Yamaha Aventage CX-A5100 Pre/Pro vs RX-A3050 Atmos/DTS:X Receiver

P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
5,882 9 1
#41
I was going to leave this alone as it makes no difference for myself :eek: however, from to the Yamaha CX A5100 manual and this applies to all sources.

"When Pure Direct mode is enabled, the unit plays back the selected source with the least circuitry in order to reduce electrical noise from other circuitry (such as the front display).". It does not indicate that all digital circuitry is bypassed for analogue sources in Pure direct mode, although a circuit diagram would be able to confirm this. However this Yamaha diagram from their site for the Z9 flagship AVR, circa 2004 seems to indicate that analogue inputs do not bypass the ADC section. :(

Perhaps I am still misunderstanding and the diagram is incomplete.

That said, what is the point in using a £2.5K surround processor, bypass all of the features and functions for, as suggested, minimal if any benefit which could literally be replaced by a £10 analogue switch for that "special occasion". This would not require the processor to be fully on (standby not being an option),cut the signal path down even further and remove any erroneous conjecture on my part. :)
In my post#33 I referred to the 2 channel analog inputs and thought the Yamaha may work the same way as my old Denon AVR-3805 that says the following in the operating instructions. I wasn't really sure that's why I stated "Some AVRs and/or AVPs may have......"

upload_2018-4-27_7-25-50.png
 
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Bookmark

Full Audioholic
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322 1
#42
I don't normally use Pure direct mode so it makes little difference for myself. I have viewed a number of previous threads on this topic and other forums in the past and there are comments for both opinions. I do not know if there's a definitive answer one way or the other, for all manufacturers, in all their model ranges. It might be one thing for AVRs, another for AV Processors or the same. High end may differ from lower end models and the past may differ from the present or future. I do know if they can save a buck they usually do and they are unlikely to implement two solutions when one would do. ;) Especially if the difference is marginal.

I am happy if it can be effectively a straight wire between input and output for the RCA/XLR sources, but equally it's not be a deal breaker if it wasn't. Although it might be for some, I suspect it depends largely on how important a direct mode is for the majority of your listening habits, but then again there are other solutions perhaps better suited.

My opinion is always open to change in light of "alternate" facts.:eek:
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
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1,291 9 16
#44
I was going to leave this alone as it makes no difference for myself :eek: however, from to the Yamaha CX A5100 manual and this applies to all sources.

"When Pure Direct mode is enabled, the unit plays back the selected source with the least circuitry in order to reduce electrical noise from other circuitry (such as the front display).". It does not indicate that all digital circuitry is bypassed for analogue sources in Pure direct mode, although a circuit diagram would be able to confirm this. However this Yamaha diagram from their site for the Z9 flagship AVR, circa 2004 seems to indicate that analogue inputs do not bypass the ADC section. :(

Perhaps I am still misunderstanding and the diagram is incomplete.

That said, what is the point in using a £2.5K surround processor, bypass all of the features and functions for, as suggested, minimal if any benefit which could literally be replaced by a £10 analogue switch for that "special occasion". This would not require the processor to be fully on (standby not being an option),cut the signal path down even further and remove any erroneous conjecture on my part. :)
I was referring to the MC inputs, which some still use for SACD. As for the balanced analog stereo inputs ill check this model but on previous generations, all dsp fuctions were bypassed IIRC. Think of it like home theater bypass
 
O

Ovation

Enthusiast
Ratings
3
#45
If I understand correctly, using YPAO, the subwoofer is not EQ'd (which makes it the same as my RX-A1000). I have an Antimode 8033 for my subs and using REW and hours of trial and error, I have gotten a very good (to me anyway) response curve, so I feel no need to do more for my subs. However, I am interested in many of the other features that have emerged since my A1000 became the centrepiece of my system, and have contemplated a move to separates for my next upgrade. So, for the convenient option, would it be correct to say I can just leave my Antimode in place and let this processor's YPAO deal with the other speakers like I do with my current AVR? And, for when I get a lot of free time, I can break out REW and use the manual EQ to further improve the sub response? Lastly, if I choose the labour intensive option of manual EQ, should I take the Antimode out of the equation (or will its already adjusted response simply present an easier task for the manual EQ to deal with)?



The graph shows my (then new) SVS PB2000 without EQ, with Antimode and with Antimode and my old sub (Boston Acoustics PV-900). The SVS w/o EQ was read at a lower output but the effect remains the same (imagine the green trace at about 7dB higher for each point on the trace). Antimode tames bloat at the low end. Extra sub (was originally going to move it to the living room) cures the null. I’m sure I could eke out an even better curve with different sub placement but I have limited options in my small room and am quite happy with what I attained already.
 
F

frans callebaut

Enthusiast
#46
hello Gene,
i have a yamaha cx-a 5100 , but i have read that there's now a successor the cx- 5200. is there any reason why i should prefer the 5200 above the 5100 ?
best regards,
frans callebaut
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ratings
8,307 23 6
#48
Does 5100 have the same bad center balanced output as the newer 5200?
You mean the CX-A5200’s Front Left/Right XLR Output that has a 0.015% THD at 4 Volts and 0.005% THD at 2 Volts. For many amps, 2 Volts = 315 watts max.

I wouldn’t say 0.015% THD is “bad” since you can’t even hear 1% THD.
 
