Would a Power Amp Help my Denon Receiver?

[Michael Hogan]

Page 142 of my manual

Connection 2 : Connection using an external
amplifier (ZONE2)
The audio signals of this unit’s ZONE2 audio output connectors are
output to the ZONE2 amplifiers and played on these amplifiers.

 

[Michael Hogan]

Regarding post 17

That's exactly what I did.

 

[Verdinut]

That is called passive biamping, you still use the speakers passive crossover. Only a hand full of speakers are designed for passive biamping ( and they are designed with jumpers that reconfigure the crossover) that are available.

What you mention is inexact. I did actively bi-amp my front left and right speakers with the Marantz SR5010 with its inboard electronic crossovers as indicated on Page 46 of the Owner's Manual. (See attached page in post #17)
I did not need to use a passive crossover for the Dayton subs used in my DIY front speakers. I know damn well what is active bi-amping and what is passive.

 

[roadwarrior]

What you mention is inexact.

No, it's not.

I did actively bi-amp my front left and right speakers with the Marantz SR5010 with its inboard electronic crossovers as indicated on Page 46 of the Owner's Manual. (See attached page in post #17)
I did not need to use a passive crossover for the Dayton subs used in my DIY front speakers. I know damn well what is active bi-amping and what is passive.

You've added the word "active" here not Denon's literature. Except for that junk about back EMF making the tweeters shine there's no mention whatsoever about active anything. Wonder why that is? Here's the pic again so you can actually read what it states and what it doesn't.

And here's the 2016 Denon's owners thread faqs section sticky on Denon/Marantz bi-amp on AVS:

"known as "passive bi-amping") generally produces no noticeable improvement in either audio quality nor extra power as you're simply sending the same full range signal to each set of posts on the bi-ampable speaker (which they would still get with a single connection) from the same single power supply in the AVR."

 

[Verdinut]

No, it's not.

That is the page from the Owner's Manual for my Marantz SR5010.

If I'm mistaken, could you explain to me why Marantz would talk about a passive bi-amping? I don't think so.


You've added the word "active" here not Denon's literature. Except for that junk about back EMF making the tweeters shine there's no mention whatsoever about active anything. Wonder why that is? Here's the pic again so you can actually read what it states and what it doesn't.

 

[roadwarrior]

I've edited my post with more info so your answer is in that edit.

 

[Verdinut]

When you use 2 amplifiers with no passive crossover in between, in order to divide the frequency range, you definitely require electronic crossovers. I know for a fact, because I used the feature for a certain period, and there was no mid or high frequency signal coming out of the subs, and no signal below 200 Hz going to the mid-woofers.
Then, if that was not active bi-amping????

 

[Verdinut]

No, it's not.



You've added the word "active" here not Denon's literature. Except for that junk about back EMF making the tweeters shine there's no mention whatsoever about active anything. Wonder why that is? Here's the pic again so you can actually read what it states and what it doesn't.

And here's the 2016 Denon's owners thread faqs section sticky on Denon/Marantz bi-amp on AVS:

"known as "passive bi-amping") generally produces no noticeable improvement in either audio quality nor extra power as you're simply sending the same full range signal to each set of posts on the bi-ampable speaker (which they would still get with a single connection) from the same single power supply in the AVR."

That is the page from the Owner's Manual for my Marantz SR5010.

If I'm mistaken, then could you explain why Marantz would allow a feature for passive bi-amping with 2 amplifiers for each speaker ? That seems really ackward!

Passive biamping with the use of 2 amplifiers on same speaker is an audiophool idea!

 

[Verdinut]

I've just verified on the active crossover question. Marantz did confirm to someone on the AVS forum that the biamping feature in their SR Series receivers is indeed active.

 

[roadwarrior]

I've just verified on the active crossover question. Marantz did confirm to someone on the AVS forum that the biamping feature in their SR Series receivers is indeed active.

Great! Then have that outsourced customer service rep get the engineers/marketing team at D&M to change their own owners manuals to reflect that(kind of important) fact then. You want to know why they won't? Because it's not true.

The SR series Marantz's are just the Denon X2*00/X3*00/X4*00 models with HDAM , multi channel analog and phono inputs and none of this drivel has ever been "confirmed" in any of those owners threads with the exact same receivers.

While your at it get the AVS Marantz owners thread to revamp their own sticky as well:

"(17) Circuit diagram on how passive bi-amping and bi-wiring is accomplished is shown in post number 4,621. Chuck Hawks explains in simple English the issue of passive bi-amping/bi-wiring in the following article here:http://www.chuckhawks.com/bi-wire_bi-amp.htm"

 

[roadwarrior]

@Verdinut and here's another quote from the Marantz owners thread resident expert Selden Bell on the topic:

"Unfortunately, "passive" biamping, which is what you're describing, does nothing useful for sound quality. AVR manufacturers include it only because it's a salespoint buzzword that some people have heard about, and it's cheap to provide. It doesn't do anything harmful, though, except to your wallet for purchasing additional cables. (I hope you aren't wasting your money on Botiquespeaker cables. If a company mentions "oxygen free copper" in their ads, you're wasting your money.)"

