or Onkyo, etc. you already have tried-and-true circuitry (Like Top Art, for instance, which Yamaha introduced over 15 years ago) which is known to produce your company's "characteristic sound". That's what you have to use. (A generalization but close enough for now.)

3. The tried-and-true amplifier and power supply circuitry comes from vendors your company has probably been using for many, many years. And in a lot of instances your competitors may be buying the exact same parts from the exact same company. (This scenario is slightly different in Yamaha's case in some instances but I'll talk about that in my full length article).

4. So, if you're the engineer, you have predefined pricepoints which you know you must hit for every single part in that receiver. (And here I'm talking about the "fixed" price points for receivers between $300 SRP and ~$1200 SRP.) You're designing a new model because:
a) that's your job
b) the competition is coming up with new models so you need to compete with something else which is "new" and
c) some of those "fixed cost" items always have some sort of "price creep" due to lack of supply or whatever but you, Mr. Engineer, have to be the guy who figures out how to keep the sum of all of your costs the same. This isn't easy but this is the reality of the situation under which new designs are born.

5. Now, given 1, 2, 3, and 4 above. How is it possible for you, Mr. Engineer, to use the same fixed costs as you did in the last receiver at that fixed-cost-formula-price-point (or more probably Increased costs) and fixed circuit designs, which will yield the "company sound", and still make your new receiver somehow sound "better" ??

The answer is that most of the time a new design doesn't "sound better". It almost can't. In my 7 1/2 years as Yamaha's Product Manager, through literally hundreds of product iterations I do remember one particular integrated amp, the A-1000, that sounded incredible for it's price point. And we had to beg the company to keep it in the line for another year because with it's layered board layout it was too hard to build labor-wise to justify its low (for that time) price point.

Keep in mind that the sound versus cost of the A-1000's amplifier section was what was so costly to build. The new curve ball hitting all the receiver manufacturers for the last ten years was how to absorb the cost of the newest decoding technology , like Pro Logic IIx, which is demanded immediately by consumers as soon as they hear about it, if a receiver line is to stay even viable.

Is it any wonder then that, save for the very hi-end "statement" receivers, it seems like folly to expect "better sound" from a manufacturer's bread-and-butter receiver line-ups?
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I think you made some excellent points!

I want to throw out that of all the Yamaha receivers I have heard - mostly V1200's+,, 2200's+, 3200's+, V1, Z1 I have felt that they have all sounded very similar. Some have definitely been able to put out more sound. But, Yamaha, when releasing a new model always reacted VERY quickly to customer complaints and reliability issues.

IE: The RX-V1 was their flagship receiver for a couple of years. When it suddenly started having a problem with a lot of the receivers failing, Yamaha responded by TRIPLING the warranty on the receiver from 1 to 3 years. They then fixed the problems with the next generation of receivers to avoid this problem.

When the RX-V1 was used in control system applications (Pronto/Crestron) the IR and RS-232 codes were so bad that the receiver was almost impossible to use other than at a very basic level. Yamaha responded by writing a uniform RS-232 code set that is used among all of it's receivers including (now) the V1500. They also put in fully separate IR codes for all zones that were available within the receiver.

Sound is good from these receivers: They are like Hondas... or Acuras. For the most part they are very, very reliable and will make you very happy. The better they are the more they do and they will sound better. But really, they will never be a Ferrari. Likewise, you don't need to tweak and play with them all the time to keep them working and sounding good. You don't need to know the mechanics of the receiver to love it. That's WHY you love it, because it just works. Every time you press the power button. Every time you want to send video to zone 2 - or FM to your distributed audio system. It is there and works and works... and works.

I am very impressed by what Yamaha offers and while I recognize that there may be some sound limitations with their product, it is mostly important if you are very discerning and have no wife to contend with using the system. ;)
 
E

ewclam9

Audiophyte
Many times, the sound of the receivers in the same price range are very close. In these cases, I would buy the one with the best internal guts, design, and construction. It does not need to be future proof as there is no such thing yet.

Many people agree that we need to listen to every receiver before purchase. However, not one dealer carry every receivers that I like. Even if they do, they are connected to different speakers or different room. It is very difficult to compare them. Some people purchase each one of them, bring them home and then return the one they do not like. It is very time consuming and not every deal would like to do that. The open-box items are going to be sold at a lower price!

This is why I keep reading comments in this type of web site for more expert opinion.

It would help if a web site could cross compare different receivers from other companies and maintains a hall of frame at each price range. It will really motivate me to upgrade my gear more often. :p
 
T

threewheel42

Audioholic Intern
yamaha rx-v2500 clarification question...

from what I understand from the review, the v2500 will run 7 speakers simultaneously, but not 9. For me this is not theoretical...I have seven, inluding the rear center surrounds...if this is correct, I would appreciate some cofirmation from anyone with knowledge. It was not exactly clear from the reviews.

