Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Will you really sit at 5 feet from a 80 inches tv to see the details ?
Why not? When playing Flight Simulator, I'd feel like sitting in the cockpit :p

Seriously, another reason why 8K is a pie in the sky in this decade.
 
clone1008

clone1008

Full Audioholic
8K TV station in Japan. There's nothing interesting to watch for a longer period of time - aka no content.
When you wrote, "programme is so "rich" that you would not want to watch it daily." I thought you meant that it hurts your eyes or something.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm not even convinced I can tell between 1080p and 4k unless I'm right on top of it, with my nose touching the screen.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
I remember reading an article about 4K not being asked for by consumers. It was the television manufactures that wanted it to sell new sets due to the low cost of 1080p displays. I image 8K is no different. I mean, how many people do you know who have 4K displays but don’t have a way to actually get 4K content onto it?
Transition 1080p-4K was a jump of different magnitude in comparison to anticipated 4K-8K change. 8K is massively expensive and lacks support from major players in content industry. TV vendors can push it as much as they want. It's not gonig to take-off if studios and broadcasters are not going to create movies, series and other content.

4K ecosystem is being perfected now and getting mature, little by little. It will be there for a long time. I know no one who has 4K TV and has no access to 4K content. Those who have 4K TVs have PC, Amazon Fire Stick, Roku, Apple TV or other HDMI dongles to stream 4K content from Neflix and other apps. AVR is just an add-on to this, to bring immersive audio.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
Transition 1080p-4K was a jump of different magnitude in comparison to anticipated 4K-8K change. 8K is massively expensive and lacks support from major players in content industry. TV vendors can push it as much as they want. It's not gonig to take-off if studios and broadcasters are not going to create movies, series and other content.

4K ecosystem is being perfected now and getting mature, little by little. It will be there for a long time. I know no one who has 4K TV and has no access to 4K content. Those who have 4K TVs have PC, Amazon Fire Stick, Roku, Apple TV or other HDMI dongles to stream 4K content from Neflix and other apps. AVR is just an add-on to this, to bring immersive audio.
Are movies even produced with 8K cameras?
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
I'm not even convinced I can tell between 1080p and 4k unless I'm right on top of it, with my nose touching the screen.
You can experiment with different content and train your eyes. No need to sit very close to TV. The difference in experience also depends on:
- codec and package (10-bit movie packed into 8-bit container could be very close on 4K TV in comparison to image from highest quality disc with 1080 film)
- quality of 4K display - dimmer 4K panels can obscure the difference
- bitrate of content - rich files accentuate the difference and level of detail

Image from some high bitrate, high quality Blu Ray 1080p content is very close to image from 4K UHD discs. Everything depends on mastering and content production process. Usually, the difference is clearly perceived. It happened to me once or twice not to notice it.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I remember reading an article about 4K not being asked for by consumers. It was the television manufactures that wanted it to sell new sets due to the low cost of 1080p displays. I image 8K is no different. I mean, how many people do you know who have 4K displays but don’t have a way to actually get 4K content onto it? I bought my A8A as the first set to get there, the display won’t come until the spring.
Were there 4K contents available when 4K displays were released?

8K displays were released about 3 years ago? Are there any 8K contents available 3 years later?

Here is another thing. Although many movies are shot using 8K digital cameras, All the digital masters I've seen are only up to 4K Digital masters. I've never seen or heard of an 8K Digital Master of any movie.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Take a walk in any Walmart or Target store, you'll see on the boxes 4K UHD, Dolby Vision, HDR 10+ what you won't see on the box is the nit rate you need in order to even fully utilize Dolby Vision.
There is more to it. Luminance or luminosity, measured in nits, is important for any HDR, of course. HDR usually starts at 600-650 nits of sustained brightness and noticeable difference is every ~80 nits. This is when we say: "It looks brighter or dimmer".

To experience good quality Dolby Vision movie, apart from the capability to reach high brightness, a TV should also offer deep black levels, precise local dimming (for LCD TVs), 10-bit colour depth, wide colour gamut BT. 2020, wide viewing angles and accurate colour reproduction. As well as this, a TV needs to reach higher brightness levels and sustain them for longer than a few minutes.

This is why Dolby Vision looks much better on OLED TV than on LCD TV, even if OLED TV does not reach as high luminosity as LCD panel can. My LG C9 has peak luminance 1500 nits and average luminance 800, which is pretty decent for Dolby Vision. TV can have 1800-2000 nits luminance and still have really bad Dolby Vision, if other parametres mentioned above are not designed well.

So, when buying a good TV for Dolby Vision, detailed research into several display characteristics is needed.
 
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Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
@AVR Enthu you mentioned dimmer 4K TV's not being able to reproduce full detail. I'm sure you probably notice already, but I have to ask, (Nit Rate) how bright your 4K can get. From what I understand from research, nit rate needed is no less than a 400 nits in order to take full advantage of what Dolby Vision has to offer. What's your thoughts on that? I've had 65" 4K TV's that didn't have a 300 nit rate, but on the box and in the specs, 4K UHD Dolby Vision HDR 10, 10+. Wouldn't that be considered false advertisement? 4K can't get any brighter than 300 nites you just wasted 600 bucks on a 4K TV that can't give you the Dolby Vision experience. Edit: just read your post above, sure there's more to it. But I see you've done your research also. Well done Jedi.:D
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
There is more to it. Luminance or luminosity, measured in nits, is important for any HDR, of course. HDR usually starts at 600-650 nits of sustained brightness and noticeable difference is every ~80 nits. This is when we say: "It looks brighter or dimmer".