"To do biamping properly (aka active biamping), you need a high quality external digital crossover system between each of the drivers in your speakers, with a separate amplifier for each driver, along with the audio test equipment to verify the crossovershave been done correctly. It involves a lot more understanding and effort than most people have available."


And another posters comments on that last part:

"If programming the electronic crossover does not account for all of the circuitry of the original loudspeaker crossover altering the signal to express the loudspeaker designer's intent, then it is sure to diminish the sound produced by the loudspeakers."

 

[Verdinut]

@Verdinut and here's another quote from the Marantz owners thread resident expert Selden Bell on the topic:

"Unfortunately, "passive" biamping, which is what you're describing, does nothing useful for sound quality. AVR manufacturers include it only because it's a salespoint buzzword that some people have heard about, and it's cheap to provide. It doesn't do anything harmful, though, except to your wallet for purchasing additional cables. (I hope you aren't wasting your money on Botiquespeaker cables. If a company mentions "oxygen free copper" in their ads, you're wasting your money.)"

"To do biamping properly (aka active biamping), you need a high quality external digital crossover system between each of the drivers in your speakers, with a separate amplifier for each driver, along with the audio test equipment to verify the crossovershave been done correctly. It involves a lot more understanding and effort than most people have available."


And another posters comments on that last part:

"If programming the electronic crossover does not account for all of the circuitry of the original loudspeaker crossover altering the signal to express the loudspeaker designer's intent, then it is sure to diminish the sound produced by the loudspeakers."

I know quite a bit about electronic crossovers, but you don't necessarily need an electronic crossover between each of the drivers. An electronic crossover doesn't necessarily have to be digital to work satisfactorily either.

I don't agree with the fact that the electronic crossover has to take into account of the original crossover. An electronic crossover consists of a very simple circuit and it doesn't have to be complex. As long as you use the appropriate filter frequency and the slope order for the used transducers, then if the frequency curve is not acceptable, it can always be corrected with proper EQ. It's a lot simpler this way and I am satisfied with the results I obtain.

At present, I am biamping my front speakers and I am using DIY passive crossovers between the mid-woofers and the tweeters. The DBX223XS electronic crossovers are used between the mid-woofers and the subs serving as woofers.

Active or passive? I wouldn't care less! I am no longer using that biamping feature on the SR5010.

 

[everettT]

Multi-Source/Multi-room


With the AVR-X1300W it's possible to enjoy 5.1-channel surround in one room, while another 'zone' plays another source–such as CD or streaming audio. You can simply connect a pair of stereo speakers to the multi-room amplified outputs. Or, connect a separate stereo amp and speakers to the Zone 2 pre-outs, allowing full 7 channel surround sound in the main room with stereo in the second.

Are you expecting a different answer, because it's still the same.

 

[roadwarrior]

I know quite a bit about electronic crossovers, but you don't necessarily need an electronic crossover between each of the drivers. An electronic crossover doesn't necessarily have to be digital to work satisfactorily either.

I don't agree with the fact that the electronic crossover has to take into account of the original crossover. An electronic crossover consists of a very simple circuit and it doesn't have to be complex. As long as you use the appropriate filter frequency and the slope order for the used transducers, then if the frequency curve is not acceptable, it can always be corrected with proper EQ. It's a lot simpler this way and I am satisfied with the results I obtain.

At present, I am biamping my front speakers and I am using DIY passive crossovers between the mid-woofers and the tweeters. The DBX223XS electronic crossovers are used between the mid-woofers and the subs serving as woofers.

All of this is great but none of what you are talking about here is germain to the OP's situation and is best discussed with others interested in actual active bi-amping. I'm familiar with the science/academia behind it and the reasons for doing it in certain situations but I don't DIY my speakers or run at levels requiring anything like this and neither does the OP. You're own personal setup seems very nice but irrelevant in this particular thread.

Passive not Active ! I wouldn't care less! I am no longer using that biamping feature on the SR5010.

Fixed that for you. Right, you don't care but you're giving incorrect information to a poster who doesn't have the setup or knowledge you currently have. A setup by the way that I'm sure was due to the "correct" information you were obviously given by others in the past to be able to build your own speakers and run active crossovers. Facts matter more than the "Well, I got mine now so I just don't care" argument you seem to be making. Least I'm sure they do to people coming to these audio forums for help.

I'd love to hear your speakers by the way. Your setup seems great.

