Yamaha RX-A6 multichannel performance

[TLS Guy]

I'm thinking of a replacement for my Yamaha RX A2080. I'm having a hard time leaving the Yamaha line. My last 3 receivers have been Yamaha's. I am really leaning toward the Onkyo RZ70. I'm a little hesitant because I remember the HDMI issues from years back. But I really like the power output of the Onkyo and the Dirac room correction. YPAO leaves a lot to be desired. Good idea? Or stay in the Yamaha universe with a RX A6A. I'm not too crazy about the new style though.

If you need to replace it now, I would stick with Yamaha. Marantz and Denon have been in a frightful mess of late due to severe mismanagement under Sound United. Just in the last few days, Sound United has been purchased by Harmon a subsidiary of Samsung. Hopefully this will lead to a brighter future. The new Harmon leadership have made encouraging statements, but as we all know:- "Talk is Cheap!"

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm thinking of a replacement for my Yamaha RX A2080. I'm having a hard time leaving the Yamaha line. My last 3 receivers have been Yamaha's. I am really leaning toward the Onkyo RZ70.

This comes to mind:

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm thinking of a replacement for my Yamaha RX A2080. I'm having a hard time leaving the Yamaha line. My last 3 receivers have been Yamaha's. I am really leaning toward the Onkyo RZ70. I'm a little hesitant because I remember the HDMI issues from years back. But I really like the power output of the Onkyo and the Dirac room correction. YPAO leaves a lot to be desired. Good idea? Or stay in the Yamaha universe with a RX A6A. I'm not too crazy about the new style though.

First, why are you wanting to replace the excellent Yamaha 2080? Just upgrade fever?

2nd, how often do you buy/upgrade your AVR? Is it worth saving a few dollars for something that you plan on keeping for 5YR+ ?

I love my RX-A3080. The only thing I hate about it is that (like most brands) you can’t have subwoofer output in Pure Direct mode like for Denon/Marantz. I need Pure Direct for KARAOKE.

3rd, I don’t want to hear a word out of anybody’s mouth about my Karaoke.

 

[m. zillch]

The only thing I hate about it is that (like most brands) you can’t have subwoofer output in Pure Direct mode like for Denon/Marantz.

Well it does have a subwoofer out for incoming signals containing a ".1" ch.; I assume you mean you don't like that there's no sub out for incoming 2.0 content in Pure Direct mode, yes?

I didn't know some Denon/Marantz differ in this way. That must be new. Of course there's no law regarding what "Pure Direct" even means, so technically any company can do whatever they want but could you give an example of one I could do more research on to learn about it? Thanks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well it does have a subwoofer out for incoming signals containing a ".1" ch.; I assume you mean you don't like that there's no sub out for incoming 2.0 content in Pure Direct mode, yes?

I didn't know some Denon/Marantz differ in this way. That must be new. Of course there's no law regarding what "Pure Direct" even means, so technically any company can do whatever they want but could you give an example of one I could do more research on to learn about it? Thanks.

Yes, I mean for 2.0 sources (like for my analog karaoke source).

Denon/Marantz has always offered this for as long as I can remember.

When I use any other modes for karaoke (stereo, straight), this still requires processing and this causes the annoying sound delays when I sing on the microphone. But when I use Pure Direct, there is absolutely no sound delays. This happens with all AVR’s I’ve used.

But for Denon, I can set the Subwoofer mode to LFE + Main (some call this double bass) and this allows subwoofer output from 2.0 sources even in PD mode. No sound delays on my karaoke mics.

Yamaha has “Double Bass”, but PD shuts this off.

 

[Trebdp83]

I'm going to say a word about your karaoke. But, I'll let you pick the word. Oh, and I think you meant LFE + Main.

 

[m. zillch]

But for Denon, I can set the Subwoofer mode to THX + Main (some call this double bass) and this allows subwoofer output from 2.0 sources even in PD mode.

Which Denon unit are you using when you do this?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Which Denon unit are you using when you do this?

Denon AVR-5308 and AVR-3000-series about 8 - 9 years ago.

 

[lovinthehd]

Which Denon unit are you using when you do this?

I have a coupla Denons that can use sub in 2ch direct mode (and can be set for either LFE or LFE+Main modes). My 4700 and 4520 and 3808 all offer this.

 

[m. zillch]

I have a coupla Denons that can use sub in 2ch direct mode (and can be set for either LFE or LFE+Main modes). My 4700 and 4520 and 3808 all offer this.

Even in LFE mode? Wild.

Does it have a secondary bass management system to set sub level, delay, crossover but all done in the analog domain?
Does it say "Screw your request to be 'pure', I'm digitizing the analog input signal anyways, like it or not, to derive the manufactured sub out channel and filter the mains"?
I'm not getting this. Help me out.

