Will a 3-channel separate Amp mellow big two tower speakers?

[AussieNewbie]

Hi, I wonder how to achieve better sound from my old but expensive tower and centre speakers. I suspect they need higher amperage and power to sound mellow. 14 gauge wires.

I have two big tower speakers (each consists of Morel supreme 28 mm twitters + 1 Morel 160 mm carbon fibre/ Rohacell composite and two Nomex 210 mm woofers with crossovers at 200 and 2600 as per factory current website -I bought them in 2012 from NZ, I live in Brisbane). I used to run them with very old Denon 3312 and they sounded rather bright. An addition of REL TX9 with high-level Neutrik Speakon connection helped immensely. Now, I have moved to a newly built house with a dedicated media room with Integra DRX8.4. I have a 7.2.2 set up. I am trying to achieve a much better sound quality at moderate volumes. Cumulative wattage rating of all the drivers in tower speakers would be around 500 watts+.

What triggered this chain of thought was that two KEF Q350 bookshelf speakers sounded warmer and far more detailed / good separation with old AVR in another room.
Will addition of a 3 channel Emotiva amp XPA3 3-channel (on Black Friday sale) help the sound quality. My aims are: 1) I should be able to hear whispered dialogues in a movie clearly at mid low volumes Eg -3dB to -6dB to reference 2) The main 3 speakers to sound as warm and as clear as possible. 3) Will I miss the trick of using neutrik high level connection to REL if I have to use the RCA pre-outs for the three channels?

The other details: 4.8 M X 4.5 M X 2.85 M ceiling, 120 inch screen, and Sony es5000 4K projector. One RELTx9 subwoofer and another canton 8.4 subwoofer (couldn’t afford two RELs). Not yet calibrated properly because the sound absorption panels have not been hung on walls yet. I will eventually add two rear ATMOS ceiling speakers. I clipped the whole AVR on one occasion when went up to a very high volume of 81.5 (in absolute terms) - all channel stereo.

 

[Tankini]

Maybe the amp in between the left or right, the middle amp.
May get some chocolatey smooth mid-range.
Your Room, Your placement of Your speaker's will have a better chance of (mellowing)

 

[dolynick]

A change in amplifier isn't likely to result in any major change to the tonality of the speakers unless one was really not working properly or up to a reasonable spec. Any changes are likely to be fairly subtle.

For 3) I don't see why you have to lose the REL high-level connection. Just move the high-level out connection to the new amplifier. It just pulls the signal out from the mains out lines and should migrate without much issue.

As for 2) and changing the tonality of the speakers... That's largely just a function of the speaker design. Your best bet for taming the high frequencies (since you say they're too bright) might be some room treatment (dampening some reflection points) and playing with toe-in. Most tweeters have narrower range of dispersion than other drivers so shifting the angle might knock down the output at the listening position fairly effectively.

Or you could just apply a little EQ to the signal to knock down the highs a touch. An AVR will do usually this globally to all channels with a tone control and RoomEQ typically doesn't touch the highs (although some will let you if you opt to). Your best bet might be something like a miniDSP box in line with the line out for the mains to the amp (if you go separate) or one of the models that works over HDMI and intercepting the signal into the AVR.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi, I wonder how to achieve better sound from my old but expensive tower and centre speakers. I suspect they need higher amperage and power to sound mellow. 14 gauge wires.

I have two big tower speakers (each consists of Morel supreme 28 mm twitters + 1 Morel 160 mm carbon fibre/ Rohacell composite and two Nomex 210 mm woofers with crossovers at 200 and 2600 as per factory current website -I bought them in 2012 from NZ, I live in Brisbane). I used to run them with very old Denon 3312 and they sounded rather bright. An addition of REL TX9 with high-level Neutrik Speakon connection helped immensely. Now, I have moved to a newly built house with a dedicated media room with Integra DRX8.4. I have a 7.2.2 set up. I am trying to achieve a much better sound quality at moderate volumes. Cumulative wattage rating of all the drivers in tower speakers would be around 500 watts+.

What triggered this chain of thought was that two KEF Q350 bookshelf speakers sounded warmer and far more detailed / good separation with old AVR in another room.
Will addition of a 3 channel Emotiva amp XPA3 3-channel (on Black Friday sale) help the sound quality. My aims are: 1) I should be able to hear whispered dialogues in a movie clearly at mid low volumes Eg -3dB to -6dB to reference 2) The main 3 speakers to sound as warm and as clear as possible. 3) Will I miss the trick of using neutrik high level connection to REL if I have to use the RCA pre-outs for the three channels?

The other details: 4.8 M X 4.5 M X 2.85 M ceiling, 120 inch screen, and Sony es5000 4K projector. One RELTx9 subwoofer and another canton 8.4 subwoofer (couldn’t afford two RELs). Not yet calibrated properly because the sound absorption panels have not been hung on walls yet. I will eventually add two rear ATMOS ceiling speakers. I clipped the whole AVR on one occasion when went up to a very high volume of 81.5 (in absolute terms) - all channel stereo.

As usual the problem you are having is going to be the speakers and not the amps. Who made and designed those speakers? 200 Hz for a passive crossover is very low and invites serious problems. I suspect the mid is actually a bass/mid and not a proper midrange driver. Incidentally Morel make and excellent mid that can be crossed at 400 Hz and 4KHz. The design with two tweeters is usually a bad plan. So I suspect speakers problems in spades. The fact the KEF sounds better is what I would expect. You will not solve your problems with an amp change, but a speaker change.

 

[everettT]

As usual the problem you are having is going to be the speakers and not the amps. Who made and designed those speakers? 200 Hz for a passive crossover is very low and invites serious problems. I suspect the mid is actually a bass/mid and not a proper midrange driver. Incidentally Morel make and excellent mid that can be crossed at 400 Hz and 4KHz. The design with two tweeters is usually a bad plan. So I suspect speakers problems in spades. The fact the KEF sounds better is what I would expect. You will not solve your problems with an amp change, but a speaker change.

Would a crossover redesign be an option for him? IIRC this is factory design.

 

[TLS Guy]

Would a crossover redesign be an option for him? IIRC this is factory design.

May be if there is really good data on the drivers. Two tweeters though is not an encouraging sign. There is good data on the Morel drivers. I have no idea who made the Nomex woofers. There are no Nomex or 210 mm drivers listed on the Morel site. I know the Morel line pretty well and I have never come across a driver of that description from Morel. From his description his speakers are clearly a result of design malpractice.

 

[AussieNewbie]

As usual the problem you are having is going to be the speakers and not the amps. Who made and designed those speakers? 200 Hz for a passive crossover is very low and invites serious problems. I suspect the mid is actually a bass/mid and not a proper midrange driver. Incidentally Morel make and excellent mid that can be crossed at 400 Hz and 4KHz. The design with two tweeters is usually a bad plan. So I suspect speakers problems in spades. The fact the KEF sounds better is what I would expect. You will not solve your problems with an amp change, but a speaker change.

Sorry to have confused you guys. Well there is only one twitter (I copy pasted from their website as it stands now) The make is Imageloudspeakears.nz. I purchased them when it was owned by a kiwi block. Now, it is a Chinese owned company and the current specs may be different. Though I had looked upo the website in 2012 and the driver company names and dimensions are same. I also thought a cross over at 200 is odd, isn’t that the subwoofer range? Model name is “Revelation2” link here: https://imageloudspeakers.nz/series-image/speaker-image-revelation2/. It should clarify the speaker set up.

 

[AussieNewbie]

Sorry, too many typos above.

