Will an external amp boost just volume, or improve overall sound quality?

[PENG]

Agreed. MDS writes with great brevity.

He certainly summarized it nicely.

 

[Buckle-meister]

...I'm speaking of posts by persons that use a lot of smiley and winky faces...

Oh oh.

 

[little wing]

phew...McIntosh...we're talking some serious $$$ here!

The reason I'm asking all this amp stuff is b/c I do feel that the response on the speakers is a tad bit thin, especially on the mains. I'm just looking for something to push my system a little closer to the 'wow' range. of course, i could just save up about 50 grand and take the easy way out. But then i would't have a life, now would I?

I wish I had an easy button...

I know exactly what you mean when you say the Yammy 2500 sounds a bit thin. No matter how much this receiver is hyped up in reviews it just doesn't give you really good 2 channel sound. (IMO) I have been using one for about a year now. I tried using a external amp for the front 2 channels, and it did improve the sound slightly. But I am shopping for a new receiver. Here is my short List:

NAD T763- probably out due to reliability issues.
Arcam AVR 300- Expensive at $1600
Rotel- Forget the model number at the minute
Integra DTR 7.6

I don't mean to say the 2500 is a bad receiver. It has great features it does perform well. It is easy to set-up ( but you have know what you are doing in order to tweak it) It sounds great for movies. My problem is I need one receiver to do everything, as music is most important to me.

(Numenorian) Try an external amp BEFORE you commit to buying one.

 

[Pyrrho]

If I had the money, I probably would buy a very expensive amp, but based on my experience with cheaper amps, I won't expect a huge difference. I think most people would agree that speakers can sound hugely different. Isn't a fair question to ask, 'why do amplifiers sound different?' I've seen test data of how speakers introduce distortion, but I haven't seen test data for amplifiers. Can you see my problem here? I don't have a clue how amplifiers work, and in my mind, the more powerful the amplifier is, the louder you can play your music. Speaker companies say that the demands made on an amp are very complex and that the power handling requirements are actually quite difficult to specify. I'm sure that this is true, but this isn't all that helpful when it comes to buying equipment, all with the intention of having a good system which works well together. All of my experience with hi-fi leads me to believe that speakers make most of the difference. I'm sure hifihoney's amps are brilliant, but I'm not sold on the idea of buying an expensive amp. Even if I was, I don't have that kind of money. I'd rather buy something else, like some new speakers, because then at least I'll hear a major improvement/change.



As I said earlier, I've never owned one of these very expensive amps and therefore have no experience with them. How many watts do you need? How much money should you spend? I don't have a clue and I can't be bothered to think about it. I do find it a pain though seeing What Hi-Fi? saying 'A/V receivers sound worse with music... CD players need break-in... these speaker cables sound open and bright...' Isn't hi-fi a science? Do Bowers and Wilkins design their speakers by only listening to them? Of course they don't, they use advanced physics, engineering and computer technology to make their speakers. Do Krell and Quad listen to every resistor in their amps to check for differences? Do they break-in their electrolytes? Where does this non-scientific approach stop?

Of course you are right that speakers make more difference than anything else in the chain (other than the source [e.g., the CD, not the CD player] and room acoustics). Absolutely NO ONE makes a speaker with the fidelity of the average CD player or average amplifier. All have frequency response aberrations and high levels of distortion that, if a CD player or amplifier were as bad, would be called total garbage. That is, the very best speakers ever made are vastly inferior to the average CD player or amplifier, and no CD player or amplifier that had the frequency response curve and distortion of the best speaker would be worth owning. So, obviously, you need to put much more effort into getting the best speakers you can, and then whatever amplifier will be needed for it. If the best speakers you can get are an easy load and of reasonable efficiency, they will be better with a "mid-fi" receiver than a lesser speaker with the best amplification on the planet. Of course, if the best speaker you can get your hands on is a difficult load or terribly inefficient, then you will need to spend a bit more on an amplifier that can handle it.

Of course, the people who deny the above are free to spend their money on whatever they wish, but it doesn't alter the fact that they are wrong, and are giving bad advice when they tell others to spend their money on things that cannot make as much difference as speakers.

 

[mulester7]

With all due respect Mule exchange expensive boutique speaker wire for amplifier and your post is exactly what the supporters of expensive speaker wire post. And they get a lot of heat in this forum, as they should IMO. AH is not a mutual admiration society but a forum for an exchange of ideas and opinions.

.....UNCLE....I give, Guys, I give, haha....when I get a lone post like this for my efforts, I know there's no hope....I'll remove some posts here....receivers fit the bill just fine....everybody have a good day, and I mean that......