 

[budjo]

First, why are you wanting to replace the excellent Yamaha 2080? Just upgrade fever?

2nd, how often do you buy/upgrade your AVR? Is it worth saving a few dollars for something that you plan on keeping for 5YR+ ?

I love my RX-A3080. The only thing I hate about it is that (like most brands) you can’t have subwoofer output in Pure Direct mode like for Denon/Marantz. I need Pure Direct for KARAOKE.

3rd, I don’t want to hear a word out of anybody’s mouth about my Karaoke.

The reason for the replacement is the receiver developed random popping every so often. I sent it in twice but never got it resolved. It's not awful but enough for me to move on. This is the first Yamaha that has given me a problem. I will probably buy the RZ70 from Crutchfield so if it turns out I don't like it I can send it back for a Yamaha.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Does it say "Screw your request to be 'pure'….

The fact that I am not getting any kind of sound delays (unlike all the other modes like Stereo mode) tells me that it is pure.

All the other modes cause a sound delay which tells me the signal is being post-processed or went through DAC/DAC conversions for bass management.

IOW, if Pure Direct or Direct mode causes the exact same sound delay effects that Stereo mode causes, then it would prove that Pure Direct was not really pure and had the same analog-to-digital and then digital-to-analog conversions.

So Pure Direct is pure even with the subwoofer management.

PC ANALOG signal goes to External Sound Mixer the same time the Microphone ANALOG signal goes to Sound Mixer. The combined ANALOG signal then goes to the AVR ANALOG Input. In PD mode, the ANALOG signal goes to the ANALOG amp and speaker. All other modes require ADC for bass management and then DAC, which causes the sound delay.

 

[lovinthehd]

Even in LFE mode? Wild.

Does it have a secondary bass management system to set sub level, delay, crossover but all done in the analog domain?
Does it say "Screw your request to be 'pure', I'm digitizing the analog input signal anyways, like it or not, to derive the manufactured sub out channel and filter the mains"?
I'm not getting this. Help me out.

You can choose LFE or LFE+Main mode, set crossover and L/R speaker delays, levels. I assume its done digitally. You don't have to use it if you want to be "purer"

 

[m. zillch]

As I mentioned previously, "Pure Direct" can mean whatever the maker wants and they can theoretically even vary it by model, input selected, time of day, or anything they want really. But should anyone be interested, I emailed the related company Marantz about this once and here was their response I reposted in another forum:
#11,933 Jul 15, 2025

cdinoz007 said:

" I have an x1500h - does anyone know if when using Pure Direct mode - does that actually bypass the internal DAC on the avr?"

Me:
"This is a controversial topic because the manuals usually don't spell out this picky detail explicitly. For the related companies Denon and Marantz generally they indeed bypass all digital circuits for the analog stereo inputs when placed in Pure Direct (PD) mode*, however you'd need to write them and ask about your specific model if you need to be dead certain.

To settle a disagreement about one of their units, I once did just that, here:

Hello Mike, You recently raised a question with our customer care team. Below is a summary and our response. Reference Number: 231203-000205 Subject: Marantz Customer Care - In Pure Direct mode, does the AV pass a purly analog signal from input to output? Response By Email (Christopher) (12/04/2023 10:57 AM) Ref #231203-000205 Marantz AV10 Hello Mike, Thank you for contacting Marantz Cutomer Care. We appreciate the opportunity to assist you. Yes, you are correct. The AV 10 has an analog bypass mode that can be activated by using the Pure Direct mode. This mode will bypass all digital processing and output the analog signal from the analog stereo inputs to the analog stereo outputs. This mode will also turn off the display and the video circuitry to minimize any possible interference with the audio quality. You can use this mode when you want to enjoy the purest sound from your analog sources. We hope this helps! Best Regards, Christopher . . . We hope all of your questions have been answered and any issues have been resolved. A brief survey will be emailed to you asking how we did today. This feedback helps us continuously improve the customer experience, so we would love to hear from you. Thanks for contacting Marantz Customer Care and have a great day! . . . Hi, According to a recent forum post by the electrical engineer Gene DellaSala, who reviewed the AV 10 for his company Audioholics using an Audio Precision audio analyzer: "The AV 10 absolutely has an analog bypass. Most Denon and Marantz top shelf stuff does and has for years." I assume this purely analog signal path from analog stereo inputs to analog stereo outputs can be accomplished by using the unit in "Pure Direct" mode, correct? [I already understand the limited feature set when used in Pure Direct mode, by the way, but my question is related how to temporarily bypass all digitization, if ever needed.] Thanks and have a great day! -Mike Z.

