Would a Power Amp Help my Denon Receiver?

[Michael Hogan]

I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X1300W Integrated Network AV Receiver.

I'm running:

1. Front R/L- Mirage FRx-Seven Floor Standing (power handling 250W)
2. Surround L/R - Celestion F30 Floor Standing (power handling 120W) or Mirage FRx- 3B Bookshelf (100w)
3. Surround Back L/R- Polk F/X i A6
4. Front- Celestion (my Klipsch RC-250 will be in in 3 weeks)
5. Subs- Mirage 10 inch FRx- S10 and Cerwin Vega 10 inch

Problem:

The front speakers sound crappy in stereo mode (2 speaker). When I biamp the front speakers using the surround back I get crisper, cleaner sound, but I lose the surround back speakers. The sound is better.

My question:

Should I purchase a power amp? I notice my receiver has a pre out. I have never done this, and I don't have a clue where to start or what to look for.

Mike

 

[everettT]

I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X1300W Integrated Network AV Receiver.

I'm running:

1. Front R/L- Mirage FRx-Seven Floor Standing (power handling 250W)
2. Surround L/R - Celestion F30 Floor Standing (power handling 120W) or Mirage FRx- 3B Bookshelf (100w)
3. Surround Back L/R- Polk F/X i A6
4. Subs- Mirage 10 inch FRx- S10 and Cerwin Vega 10 inch

Problem:

The front speakers sound crappy in stereo mode (2 speaker). When I biamp the front speakers using the surround back I get crisper, cleaner sound, but I lose the surround back speakers. The sound is better.

My question:

Should I purchase a power amp? I notice my receiver has a pre out. I have never done this, and I don't have a clue where to start or what to look for.

Mike

Hard to believe biamping off the same power supply would make any difference at all. I think your denon only has zone 2 pre outs so that's gonna kill the external amp.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Well, it is hard to say from here. Room has a major impact. Proper location of speakers in a room is also important.
Without researching speaker sensitivity and the receiver's power capability, hard to say.
Was the sytstem level matching set up properly?

As stated, bi-amping passive speakers is not productive.
Perception can be confusing and misleading, don't forget.

 

[Verdinut]

It looks like your AVR is not powerful enough to drive your speakers. It's power supply is limited and cannot provide enough current for the Mirage transducers.

The solution would be to replace the Denon with a receiver that has pre-outs to enable you to use external amplification. My suggestion would be something like the Marantz SR5012 or the discontinued SR5011 if you can find one with an interesting discount.

For external amplifying, there are several options such as one of the Outlaw and Monoprice Monolith brand units at affordable prices.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I recently purchased a Denon AVR-X1300W ..

Should I purchase a power amp?

Did you say Denon X1300?

The X1000 and X2000 series don't have pre-outs for an external Ampl

You need a Denon X3000, X4000, X6000, or X7000 series to use an external Amp.

 

[Verdinut]

Well, it is hard to say from here. Room has a major impact. Proper location of speakers in a room is also important.
Without researching speaker sensitivity and the receiver's power capability, hard to say.
Was the sytstem level matching set up properly?

As stated, bi-amping passive speakers is not productive.
Perception can be confusing and misleading, don't forget.

The OP was not passively bi-amping with his X1300 AVR. He was using the surround back amps to actively bi-amplify the left and right front channels, a feature found in some Denon and Marantz receivers.

As for the Mirage speakers, I suspect that they represent a low impedance at low frequencies which demand too much current from the AVR limited power supply.

 

[Verdinut]

On their site, Denon specify that the AVR-X1300W has a 0.2 Pre-out. Does someone know what it means?
They are indeed very clear in their information!

 

[Steve81]

On their site, Denon specify that the AVR-X1300W has a 0.2 Pre-out. Does someone know what it means?
They are indeed very clear in their information!

If you look at images of the AVR-X1300W, the pre-outs are for the subwoofer(s) only.

 

[Michael Hogan]

So to be clear, the Pre Out (Zone 2) L/R on the AVR-X1300W cannot be used for external amplification?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The OP was not passively bi-amping with his X1300 AVR. He was using the surround back amps to actively bi-amplify the left and right front channels, a feature found in some Denon and Marantz receivers.

Did he use an external Crossover or somehow remove the internal crossover of the speakers?

Or did he use the LFE of the AVR and use an external amp to power the bass section of the speakers?

Otherwise, it looks like passive bi-amp to me.

By definition, Active Bi-amp means you have to use an external Crossover before amping the speakers.

So if he is simply using the AVR's back surround amps to "bi-amp" his speakers, it's just passive bi-amp or just bi-wiring.

Notice how when the Denon X1000 series is using only 2Ch, the power output is 126WPC x 2Ch. But when it is using 5Ch, the power output is only 78WPC x 5Ch?

So the AVR is not sending 126W x 2Ch and another 126W x 2Ch from the surround amps.

It is sending 78WPC x 2Ch + 78WPC x 2Ch from the surround amps, which is really not any more than 126W x 2ch.