 

[tbewick]

I did have a look at that link mulester7, that is before you removed it (http://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/electronics.html). I think the only thing I could afford at the moment is the cap. I'm actually saving up for this set up:

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/local.news/ObjectID/E2E27837-BF8E-4EA5-8BB92B1FFCB15967

Perhaps I'll have enough money in twenty or so years. Those 82 pound Classé’s CA-M400's would probably be a bit too much for my 30 watt Tannoy Lancasters, so I'll stick with my Denon receiver.

 

[mulester7]

.....Tbewick, good man again, and thank goodness we're all a cut above the speakers that are built into a TV....that's what counts....I never had any intention of implying receivers aren't good stuff and don't fit needs in grand style.....

 

[mardelgo]

I know exactly what you mean when you say the Yammy 2500 sounds a bit thin. No matter how much this receiver is hyped up in reviews it just doesn't give you really good 2 channel sound. (IMO) I have been using one for about a year now. I tried using a external amp for the front 2 channels, and it did improve the sound slightly. But I am shopping for a new receiver.

I don't mean to say the 2500 is a bad receiver. It has great features it does perform well. It is easy to set-up ( but you have know what you are doing in order to tweak it) It sounds great for movies. My problem is I need one receiver to do everything, as music is most important to me.

(Numenorian) Try an external amp BEFORE you commit to buying one.

Another vote, no matter the very good reviews of the 1500 or 2500 I too think this receivers have a thin sound . I buy a rx-v1400 and change it for a 7 years old DSP-A1(men what a difference). (I know the DSP-A1 was top of the line, but come on, 7 years for tech is a lot time.) But maybe the improve Dac´s and amps on the 2600 will make a difference.

 

[ht_addict]

.....UNCLE....I give, Guys, I give, haha....when I get a lone post like this for my efforts, I know there's no hope....I'll remove some posts here....receivers fit the bill just fine....everybody have a good day, and I mean that......

Come on mulester7, don't be a baby. The whole point off these forums is to supply information. You have your opinion, we have ours. You attack our beliefs we attack yours. As long as everything is civilized about it, it is upto the reader to make their own decision which one to follow.

 

[PENG]

Perhaps I'll have enough money in twenty or so years. Those 82 pound Classé’s CA-M400's would probably be a bit too much for my 30 watt Tannoy Lancasters, so I'll stick with my Denon receiver.

I actually measured the current output from my 3805 into the woofers of my speakers that were bi-wired. At 96.5 dB SPL measured from 2 meters away, the highest I got it to go was approx. 3A using track one of Telarc's Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s. With a 200WPC slave amp, the current was almost exactly the same. The currents into the mid and high frequency drivers were much lower. I did this experiement after flip flopping between with and without the slave amp and could not hear much difference using 3 different pairs of speakers.

My little experiment seem to indicate that the Denon is not current (or power) limited for my needs and in my smallish 11.5X18X8 room. I am not sure it can push one of those B&W's. Regardless, I am also saving up for the 802D, or at least the 803D. When that day come, I hope my 300WPC amp can do the job.

 

[tbewick]

My little experiment seem to indicate that the Denon is not current (or power) limited for my needs and in my smallish 11.5X18X8 room. I am not sure it can push one of those B&W's. Regardless, I am also saving up for the 802D, or at least the 803D. When that day come, I hope my 300WPC amp can do the job.

I think my Denon would be intimidated just looking at those 800's.

 

[PENG]

I think my Denon would be intimidated just looking at those 800's.

I can tell you this, the first time I listened to the 802D, it was powered by a 125WX2 Musical Fidelity, then the rep replaced it with a 600WX2 Bryston 14B SST. I was pretty sure the Bryston sounded a little clearer at very loud level.

So if you are saving up, I hope you mean saving up for a big amp as well. I don't believe the recommended Classe or Krell monoblock are absolutely needed, but something like a Bryston is probably a minimum. You see, that's one reason why people like to play with power amps so much, they are inexpensive relative to high end loudspeakers and preamps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I actually measured the current output from my 3805 into the woofers of my speakers that were bi-wired. At 96.5 dB SPL measured from 2 meters away, the highest I got it to go was approx. 3A using track one of Telarc's Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s. With a 200WPC slave amp, the current was almost exactly the same. The currents into the mid and high frequency drivers were much lower. I did this experiement after flip flopping between with and without the slave amp and could not hear much difference using 3 different pairs of speakers.

My little experiment seem to indicate that the Denon is not current (or power) limited for my needs and in my smallish 11.5X18X8 room. I am not sure it can push one of those B&W's. Regardless, I am also saving up for the 802D, or at least the 803D. When that day come, I hope my 300WPC amp can do the job.

Yes, that Fanfare for the Common Man is impressive.
Any chance of repeating this experiment and get the voltage with that 3A spot to calculate the power? How much less in the mids and hi branch, and power?