*Also keep in mind almost all processing such as room correction, EQ, tone controls, speaker distance settings (delay), surround modes, and subwoofer output signal generation is usually done digitally, so none of that stuff would function for the 2ch. analog INs when used in PD mode."

 

[PENG]

As @m. zillch mentioned, for D+M models, PD and even D mode behavior could vary among models. In general though, in those modes if analog inputs are used the device will keep the signal in the analog path.

In terms of bass management, then as @lovinthehd alluded to, some models would still let you have some basic capabilities such as crossovers, speakers small/large (older models, newer ones use different terminology now..).

I suspect models at the 4000 series and up, at least the ones that have the two channel stereo menu, would let you have crossovers, speakers small, but the lower models is somewhat confusing as a) they don't offer the two channel stereo menu, so you get only the general menu to select small, large XO etc., without one specifically for two channel. In those models, I have only tested the AVR-X1800H, and I had used REW to verify the results, so I know for this near entry level model, even though I can still set XO, small, large, it actually has no effect, so the FR plotted with REW would show flat FR regardless of crossover settings. I didn't like that because it was obviously misleading but I understand why D+M would not likely care because I assume they know most who use these lower models would not care that much about such level of details anyway.

Note: I think the higher models could still offer the basic management settings because there are ways to do it, without including an analog filtering circuit, though iirc, the super high end ones such as the AVR-5805 (confirmed in Gene's review), and so likely the AVR-A1H, AV10 might (not confirm anywhere but in one of the response I received from Marantz support a few years ago, the rep claim that's the case with the AV7705) also have such analog filter circuitry (confusing too, not sure exactly how it's done, as he called it "tone control" for such purposes.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Regarding Subwoofer management in PD mode, I think I have an idea how Denon engineers did it.

1. You split the Analog PD signal into 2 identical signals (call it S1 & S2).
2. S1 goes straight to the speaker (no ADC/DAC). Thus, no delays in sound vs the microphone.
3. S2 goes to ADC for LFE, then DAC, then to Subwoofer.

So while S1 gets PD treatment (no ADC/DAC, no sound delay), S2 does have the slight delay in sound due to ADC/DAC, but I just can’t HEAR the sound delay since it is just LOW Subwoofer LFE BASS.

So for Denon/Marantz PD + Bass Management, the Speaker gets Pure Direct, but the Subwoofer does not get Pure Direct.

Now why can’t Yamaha do that? They could, but they won’t because they are stubborn

 

[m. zillch]

. . . I suspect models at the 4000 series and up, at least the ones that have the two channel stereo menu, would let you have crossovers, speakers small, but the lower models is somewhat confusing as a) they don't offer the two channel stereo menu, so you get only the general menu to select small, large XO etc., without one specifically for two channel. In those models, I have only tested the AVR-X1800H, and I had used REW to verify the results, so I know for this near entry level model, even though I can still set XO, small, large, it actually has no effect,

No effect. Interesting. Did you also measure the sub out signal on it (if there was one still active)?
---

In my testing of an early Marantz prepro, AV7005, I determined that "Pure Direct" behavior for analog inputs differed significantly from digital inputs. It annoyed me that engaging PD successfully returned my incoming analog signals to their raw, unprocessed, full range, phase aligned signal just as I wanted—suitable to then send out the main out ports to either audio tape recorders or my outboard headphone amp—but for digital incoming sources this was not the case! Digital sources were still undergoing at least some aspects of modification! (I didn't test all of them but I did test "speaker distance", aka channel delay).

Good news. I still have the two files to compare so everyone here can take a quick listen to the issue themselves. [I recommend using headphones.] If turning Audyssey OFF and on top of that engaging Pure Direct truly eradicated all manifestations of room correction then these two files should sound the same (but they don't):

Speaker setup menu set to a 3cm speaker distance discrepancy correction between my Front L and R channels. HOWEVER Audyssey XT is turned OFF and PURE DIRECT is turned ON.

Speaker setup menu set to NO speaker distance discrepancy correction between my Front L and R channels. Once again, Audyssey XT is turned OFF and PURE DIRECT is turned ON.

[Tested unit: Marantz AV7005, PCM optical IN, pink noise test signal, recorded directly by wire, i.e., it never entered the acoustical domain.]

Conclusion: It is fundamentally impossible to temporarily bypass/disengage all manifestations of room correction for digital inputs with a few buttons. Even setting Audyssey to "OFF" and on top of that engaging "Pure Direct" doesn't cut it!

[I later had a forum friend test his Denon AVR4310 (Audyssey XT32), by the way, and he found the same behavior. So this implies the issue is not limited to just my brand/model.]