It's really a gimmick.

Here is another example - the $850 Yamaha 775 AVR.

For 2Ch, it's almost 150WPC. But for 5Ch, it's only about 50WPC.

So it would be either 150WPC x 2Ch or 50WPC x 2Ch + 50WPC x 2Ch.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v775wa-av-receiver

With the Denon, it's about the same power output, which is already a total waste of time. With this $850 Yamaha, it's actually worse!!!

 

[Michael Hogan]

Hi Steve

I have two pre outs for 2 subs and a pre out l/r for Zone 2

 

[lovinthehd]

On their site, Denon specify that the AVR-X1300W has a 0.2 Pre-out. Does someone know what it means?
They are indeed very clear in their information!

That means it has an internal splitter for a two sub pre-outs, not very meaningful at all. You could have a ".1" sub pre-out and use a splitter to same effect unless the avr has the ability to separately set level/delay for two subs (like with SubEq/XT32)

ps welcome to stupid poop marketing

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So to be clear, the Pre Out (Zone 2) L/R on the AVR-X1300W cannot be used for external amplification?

It can be used for external amp for the SECOND zone only, not for the Main zone.

 

[Michael Hogan]

Makes sense now. So my "Zone 2" with the use of a good stereo amp could power good speakers and give me good stereo sound? OR will I also be limited with the kind of Stereo Amp I can pair with the Denon?

 

[Steve81]

Hi Steve

I have two pre outs for 2 subs and a pre out l/r for Zone 2

So to be clear, the Pre Out (Zone 2) L/R on the AVR-X1300W cannot be used for external amplification?

As mentioned, Zone 2 pre-outs really don't help either. They won't include basics like delays for distance, bass management, or Audyssey corrections.

 

[Michael Hogan]

So a stereo amp can be "hooked Up" to the Denon Receiver through the Zone two L/R. So I don't make a second mistake and waste more money, what stereo amp should I consider?

 

[Verdinut]

Did he use an external Crossover or somehow remove the internal crossover of the speakers?

Or did he use the LFE of the AVR and use an external amp to power the bass section of the speakers?

Otherwise, it looks like passive bi-amp to me.

By definition, Active Bi-amp means you have to use an external Crossover before amping the speakers.

So if he is simply using the AVR's back surround amps to "bi-amp" his speakers, it's just passive bi-amp or just bi-wiring.

Notice how when the Denon X1000 series is using only 2Ch, the power output is 126WPC x 2Ch. But when it is using 5Ch, the power output is only 78WPC x 5Ch?

So the AVR is not sending 126W x 2Ch and another 126W x 2Ch from the surround amps.

It is sending 78WPC x 2Ch + 78WPC x 2Ch from the surround amps, which is really not any more than 126W x 2ch.

It's really a gimmick.

Here is another example - the $850 Yamaha 775 AVR.

For 2Ch, it's almost 150WPC. But for 5Ch, it's only about 50WPC.

So it would be either 150WPC x 2Ch or 50WPC x 2Ch + 50WPC x 2Ch.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/yamaha-rx-v775wa-av-receiver

With the Denon, it's about the same power output, which is already a total waste of time. With this $850 Yamaha, it's actually worse!!!

So if he is simply using the AVR's back surround amps to "bi-amp" his speakers, it's just passive bi-amp or just bi-wiring.

No. With my Marantz SR5010, I did actively bi-amplify the two front left and right channels for a while before purchasing the QSC DCA1222 Power amps for the purpose. This AVR provides for active bi-amping with internal electronic crossovers:
img005.jpg

That is what the OP did with the X1300.

 

[Verdinut]

So a stereo amp can be "hooked Up" to the Denon Receiver through the Zone two L/R. So I don't make a second mistake and waste more money, what stereo amp should I consider?

The Denon X1300 does not have pre-outs for the front left and right channels, so it's impossible to connect an external amp, except for Zone 2.
You would need to get an AVR with the appropriate pre-outs. See post #4 for my recommendation.

Cheers,

 

[everettT]

So if he is simply using the AVR's back surround amps to "bi-amp" his speakers, it's just passive bi-amp or just bi-wiring.

No. With my Marantz SR5010, I did actively bi-amplify the two front left and right channels for a while before purchasing the QSC DCA1222 Power amps for the purpose. This AVR provides for active bi-amping with internal electronic crossovers:
img005.jpg

That is what the OP did with the X1300.

That is called passive biamping, you still use the speakers passive crossover. Only a hand full of speakers are designed for passive biamping ( and they are designed with jumpers that reconfigure the crossover) that are available.

 

[Michael Hogan]

Multi-Source/Multi-room


With the AVR-X1300W it's possible to enjoy 5.1-channel surround in one room, while another 'zone' plays another source–such as CD or streaming audio. You can simply connect a pair of stereo speakers to the multi-room amplified outputs. Or, connect a separate stereo amp and speakers to the Zone 2 pre-outs, allowing full 7 channel surround sound in the main room with stereo in the second.