I currently have no need to run 9 simultaneously... I have two other excellent stereos in the house.

thanks,

Jim
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Jim;

The RX-V2400 and RX-V2500 will NOT run all 9 Channels at the same time, even with an external amp. We noted this in both reviews and even have an FAQ about it.
 
T

threewheel42

Audioholic Intern
FAQ very useful

Thanks..the FAQ told me exactly what I needed... luckily (or not) I do not intend to run 9.1 ...I have rear surrounds and back center surrouds, so 7.1 will do it. I really have no good location for front presence speakers too. Sounds like the 2500 will suit my needs...although certainly the pioneer 56txi and denon 3805 are tempting...
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
gene said:
Jim;

The RX-V2400 and RX-V2500 will NOT run all 9 Channels at the same time, even with an external amp. We noted this in both reviews and even have an FAQ about it.
Gene: Could you clarify a quick question: The receiver obviously only has 7 channels of amplification, and perhaps of processing. But, in a 9.1 setup, when presence speakers are put on priority, the surround back channels will not play when there is a signal for the presence speakers, the surround back signals are sent to the L&R surrounds. But, what happens when there is no signal for the presence speakers? That is, in a 9.1 setup, when only 7 channels are in use, will the surround back speakers play when the presence speakers are not in need of amplification? Or, in a 9.1 setup, will two of the speakers never work even when the other two are not needed?
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
How many times can they say it?

The receiver can play 7.1 channels at a time - either 5.1 with 'presence' or 7.1 without.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Anonymous said:
How many times can they say it?

The receiver can play 7.1 channels at a time - either 5.1 with 'presence' or 7.1 without.
Yes, that wasn't what I asked, thank you for repeating what has been said though and not answering my question anyway.
 
dm_4u

dm_4u

Junior Audioholic
BMXTRIX said:
Yes, that wasn't what I asked, thank you for repeating what has been said though and not answering my question anyway.
I believe what he wants to know, is that if you have all 9.1 connected, will the receiver automatically switch from Presence to Back Surrounds, and back again, (providing there are signals only to either at one time).

Or, is there an internal switch that makes you commit to using either one or the other during a DVD.

Unfortunately, I believe it's the latter...ie you have to choose BEFORE you play.

Correct me if i'm wrong :confused:
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
DM;

Thanks for clarifying BMX's question and BMX I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. With Clint gone, I am busting my butt to keep the frontpage fresh among other things ;)

I believe DM is correct. You assign which speakers you are using in Bass Management/Setup screens so it wont toggle between them depending on source. Any 2400/2500 users wish to verify? I no longer have any Yamaha receivers in my posession to check it out myself :(
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
No rush, I have a Z1, so my question is less for my info than to clarify. When I read the 2500 manual, I immediately read "When presence speakers are set for priority, then when both presence and surround backs are in use, the signal for the surround backs will be sent to the surrounds instead." Which sounds a lot like when there is no audio going to the presence speakers, the surround backs will come on and play as they normally do.

That probably doesn't make sense though. I can imagine a time when music is filling the surround backs, then the presence speakers are needed, so the surround backs cut off, then they cut back on when the presence speakers aren't needed. They would just cut in and out which makes no sense at all. Very distracting. Probably better if it only works one way and not the other.
 
Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
I have the RX-V1500. There is a internal switch which forces you to choose between SB and PR speaker priority. Although I do have presence speakers hooked up I believe that setting the switch to SB nullifies or reroutes any signal intended for the PR channels. I'm not sure if that means that the signal that normally would go to the presence channels goes into the front or rear surround speakers or if is simply lost. Before I returned my HTR-5760 and picked up the 1500 I posed a similar question in another string but got no response.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
It says in the 2500 manual that the sound is mixed with the fronts or the surrounds and is not lost.
 
gene said:
I believe DM is correct. You assign which speakers you are using in Bass Management/Setup screens so it wont toggle between them depending on source.
That's correct - it's set in the GUI. I attached a screenshot so you can see how it is selected.
 

Attachments

Nomo

Nomo

Audioholic Samurai
Very cool looking interface by the way. Maybe it's just fluff but it's a shame Yamaha didn't include it in the RX-V1500 package.
 
dm_4u

dm_4u

Junior Audioholic
My question is for those that have used the RX-V2400/2500's ability to do 7.1...

If you only have one set of extra speakers, which would you setup...the SB or Presence and why?

The second part is: do any/all DVD's have the extra SB and/or Presence channels and is there a place to look up which titles?

Any help would be appreciated as I do have one set of speakers and only require wire...(how long will be answered by you :p
 
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