Think about the profound consequences of this. When a professional audio reviewer (or us hobbyists) presses their unit's PD button to assess what they think is the raw sound quality of the device's preamp section for incoming digital sources, they aren't actually hearing it in its true, unmodified state! So it's no wonder they think preamps "sound different" (even though I'm pretty sure good ones kept in their safe operational range don't actually sound different from one another).

 

[PENG]

No effect. Interesting. Did you also measure the sub out signal on it (if there was one still active)?

It's distant memory now as I sold the unit last year. If I remember right, yest subout signal is on when in direct mode/pure direct unless you set sub to no/none.

Crossovers okay too in direct mode if HDMI is used, but not if analog inputs are used. Again, that's the lower model, the 4000 series and higher do have the "2Ch Playback" menu where you can set speakers to small and crossovers, and I think (not 100% sure) in those cases, crossovers will work even when using analog inputs and direct mode.

Conclusion: It is fundamentally impossible to temporarily bypass/disengage all manifestations of room correction for digital inputs with a few buttons. Even setting Audyssey to "OFF" and on top of that engaging "Pure Direct" doesn't cut it!

[I later had a forum friend test his Denon AVR4310 (Audyssey XT32), and he found the same behavior. So this implies the issue is not limited to just my brand/model.]

May be I didn't do the exact same tests you did, in my measurements with REW, direct=pure direct=stereo with audyssey off, that is, no room correction effects. That's the case with my X4400H, AV8801, AVR-X1800H, I had the AV7005 and AVR-X4308CI as well but in those days I did not get crazy enough to do take too many measurements. I can't understand you would have different results, but weird things do happen lol...

[/QUOTE]

By the way, nice to see you post here, I used to read many of your posts on AVSF, agreed with you most of the time, the only exception I can remember is yours on passive biamp and biwire. On that one, I agree such efforts are waste of time, but the way you proved that passive biamp don't make a difference is not valid imo, there is an electrical difference that is measurable, just no audible effects.

I was surprised at the way you did that prove so now that you are here I wanted to alert you on that, your were right about the voltage being the same, but the current in the wire is different, anyway, just minor nitpicking on my part, hope you don't mind.

 

[m. zillch]

Thanks. Good to be here too.

your were right about the voltage being the same, but the current in the wire is different,

Sounds like you've fallen for the exact same clever trick nearly everyone does, even EEs.: you aren't comparing the current at the truly analogous locations in the bi-wire vs. single wire circuits. Luckily I have a secondary video, called Part 2, mostly focusing on exactly this very point (best viewed in full screen mode):

There's only brief narration, but all the sound effects were made by me, even my Admiral Ackbar impersonation!

 

[PENG]

Thanks. Good to be here too.

Sounds like you've fallen for the exact same clever trick nearly everyone does, even EEs.: you aren't comparing the current at the truly analogous locations in the bi-wire vs. single wire circuits. Luckily I have a secondary video, called Part 2, mostly focusing on exactly this very point (best viewed in full screen mode):

There's only brief narration, but all the sound effects were made by me, even my Admiral Ackbar impersonation!

No Mike, I am not one of those who would fall for such "trick", absolutely not. I tried to base my comments on electrical principles. The video you posted is irrelevant to my point, that has nothing to do with wire size, skin effects of whatever, my point is just about the fact that in bi-wire, when done the way it is supposed to be, the current (in terms of frequency spectrum) will be different and can be shown in a scope easily, while the magnitude, in amperes can be measured by a clamp on meter. Wire size of course will have effect, but again in this case, I am ignoring that totally anyway.

My issue, and as I did say I was nitpicking, is that in you part 1 video you demoed the signals were not changed in the two wire feeds, one for the tweeter, the other for the woofer. That is of course true, but you in the demo you measure voltage, that of course would be the same. That does not mean the currents in the two pair of wires/path are the same, and they are 100% not the same if you measured it at the time you did the demo.

The thing is, ff you were to measure currents, then, as you obviously know, the feed wires still have to through the crossover network, so the tweeter feed wire will not be full bandwidth anymore for the bi-wire scenerio, because then the crossover network would have been split into LPF and HPF you shown in your diagram, when the jumpers are removed.

So, in your diagram below, you would be technically incorrect to say the highs and lows only diverge after the speakers crossover, it is a series circuit, that means even before the each pair of wires touches the HPF and LPF terminals, the signal current would already have split. You can measure the currents easily with a clamp on ammeter, and I have done that just to see the difference. I think you know I am right.

You did a fantastic job on those videos to debunk a myth, and I don't mean to nit prick even if I seem to be doing it, I just truly want to highlight this slight technical issue in those demoes as presented, that I thought might, just might, unintentionally mislead someone to think that in bi-wire, both pairs of wires would in fact carry the exact same signal current, when that is not true, though it really won't make a difference in reality, to sound quality.