 

[roadwarrior]

It looks like your AVR is not powerful enough to drive your speakers. It's power supply is limited and cannot provide enough current for the Mirage transducers.

Also here's the specs on his transducers:

Nominal Impedance

8 Ohm

Recommended Amplifier Power

15 Watt

Sensitivity

91 dB

They don't seem very hard to power based on these specs and that receiver should be able to drive them fine. My guess is there's something else going on like maybe taking Audyssey's mic measurements too close to a boundary, not taking all 6/8 measurements or spacing the mic out too far between measurements or not taking the first one centered directly between ear level at the MLP.

Toeing the speakers in a bit before rerunning Audyssey could also help as well as making sure there's an equilateral triangle set between the mains and the MLP then setting the mains back to small and raising the 40HZ receiver set crossover to 80HZ and bumping up his sub levels several dB from within the receivers speaker/manual test tones section post Audyssey. There's also a restorer feature under the audio settings to help with compressed audio signals if his source material is being streamed.

The solution would be to replace the Denon with a receiver that has pre-outs to enable you to use external amplification. My suggestion would be something like the Marantz SR5012 or the discontinued SR5011 if you can find one with an interesting discount.

For external amplifying, there are several options such as one of the Outlaw and Monoprice Monolith brand units at affordable prices.

This is all assuming that lack of power is the actual problem. Running in stereo only with efficient 8 Ohm mains doesn't strike me as a great power suck on a Denon amp that always seem to bench test well.

Could also be he needs an inexpensive boom mic stand with a camera adapter to mount the Audyssey mic on instead of the cardboard rocket ship it ships with or a cardboard box some have used. Or it could be some simple settings changes in the receiver itself or a change in his seating position. Best to try the simple troubleshooting things first before throwing dollars at an outboard amp but I like your recommends.

 

[roadwarrior]

OP try Audyssey Flat which is also known as Audyssey Music under the audio-> Audyssey settings. I'd also engage Dynamic EQ and set the Reference Level Offset to 10dB and leave Dynamic Volume off. The Flat setting removes the built in frequency response dip built into the Reference setting at 2KHZ and sounds better to some for music.

 

[Leemix]

While bi-amping as done with the Denon reciever dont give more overall power it does somewhat seperate the mid/tweet and bass amplification. The mid/tweet can be less burdened by the bass, and remain as the OP wrote, crisper and cleaner. I used to do this with my old speakers and amp (Infinity kappa 80 and Parasound 2205) splitting with a Y rca cable pair instead of settings in a reciever (seperates). On the very powerhungry kappas this worked a treat at any volume level.
This was a bit much text but in essence it seems your speakers, while easy to run, want more power then what the denon provides to shine. If you are able get a more powerful reciever, possibly with pre out for future upgrades.

 

[PENG]

I would forget about external amp and get a better AVR such as:

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3300W-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01HL8KYAY

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3300W-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01HL8KYAY

See the AH review here, it comes with bench test results:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1

Those little Mirage speakers may have impedance dips, but with 5-1/4" woofers and nominal impedance of 8 ohms, I doubt it would dip below 4 Ohms, otherwise they wouldn't have recommended 15W-200W. For multichannel materials, your X1300W may struggle at times, but then if you crossover the speakers at 100 Hz or even 90 Hz, it shouldn't be that bad. So until you get a better AVR, with or without an external amp, play with your settings.

The power you need is largely determined by your room dimensions, where you sit and how loud you listen to, so time to try the following linked calculator.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

While bi-amping as done with the Denon reciever dont give more overall power it does somewhat seperate the mid/tweet and bass amplification. The mid/tweet can be less burdened by the bass, and remain as the OP wrote, crisper and cleaner. I used to do this with my old speakers and amp (Infinity kappa 80 and Parasound 2205) splitting with a Y rca cable pair instead of settings in a reciever (seperates). On the very powerhungry kappas this worked a treat at any volume level.
This was a bit much text but in essence it seems your speakers, while easy to run, want more power then what the denon provides to shine. If you are able get a more powerful reciever, possibly with pre out for future upgrades.

The tweeters and midrange probably need about 1-10W. It's the bass that need all the power. But if he sets the speakers to small and Bass Crossover to 80-100Hz, his dual subwoofers will be handling the most of the bass that requires the most power.

 

[PENG]

Active or passive? I wouldn't care less! I am no longer using that biamping feature on the SR5010.

I understand your point on this, but as a matter of terminology, you were clearly passive biamping with your Marantz AVR back then.

There is no need for me to explain the details because AH actually has a great write-up on this topic, thanks to Steve. I have read numerous online articles on the differences and merits about biwiring, active and passive biamp schemes, and so far I have not seen a better one than Steve's, in terms of accuracy and readability.

http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring