Will a 3-channel separate Amp mellow big two tower speakers?

[Golfx]

Are you just totally against getting better speakers? You are really searching for fixes that will not really work. As suggested above get new speakers and you will be pleased in the long run.

March audio near perth also sells world quality speakers that have rave reviews. And as you mentioned Kef as well. Sometimes it is hard to admit we have purchased bad speakers—they usually show up as tiring to listen to after awhile.

 

[TLS Guy]

All those are European or American brands - currently Aussie dollar is low. Plus postage will be high. I found this Aussie brand (Elektra) if someone could have a look - on paper it looks extremely impressive three channel amp. Damping factor > 5000 freq response starts from 5 Hz (Blah blah?) The link is from a retailer: https://www.westcoasthifi.com.au/shop/2-channel-audio/power-amplifier/elektra-hd2-power-amplifier/. Obviously a costly purchase - only if needed after Dirac bass licence.

You are looking for solutions that are not going to help improve your sound.

There is good and very reliable data on all the drivers in your speakers. I am certain that your issue is incompetently designed crossovers. It will be work, but I could design new crossovers for you if you want. If I do, are you able to build them, or would I have to build them and ship them?

I only use high quality inductors and caps in my crossovers, so there would be some expense, but I can't tell you the figure until I would do a design and price the components.

After reviewing all this I am certain your speakers can be greatly improved by a crossover redesign. You would have to install them of course.

 

[AussieNewbie]

Are you just totally against getting better speakers? You are really searching for fixes that will not really work. As suggested above get new speakers and you will be pleased in the long run.

March audio near perth also sells world quality speakers that have rave reviews. And as you mentioned Kef as well. Sometimes it is hard to admit we have purchased bad speakers—they usually show up as tiring to listen to after awhile.

I got convinced by the sale’s pitch (the guy in 2012 said he uses components used in 50K Wilson speakers etc etc). And, it seems the technology has moved on. So, yes, I am reluctant to discard my most expensive (it cost me fair bit back then) tower speakers. In any case, the trials used in perfect shop conditions don’t always help in your living room. I am sure my wife won’t approve of me buying new towers till I sell the old ones at a decent price. Am not even sure if a cross-over at 200 between LF and mid-range is a typo or the truth. Sounds odd. I really need to do a proper re-assessment of how they sound as stereo with a known music piece (tester pieces don’t work for me if I don’t know the song very well). It could be cheaper to get a new cross-over built and fitted as suggested by TLS guy. But I am 57 and no good with a screw driver in my hands. By the time I get a new cross over made and fitted, I could be better off buying a new tower speaker and and selling the towers + Centre (hopefully at a very decent price)

 

[TLS Guy]

I got convinced by the sale’s pitch (the guy in 2012 said he uses components used in 50K Wilson speakers etc etc). And, it seems the technology has moved on. So, yes, I am reluctant to discard my most expensive (it cost me fair bit back then) tower speakers. In any case, the trials used in perfect shop conditions don’t always help in your living room. I am sure my wife won’t approve of me buying new towers till I sell the old ones at a decent price. Am not even sure if a cross-over at 200 between LF and mid-range is a typo or the truth. Sounds odd. I really need to do a proper re-assessment of how they sound as stereo with a known music piece (tester pieces don’t work for me if I don’t know the song very well). It could be cheaper to get a new cross-over built and fitted as suggested by TLS guy. But I am 57 and no good with a screw driver in my hands. By the time I get a new cross over made and fitted, I could be better off buying a new tower speaker and and selling the towers + Centre (hopefully at a very decent price)

Yes, replacing the crossover will be a lot cheaper than replacing the speakers. If you can't even use a screwdriver, then modding the speakers is not for you. I just can't believe how many useless people we have around these days.

I was seven, when a new Rotoscythe lawn mower was delivered to our house. It had a Villiers single cylinder two cycle engine. My father told me that I would mow the lawn, and it was large. Further that it I would maintain and repair it, and that it was never to see the inside of a repair shop. It didn't and that was the first engine I ever rebuilt. I used it until the front wheels fell off due to fatigue of the cast chassis. That was an un-remedial situation and the end of the line. My father was right. He did not want us kids growing up useless and none of us did.

 

[AussieNewbie]

You are looking for solutions that are not going to help improve your sound.

There is good and very reliable data on all the drivers in your speakers. I am certain that your issue is incompetently designed crossovers. It will be work, but I could design new crossovers for you if you want. If I do, are you able to build them, or would I have to build them and ship them?

I only use high quality inductors and caps in my crossovers, so there would be some expense, but I can't tell you the figure until I would do a design and price the components.

After reviewing all this I am certain your speakers can be greatly improved by a crossover redesign. You would have to install them of course.

Are you in Australia or in US? How easy or difficult is it to replace old X-over to a newly created cross over. I am (very) sure, I am not bothered by the Peerless Nomex 2 X 210 mm woofers being of very ordinary quality. And as I said, I am older and Not good with electronics (so, I will have to get someone to come over at my house even if buy an X-over from you). I probably do have to spend some money on a higher sensitivity “Centre”. That is equally important aspect because I don’t want to constantly change the volume whilst watching a movie. A have a Polk AXi6 centre channel lying around. Apologies in advance for the fact that I am trying to reach for the stars whilst on a budget by now. In fact, I bought an AMC 150 watts per channel discrete toroidal 3 channel amp. But, I can’t even put it in the set up successfully. (Bought for AUD 999 from Rio sound Australia) - I thought it should take some pressure off the remaining 8 channels driven by DRX8.4 (150 watts / 8 ohms if two channel driven)

 

[AussieNewbie]

Sorry, it’s a CSi A6. Rated sensitivity 90 (I should use it as this is better than the 86 to 87 sensitivity of matching centre speaker from NZ) Colour matching.

 

[AussieNewbie]

Yes, replacing the crossover will be a lot cheaper than replacing the speakers. If you can't even use a screwdriver, then modding the speakers is not for you. I just can't believe how many useless people we have around these days.

I was seven, when a new Rotoscythe lawn mower was delivered to our house. It had a Villiers single cylinder two cycle engine. My father told me that I would mow the lawn, and it was large. Further that it I would maintain and repair it, and that it was never to see the inside of a repair shop. It didn't and that was the first engine I ever rebuilt. I used it until the front wheels fell off due to fatigue of the cast chassis. That was an un-remedial situation and the end of the line. My father was right. He did not want us kids growing up useless and none of us did.

Well, I was exxagerating. I grew up in India. The first time, I held a screw driver in my hands was 2 years after I moved to Australia - by 32 - 33 years of age. My 18 year old son is very good with electronics (but hard to get to do some work for me). I can use a screwdriver, physical and battery operated all right! My son built a computer from scratch at the age of 13, he can operate all three OS at the same time, always had 30 tabs open at any time, and still manages to have a GPA above 6.5- first year @ Uni. Each to his / her own He has a soldering gun, Voltage meter etc etc etc .

 

[AussieNewbie]

Yes, replacing the crossover will be a lot cheaper than replacing the speakers. If you can't even use a screwdriver, then modding the speakers is not for you. I just can't believe how many useless people we have around these days.

I was seven, when a new Rotoscythe lawn mower was delivered to our house. It had a Villiers single cylinder two cycle engine. My father told me that I would mow the lawn, and it was large. Further that it I would maintain and repair it, and that it was never to see the inside of a repair shop. It didn't and that was the first engine I ever rebuilt. I used it until the front wheels fell off due to fatigue of the cast chassis. That was an un-remedial situation and the end of the line. My father was right. He did not want us kids growing up useless and none of us did.

BTW, we are going to have a lot more useless people in coming days. The kids these days are all on computer / electronic games. Can’t use simple tools and if questioned - the standard answer is “they want to become “game designers” or they wish to work as beta testers for new games!!!

 

[AussieNewbie]

DAYTON AUDIO 3 WAY SPEAKER CROSSOVER

The 3-way, 2nd-order (12 dB/octave) crossover from Dayton Audio was designed with a 3 octave spread between crossover points. Metallised polyester film capacitors are used in the critical midrange and tweeter signal paths. 18 gauge tweeter and midrange inductors, and 20 gauge woofer inductors...

www.wagneronline.com.au

I found that there are quality parts, kits, or fully assembled cross-overs are available in Australia itself. Just one example above. So, what would be recommended (Au available/ amazon prime available) parts and (suggested) X-over points - given that the characteristics of the drivers in my speakers are well documented?

I don’t understand the pros and cons of a 12 dB slope and selection of the two X-over points for my set of drivers (Eg combo of 500Hz+ 5000Hz, or 375Hz +3000Hz). It’s all Greek and Latin for me even if I understand the basic terms. A spread of 3 dB across the x-over points etc etc. I am pretty confident that my son can manage assembling a brand new X-Over. He has created drones, and lots of electronic-things using spare parts. (And, he had a Uni selection rank of 99.95 in grade-12 - the highest possible). We would be very afraid to open the rather slick tower speakers though. I shall search for an AV afficiando online (Airtasker / Hi pages etc) to be available if we get lost ourselves.

 

[TLS Guy]

DAYTON AUDIO 3 WAY SPEAKER CROSSOVER

The 3-way, 2nd-order (12 dB/octave) crossover from Dayton Audio was designed with a 3 octave spread between crossover points. Metallised polyester film capacitors are used in the critical midrange and tweeter signal paths. 18 gauge tweeter and midrange inductors, and 20 gauge woofer inductors...

www.wagneronline.com.au

I found that there are quality parts, kits, or fully assembled cross-overs are available in Australia itself. Just one example above. So, what would be recommended (Au available/ amazon prime available) parts and (suggested) X-over points - given that the characteristics of the drivers in my speakers are well documented?

I don’t understand the pros and cons of a 12 dB slope and selection of the two X-over points for my set of drivers (Eg combo of 500Hz+ 5000Hz, or 375Hz +3000Hz). It’s all Greek and Latin for me even if I understand the basic terms. A spread of 3 dB across the x-over points etc etc. I am pretty confident that my son can manage assembling a brand new X-Over. He has created drones, and lots of electronic-things using spare parts. (And, he had a Uni selection rank of 99.95 in grade-12 - the highest possible). We would be very afraid to open the rather slick tower speakers though. I shall search for an AV afficiando online (Airtasker / Hi pages etc) to be available if we get lost ourselves.

You can not use off the shelf crossovers ever. That is hopeless and will always give bad results. You have to design EVERY crossover to the Thiele/Small parameters of all the drivers and their acoustic responses.
The order of your crossovers is determined by the order of the roll off of the driver on both the high and lower end of their responses. It is quite an arduous task, but made much easier and quicker with design software.

if your son can follow a circuit diagram and can solder well, then he could build crossovers to my design. Otherwise I would have to design and build them and he could install them.

Lastly a beginner would never start by designing and building a three way crossover.

 

[AussieNewbie]

Hi to all the true experts out there. I managed to find this review of my speakers (probably article originally written in 2011 when the mid range driver was different and the loudspeaker company was owned by Mr Chris Ball. At that time the X-overs were at 250 Hz and 3000 Hz. I strongly suspect that my speakers should have those numbers.

http://totallywired.co.nz/image-revelation.html

TLS guy - I can’t imagine a beginner designing a cross-over - I would be scared to open a screw of those sleek cabinets. Believe me, my tower speakers look exceptionally good with real Jarrah timber veneer (may end up sounding equally well after some help from an AV guy).

But, I am going to recalibrate with the help of a professional AV guy after addining some sound absorption + DLBC as suggested by Peng. Thank you for all the inputs by the experts. It clarified some of my concepts. The clarity of centre speaker remains one other issue for a later date. Positioning, and Dirac calibration may solve that issue - at least for the time being. Thanks again.

The previous iteration of their speakers were power hungry according to this 2009 thread: https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/272520-image-speakers/

 

[mono-bloc]

Currently Aussie dollar is low. Plus postage will be high. Exchange rates at he moment are horrendous between the US and OZ Something like 64 cents, So you can just about double the listed US price. I found this Aussie brand (Elektra) if someone could have a look - I haven't heard the Elektra name for a number of years Arthur does not have a web address, and only sell through High-End outlets As the build quality is second to none, Len Wallis Audio in Sydney, Class A in Melbourne and as you stated West Coast Audio in Perth.

 

[PENG]

Hi to all the true experts out there. I managed to find this review of my speakers (probably article originally written in 2011 when the mid range driver was different and the loudspeaker company was owned by Mr Chris Ball. At that time the X-overs were at 250 Hz and 3000 Hz. I strongly suspect that my speakers should have those numbers.

http://totallywired.co.nz/image-revelation.html

TLS guy - I can’t imagine a beginner designing a cross-over - I would be scared to open a screw of those sleek cabinets. Believe me, my tower speakers look exceptionally good with real Jarrah timber veneer (may end up sounding equally well after some help from an AV guy).

But, I am going to recalibrate with the help of a professional AV guy after addining some sound absorption + DLBC as suggested by Peng. Thank you for all the inputs by the experts. It clarified some of my concepts. The clarity of centre speaker remains one other issue for a later date. Positioning, and Dirac calibration may solve that issue - at least for the time being. Thanks again.

The previous iteration of their speakers were power hungry according to this 2009 thread: https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/272520-image-speakers/

I don't think your speakers are really the issue. Sound quality is very subjective so I tend to rely on measurements a lot more than people's perceptions.

In my opinion, your first step is to invest in a Umik-1 mic and learn how to use REW that is freeware.

Acoustic Measurement Tools: UMIK-1
REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software

If we can see some measurements, we can tell a lot more about what the issue is, and what might be the solutions.

Without taking measurements, if I were to take an educated guess, one of you best bet is to purchase the Denon AVR-X3800H, that is currently on sale in North America so it may be too in Australia, and then purchase the Dirac Live licenses. Then you can customize the target curve to suit your taste, in terms of "mellowness".

Crossover design is not rocket science, but it is a lot more than the average hobbyist to tackle, especially when trying to retrofit it to speakers like yours. So, I would suggest you the route of Dirac Live, another low cost AVR that you can consider is the Onkyo RZ30, that has two discrete subouts, but it can only do 9 channels of processing, the Denon can do 13.

 

[AussieNewbie]

I don't think your speakers are really the issue. Sound quality is very subjective so I tend to rely on measurements a lot more than people's perceptions.

In my opinion, your first step is to invest in a Umik-1 mic and learn how to use REW that is freeware.

Acoustic Measurement Tools: UMIK-1
REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software

If we can see some measurements, we can tell a lot more about what the issue is, and what might be the solutions.

Without taking measurements, if I were to take an educated guess, one of you best bet is to purchase the Denon AVR-X3800H, that is currently on sale in North America so it may be too in Australia, and then purchase the Dirac Live licenses. Then you can customize the target curve to suit your taste, in terms of "mellowness".

Crossover design is not rocket science, but it is a lot more than the average hobbyist to tackle, especially when trying to retrofit it to speakers like yours. So, I would suggest you the route of Dirac Live, another low cost AVR that you can consider is the Onkyo RZ30, that has two discrete subouts, but it can only do 9 channels of processing, the Denon can do 13.

Thanks Peng. My DRX came with a free Dirac Live licence and its own microphone. I also purchased a Dirac Bass Management licence as per your suggestion. And a better (sincere) AV guy came today to give me a quote for fitting two extra (rear) Amos speakers + properly calibrate the system and positioning etc. Seems more genuine guy who has a great “ear”. I will get him to use the mic + Dirac BMS to get the best possible sound. Regards

 

[PENG]

Thanks Peng. My DRX came with a free Dirac Live licence and its own microphone. I also purchased a Dirac Bass Management licence as per your suggestion. And a better (sincere) AV guy came today to give me a quote for fitting two extra (rear) Amos speakers + properly calibrate the system and positioning etc. Seems more genuine guy who has a great “ear”. I will get him to use the mic + Dirac BMS to get the best possible sound. Regards

Then you are all set, the DRX you've got is an excellent one based on specs and related measurements. All those talks about warm, cold, punch, layback, soundstage narrow wide etc., are mostly Placebo, expectations based on hearsy, marketing talks and how the speakers influenced by the room acoustics, Dirac Live can fix a lot of those things but you may have to tweak the target curve to your taste, as Dirac Live, like Audyssey, will try to aim for neutrality, except it may add some bass tilt towards the lowest end, mainly from below around 200 Hz down to about 20 Hz.

 

[Golfx]

Hi to all the true experts out there. I managed to find this review of my speakers (probably article originally written in 2011 when the mid range driver was different and the loudspeaker company was owned by Mr Chris Ball. At that time the X-overs were at 250 Hz and 3000 Hz. I strongly suspect that my speakers should have those numbers.

http://totallywired.co.nz/image-revelation.html

TLS guy - I can’t imagine a beginner designing a cross-over - I would be scared to open a screw of those sleek cabinets. Believe me, my tower speakers look exceptionally good with real Jarrah timber veneer (may end up sounding equally well after some help from an AV guy).

But, I am going to recalibrate with the help of a professional AV guy after addining some sound absorption + DLBC as suggested by Peng. Thank you for all the inputs by the experts. It clarified some of my concepts. The clarity of centre speaker remains one other issue for a later date. Positioning, and Dirac calibration may solve that issue - at least for the time being. Thanks again.

The previous iteration of their speakers were power hungry according to this 2009 thread: https://www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/272520-image-speakers/

Just in cast you are still looking these are made in your home country:

Speakers - March Audio

Our design objective was to produce a speaker that is moderate in size yet possessed exceptionally deep and warm bass, with sweet crystal clear high frequencies and very low distortion. Combined with beautiful solid wood cabinets these speakers will bring you closer to the music.

marchaudio.com

Have rave reviews stateside too

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks Peng. My DRX came with a free Dirac Live licence and its own microphone. I also purchased a Dirac Bass Management licence as per your suggestion. And a better (sincere) AV guy came today to give me a quote for fitting two extra (rear) Amos speakers + properly calibrate the system and positioning etc. Seems more genuine guy who has a great “ear”. I will get him to use the mic + Dirac BMS to get the best possible sound. Regards

See what he can do. The thing that I can not fathom is how those speakers sound in the least bit harsh. I know those Morel bass mids and that tweeter well. The history of Dynaudio and Morel is interesting.

Dynaudio was founded in 1976 by Ejvind Skaaning together with Gerhard Richter. Prior to this, or during the starting phase, in 1975 Skaaning and Richter joined with Meir Mordechai and founded RMS (Richter, Mordechai and Skaaning). Manufacturing facilities were located in Israel. Mordechai held 50% of RMS, while the other held the other 50%. RMS developed and manufactured raw drivers. After two years, Morel bought out Richter and Skaaning's shares which dissolved this partnership. Mordechai continued to run Morel.

Shortly after, Richter and Skaaning established Dynaudio. (Source: Nir Paz of Morel, Israel).

The Morel drivers are very similar to the Dynaudio drivers and especially to those produced by Dynaudio prior to the selling of Dynaudio.

I used Dynaudio drivers extensively in the days when Dynaudio raw drivers where available. I have used Morel drives including the ones in your speakers. Dynaudio/Morel drivers are about the easiest drivers to work with on the planet, and in general the optimal crossover is simple, thanks to the predictable and smooth roll offs of the drivers and absence of break up mode peaks. They also have very high power handling capabilities.

I used those Morel drivers in our great room in wall system.

So it is beyond me the level of incompetence required after selecting those Morel drivers and make a harsh speakers. That is beyond my comprehension.

The bottom line is that if those speakers still don't please you I am certain I can design crossovers for those drivers that will.

 

[oniiz86]

Currently Aussie dollar is low. Plus postage will be high. Exchange rates at he moment are horrendous between the US and OZ Something like 64 cents, So you can just about double the listed US price. I found this Aussie brand (Elektra) if someone could have a look - I haven't heard the Elektra name for a number of years Arthur does not have a web address, and only sell through High-End outlets As the build quality is second to none, Len Wallis Audio in Sydney, Class A in Melbourne and as you stated West Coast Audio in Perth.

@mono-bloc I don't believe Len Wallis Audio in Sydney & Class A Audio in Melbourne offer Arthur's Elektra amp offerings as they are not listed on their websites, perhaps you meant Sydney Hi-Fi Castle Hill/Mona Vale stores https://www.sydneyhificastlehill.com.au/brand/elektra-audio/ & https://sydneyhifimonavale.com.au/pages/search-results-page?q=Elektra & Mcleans in Sydney https://www.mcleans.info/collections/elektra & Carlton Audio Visual https://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/catalogsearch/result/?q=Elektra & Frankston Hifi https://www.frankstonhifi.com.au/search/Elektra/ stores in Melbourne.

 

[AussieNewbie]

See what he can do. The thing that I can not fathom is how those speakers sound in the least bit harsh. I know those Morel bass mids and that tweeter well. The history of Dynaudio and Morel is interesting.

Dynaudio was founded in 1976 by Ejvind Skaaning together with Gerhard Richter. Prior to this, or during the starting phase, in 1975 Skaaning and Richter joined with Meir Mordechai and founded RMS (Richter, Mordechai and Skaaning). Manufacturing facilities were located in Israel. Mordechai held 50% of RMS, while the other held the other 50%. RMS developed and manufactured raw drivers. After two years, Morel bought out Richter and Skaaning's shares which dissolved this partnership. Mordechai continued to run Morel.

Shortly after, Richter and Skaaning established Dynaudio. (Source: Nir Paz of Morel, Israel).

The Morel drivers are very similar to the Dynaudio drivers and especially to those produced by Dynaudio prior to the selling of Dynaudio.

I used Dynaudio drivers extensively in the days when Dynaudio raw drivers where available. I have used Morel drives including the ones in your speakers. Dynaudio/Morel drivers are about the easiest drivers to work with on the planet, and in general the optimal crossover is simple, thanks to the predictable and smooth roll offs of the drivers and absence of break up mode peaks. They also have very high power handling capabilities.

I used those Morel drivers in our great room in wall system.

So it is beyond me the level of incompetence required after selecting those Morel drivers and make a harsh speakers. That is beyond my comprehension.

The bottom line is that if those speakers still don't please you I am certain I can design crossovers for those drivers that will.

Sorry TLS Guy. It’s my mistake, I chose a wrong word. The speakers do not sound harsh at all - but they did sound bright in my earlier house (lots of big windows with a 4 mm thin glass panes and no carpets. I raised the question of mellow sound only because I was surprised by a couple of factors in a shop in NZ in December 23. Plus, the clarity / separation (I am too much of a newbie to comment on “headroom”) of the Q350 pair - standing 90 cm away from the wall (in another room) was also better.

Now that I carefully listened to the speakers in stereo mode (rather than all channel stereo) in this new house with dedicated media room, they are quite okay. They do need high volumes (IN absolute terms my AVR tells me THX ref level reached only when the volume hits 81.5!!! (That is loud!!). I have been medically sick for a year - so I have been cranky, and perhaps, unreasonable in my expectations I suppose.. The speakers sound phenomenally well for music if paired with REL TX9 (using Neutrik high level).

But the original guy who was supposed to do calibration for me simply ran away. I strongly believe that the cross over between mid to woofers must have been 250 Hz when I purchased it from Cris Ball in 2012. Many thanks for all the inputs. I shall post only when I get a professional guys does some twicking - I owe you guys an update, at the very least.