B

Bengt

Audiophyte
#49
No, I was thinking of the center channel. I think Gene said 70db S/N on youtube.
Edit: You are right, it was L/R.
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ratings
514 6 1
#50
You mean the CX-A5200’s Front Left/Right XLR Output that has a 0.015% THD at 4 Volts and 0.005% THD at 2 Volts. For many amps, 2 Volts = 315 watts max
I wouldn’t say 0.015% THD is “bad” since you can’t even hear 1% THD.
Harmonic distortion is easily masked. Non-harmonic produced by SS electronics is not as easily masked.
0.015% is -70 dB not likely audible if that is the worst case?
Better specifications are required to make a determination.

1% is -40 DB and absolutely audible. I posted (years back) that I had detected something wrong listening to music coming from the Right Salon midrange.
That was followed that up with measurements showing the harmonics at -40 dB. It was an ugly sound.

Distortion measurements should always to posted over a frequency range and into load. For example, 1kHz into 100K (a common spec) ohms does not represent the performance of the product 20Hz to 20kHz into a more typical amplifier impedance of 20K or even 10K Ohms.

The frequency range, load, and composition of the distortion matter.

EDIT: Distortion in the inaudible range can matter if the electronics and speakers in the chain modulate that into the audible range so I prefer it to remain at very low levels.

- Rich
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Ratings
5,882 9 1
#51
EDIT: Distortion in the inaudible range can matter if the electronics and speakers in the chain modulate that into the audible range so I prefer it to remain at very low levels.

- Rich
That can happen but should be rare. If and when it does, it should be picked up in the THD+N measurements for the full bandwidth, i.e. 20-20,000 Hz or wider.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Ratings
514 6 1
#52
That can happen but should be rare. If and when it does, it should be picked up in the THD+N measurements for the full bandwidth, i.e. 20-20,000 Hz or wider.
I think wider by definition and the distortion could be from the speakers.

- Rich
 
H

Hardcoretuner

Enthusiast
#53
I have the 3080. Will I even notice a change going to the mx5200? Same wattage per channel allegedly.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
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#54
I have the 3080. Will I even notice a change going to the mx5200? Same wattage per channel allegedly.
Usually most people won't notice any difference regardless of which amp they add.

The MX-A5200 does have a bigger power supply than the A3080.

If you bridge the front Left and Right Channels, the MX-A5200 can output 450 Watts x 2Ch @ 1% THD Continuous if your speakers are 4 ohms. If not Bridged, then the output would be similar to the A3080.
 
H

Hardcoretuner

Enthusiast
#55
If I add this 5200 amp to my 3080. Bridging front channels and putting center channel all on the 5200. Will I noticed improved sound quality at the same listening volume/actual sound volume. What difference would there be in daily use?
I've done a lot of research. and what I can't tie together.
Klipsch RF-7 III wants 250w RMS @ 8ohm. The A3080 does ~150w RMS. Yet research says unnoticeable because no one listens at the volume needed to notice the 1db difference? Or was it a 3db difference? Haha. It's late. Hopefully an expert understands where my disconnect is. I've read lots of articles and watch hours of videos. All to research if I'm getting all I can (safely) from these speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ratings
8,307 23 6
#56
If I add this 5200 amp to my 3080. Bridging front channels and putting center channel all on the 5200. Will I noticed improved sound quality at the same listening volume/actual sound volume. What difference would there be in daily use?
I've done a lot of research. and what I can't tie together.
Klipsch RF-7 III wants 250w RMS @ 8ohm. The A3080 does ~150w RMS. Yet research says unnoticeable because no one listens at the volume needed to notice the 1db difference? Or was it a 3db difference? Haha. It's late. Hopefully an expert understands where my disconnect is. I've read lots of articles and watch hours of videos. All to research if I'm getting all I can (safely) from these speakers.
No, the Klipsch doesn’t “want” 250W RMS.

That’s the maximum recommended power, not what they want.

Keep in mind that too much (Max) power can blow speakers, especially the tweeter and midrange drivers that definitely don’t want 250W RMS.

Those Klipsch have a rated sensitivity of 100dB/2.83V/m, which probably means more like 93dB, which means 9 watt of power will produce 93dB from 3 meters away and 143W will produce 105dB.

Most speakers don’t need more power depending on the volume.

If they don’t NEED more power, then they won’t sound any different at all.
 
H

Hardcoretuner

Enthusiast
#57
No, the Klipsch doesn’t “want” 250W RMS.

That’s the maximum recommended power, not what they want.

Keep in mind that too much (Max) power can blow speakers, especially the tweeter and midrange drivers that definitely don’t want 250W RMS.

Those Klipsch have a rated sensitivity of 100dB/2.83V/m, which probably means more like 93dB, which means 9 watt of power will produce 93dB from 3 meters away and 143W will produce 105dB.

Most speakers don’t need more power depending on the volume.

If they don’t NEED more power, then they won’t sound any different at all.
You sure? They rate the speakers as 250rms 1000max @8ohm. Not 250 max.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Ratings
8,307 23 6
#58
You sure? They rate the speakers as 250rms 1000max @8ohm. Not 250 max.
Look up the difference between “RMS” and “Max” or “Peak” power.

RMS Power = Averaged Continuous Power.

Max or Peak Power = Instant Power for extremely short time, like 100 microseconds.

Of course, Klipsch lies about the sensitivity rating big time, so I would not trust their power rating either. Better stick to no more than 200W RMS to be safe.
 
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