To experience good quality Dolby Vision movie, apart from the capability to reach high brightness, a TV should also offer deep black levels, precise local dimming (for LCD TVs), 10-bit colour depth, wide colour gamut BT. 2020, wide viewing angles and accurate colour reproduction. As well as this, a TV needs to reach higher brightness levels and sustain them for longer than a few minutes.

This is why Dolby Vision looks much better on OLED TV than on LCD TV, even if OLED TV does not reach as high luminosity as LCD panel can. My LG C9 has peak luminance 1500 nits and average luminance 800, which is pretty decent for Dolby Vision. TV can have 1800-2000 nits luminance and still have really bad Dolby Vision, if other parametres mentioned above are not designed well.

So, when buying a good TV for Dolby Vision, detailed research into several display characteristics is needed.
I should have stated 400 nits a bare minimum. That post was a shot at the 4K TV's that one would buy at say Walmart for example. 65" that can be had for umm 600 or so. Most of those won't get you 300 at most nit rate.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Were there 4K contents available when 4K displays were released?
- first 4K TV - LG 2012
- first 4K UHD Blu-ray disc 2016
- first 4K streaming on Netflix and Prime 2014
8K displays were released about 3 years ago? Are there any 8K contents available 3 years later?
Nothing in the mainstream, only short experimental and demo videos. Plus this one Japanese TV channel with skewed content.
 
clone1008

clone1008

Full Audioholic
Here's some of the content the Japanese TV channel NHK lists as 8K
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Here's some of the content the Japanese TV channel NHK lists as 8K
A Stranger in Shanghai must be a 8K blockbuster not to miss! :p
Screenshot 2021-12-01 at 00-32-07 Programs 8K UHDTV|NHK.png
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
So, getting back to what this thread is about. Outside of the 2.1 4K 120 VRR rate for gamers, the 8K thing is pretty much a waste on these AVR's. I gotta ask, why are AVR manufacturers even implementing this technology if 8K isn't ready yet.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
From what I understand from research, nit rate needed is no less than a 400 nits in order to take full advantage of what Dolby Vision has to offer.
400 nits is not enough for HDR. Below is the official VESA's HDR panel classification. It does list 400 both for LCD and OLED panels, but growing number of panel enthusiasts and display calibration organisations are putting a pressure on VESA to drop 400, as many vendors use it to sell fake HDR laptops, TVs and monitors. If anyone wants an entry level HDR, never go below 600 nits, 90% of DCI-P3 and 70% of Rec.2020/2100 colour space.

Two best websites I always use to check reviews and compare TVs and monitors are below. Recommended.

So, getting back to what this thread is about. Outside of the 2.1 4K 120 VRR rate for gamers, the 8K thing is pretty much a waste on these AVR's. I gotta ask, why are AVR manufacturers even implementing this technology if 8K isn't ready yet.
Good AVR needs good TV. ;) For AVRs, it's about bandwidth and how much space certain video signals occupy. New Yamahas should eventually pass-through 40 Gbps signal. In this video pipeline, you can pass through many different resolutions and refresh rates. If port can can 4K/120, it can also do 8K/60. They just need to put all supported resolutions in AVR's EDID, so that as many different TVs, projectors and monitors can work with it.
The maximum is:
4K/120 10-bit RGB uncompressed needs 40 Gbps
8K/60 10-bit 4:2:0 chroma uncompressed need 40 Gbps

These AVRs will be able to do even more with DSC protocol, if source and display support it. For example, an image of 8K/60 10-bit RGB needs 80 Gbps, but because HDMI port is limited to 40 Gbps, AVR would apply DSC to compress it to 40 Gbps in ratio 2:1. Here is the table with data rates.

Unofficial HDMI Bandwidth Chart -.png
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
400 nits is not enough for HDR. Below is the official VESA's HDR panel classification. It does list 400 both for LCD and OLED panels, but growing number of panel enthusiasts and display calibration organisations are putting a pressure on VESA to drop 400, as many vendors use it to sell fake HDR laptops, TVs and monitors. If anyone wants an entry level HDR, never go below 600 nits, 90% of DCI-P3 and 70% of Rec.2020/2100 colour space.

Two best websites I always use to check reviews and compare TVs and monitors are below. Recommended.


Good AVR needs good TV. ;) For AVRs, it's about bandwidth and how much space certain video signals occupy. New Yamahas should eventually pass-through 40 Gbps signal. In this video pipeline, you can pass through many different resolutions and refresh rates. If port can can 4K/120, it can also do 8K/60. They just need to put all supported resolutions in AVR's EDID, so that as many different TVs, projectors and monitors can work with it.
The maximum is:
4K/120 10-bit RGB uncompressed needs 40 Gbps
8K/60 10-bit 4:2:0 chroma uncompressed need 40 Gbps

These AVRs will be able to do even more with DSC protocol, if source and display support it. For example, an image of 8K/60 10-bit RGB needs 80 Gbps, but because HDMI port is limited to 40 Gbps, AVR would apply DSC to compress it to 40 Gbps in ratio 2:1. Here is the table with data rates.

View attachment 51908
I just copied those carts! Very nice bro! Thanks for that info!
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
So, getting back to what this thread is about. Outside of the 2.1 4K 120 VRR rate for gamers, the 8K thing is pretty much a waste on these AVR's. I gotta ask, why are AVR manufacturers even implementing this technology if 8K isn't ready yet.
Purely for marketing reasons and to get the 8k sticker on the box. Some uninformed customers will just think that 8k means future proof cause, you know, 8k is the future
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Field Marshall
Purely for marketing reasons and to get the 8k sticker on the box. Some uninformed customers will just think that 8k means future proof cause, you know, 8k is the future
True, I knew going in getting any AVR with the 8K monker on it was marketing. I went after the Yamaha awesomeness for sound. :D
 
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