 

[ht_addict]

I actually measured the current output from my 3805 into the woofers of my speakers that were bi-wired. At 96.5 dB SPL measured from 2 meters away, the highest I got it to go was approx. 3A using track one of Telarc's Copland Appalachian Spring at around 2m30s to 2m:50s. With a 200WPC slave amp, the current was almost exactly the same. The currents into the mid and high frequency drivers were much lower. I did this experiement after flip flopping between with and without the slave amp and could not hear much difference using 3 different pairs of speakers.

My little experiment seem to indicate that the Denon is not current (or power) limited for my needs and in my smallish 11.5X18X8 room. I am not sure it can push one of those B&W's. Regardless, I am also saving up for the 802D, or at least the 803D. When that day come, I hope my 300WPC amp can do the job.

So how did you measure the output? The reading I get from my AVS2000 fluctuates between 3.2-3.5A when watching a movie. The first 3A draw comes form everything thats hooked to the AVS(tv, dvd, receiver, sub).

 

[PENG]

Yes, that Fanfare for the Common Man is impressive.
Any chance of repeating this experiment and get the voltage with that 3A spot to calculate the power? How much less in the mids and hi branch, and power?

I'll try and do that when I am alone in the house because I don't want anyone to get heart attack. I would use ear plugs this time and get it up to the same SPL level from 4 meters away. Really, people who listen to music at loud level regularly should consult an audiologist or a doctor, about the adverse effects on their hearing. 96 dB SPL is pretty scarely to me. Anyway, I'll get back to you once I have the results.

 

[Buckle-meister]

...if you are saving up, I hope you mean saving up for a big amp as well. I don't believe the recommended Classe or Krell monoblock are absolutely needed, but something like a Bryston is probably a minimum.

I'm not so sure Peng. I've personally heard the B&W 800Ds and they weren't powered by anything that one would consider 'beefy'. It may or may not be true that they'll sound better with greater muscle behind them (don't want to get into that argument again ), but I don't think that with a sensitivity of 90dB/W/m and power handling from 50W that a beefy power amp is necessarily a prerequisite.

 

[highfihoney]

I can tell you this, the first time I listened to the 802D, it was powered by a 125WX2 Musical Fidelity, then the rep replaced it with a 600WX2 Bryston 14B SST. I was pretty sure the Bryston sounded a little clearer at very loud level.

So if you are saving up, I hope you mean saving up for a big amp as well. I don't believe the recommended Classe or Krell monoblock are absolutely needed, but something like a Bryston is probably a minimum. You see, that's one reason why people like to play with power amps so much, they are inexpensive relative to high end loudspeakers and preamps.

i owned the 802d's for a while & there is merit to what you just wrote,i found that amp current played the larger role over wattage.

 

[PENG]

I'm not so sure Peng. I've personally heard the B&W 800Ds and they weren't powered by anything that one would consider 'beefy'. It may or may not be true that they'll sound better with greater muscle behind them (don't want to get into that argument again ), but I don't think that with a sensitivity of 90dB/W/m and power handling from 50W that a beefy power amp is necessarily a prerequisite.

It sounded great with the 125WPC MF amp too but the rep wouldn't crank it up too loud for me before switching to the 14B SST. It was still pretty loud but with the 14BSST we cranked it right up after closing the doors. Again it was not a DBT so it could still be just Placebo effect of the Bryston. Apparently it does not take much clipped signals to damage those diamond tweeters so I don't blame the rep who wouldn't do much with the smaller amp.

 

[PENG]

So how did you measure the output? The reading I get from my AVS2000 fluctuates between 3.2-3.5A when watching a movie. The first 3A draw comes form everything thats hooked to the AVS(tv, dvd, receiver, sub).

It seems to me you and I were measuring different things. I use a clamp-on meter to measure the current in the 12 gauge speaker cable that feeds the low frequency drivers, then the other 12 ga. that feeds the mid and high frequency drivers. The meter is supposed to be able to measure signals within a frequency range of 40 to 1000 Hz accurately and display true r.m.s. values.

I should have, but I did not measure the voltage output at the same time. I guess it would not be much more than 10 to 15V. 3A at 120V and p.f. of 0.8 would be a power draw of about 288W from the wall outlet. 3A at 12V at similar p.f. would be only 28.8W (one channel), factoring in efficiency loss, the draw form the 120V outlet could be as high as 40 to 50W or 80 to 100W two channels combined.

 

[PENG]

i owned the 802d's for a while & there is merit to what you just wrote,i found that amp current played the larger role over wattage.

Did you own the 802D or the 802? If I remember correctly you are not a fan it. I have not listened to any 802 but I really like the 802D. It was great overall but the violin sound was intoxicating yet so sweet. That being said, as we all know by now, this sound quality thing is a highly subjective matter.