 

[AussieNewbie]

They are currently advertised for NZ7500 per pair!! I got them in Jarah along with a centre speaker and They don’t sound that bad but definitely sounded bright (Both with Old denon and possibly even with the new DRX8.4) They are good looking speakers too. Last year’s addition of RELTX9 (Neutrik) made a huge difference. I am pretty sure the Morel drivers were different then. The Nomex X 2 were made by peerless. I vaguely remember them to be “long throw” whatever that means. Last December I went to a shop in Tauranga in NZ, where I heard the Monitor Audio 100 silver and even they sounded warmer. The shop-owner heard about my set up. He knew the original Kiwi owner of that company had retired and he suggested that my speakers must be sounding bright due to lack of amperage. (Until that moment, it did not strike me in what way my speakers were different, I immediately agreed that my speakers sounded “Bright”.

 

[AussieNewbie]

Looks like I should take the speakers to a speaker repair guy in Brisbane - any suggestions?

 

[AussieNewbie]

A change in amplifier isn't likely to result in any major change to the tonality of the speakers unless one was really not working properly or up to a reasonable spec. Any changes are likely to be fairly subtle.

For 3) I don't see why you have to lose the REL high-level connection. Just move the high-level out connection to the new amplifier. It just pulls the signal out from the mains out lines and should migrate without much issue.

As for 2) and changing the tonality of the speakers... That's largely just a function of the speaker design. Your best bet for taming the high frequencies (since you say they're too bright) might be some room treatment (dampening some reflection points) and playing with toe-in. Most tweeters have narrower range of dispersion than other drivers so shifting the angle might knock down the output at the listening position fairly effectively.

Or you could just apply a little EQ to the signal to knock down the highs a touch. An AVR will do usually this globally to all channels with a tone control and RoomEQ typically doesn't touch the highs (although some will let you if you opt to). Your best bet might be something like a miniDSP box in line with the line out for the mains to the amp (if you go separate) or one of the models that works over HDMI and intercepting the signal into the AVR.

Well, I have placed the speakers a little bit 30 cm out from the wall behind. A. Bit of toe-in. If I use the main AVR outputs for all the speakers, I can connect the REL by both methods - a LFE0.1 out as well as additional three wires of the neutrik speakon directly attached to AVR output. If, I buy a separate 3 channel amp, I would have to use the RCA pre-outs to the Emotiva amp? How can I use a power high level output of AVR to the input of the three channel amp? Wouldn’t it be dangerous?

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, I have placed the speakers a little bit 30 cm out from the wall behind. A. Bit of toe-in. If I use the main AVR outputs for all the speakers, I can connect the REL by both methods - a LFE0.1 out as well as additional three wires of the neutrik speakon directly attached to AVR output. If, I buy a separate 3 channel amp, I would have to use the RCA pre-outs to the Emotiva amp? How can I use a power high level output of AVR to the input of the three channel amp? Wouldn’t it be dangerous?

OK I have found the drivers.

The woofers are from a cheap budget line from Peerless. They are available in the US for $50.00 each. They are actually specked as mid woofers. They have an FS of 40Hz. the lowest they will go is somewhat above Fs, in this case ported the F3 is 60 Hz. So they have no deep bass, and are specked by Peerless as mid/woofers. Looking at the Peerless spec. sheet those drivers suffer cone break up starting at 1KHz. So their bandwidth is 60 Hz to 1KHz.
So essentially you have two cheap bass drivers, honestly specked and marketed by Peerless crossed to what is another mid woofer and not a dedicated mid driver, and a Tweeter. The Morel units are quality drivers.

So we have a couple of bass mids with a bandwidth of 60 Hz to 200 Hz, crossed to a mid woofer 200 Hz to 2.5KHz.

That is just not a sensible design and will not sound good whatever you drive them with. That design is a real amateur hour job.

If you want better sound then you need to go speaker shopping.

 

[PENG]

They are currently advertised for NZ7500 per pair!! I got them in Jarah along with a centre speaker and They don’t sound that bad but definitely sounded bright (Both with Old denon and possibly even with the new DRX8.4) They are good looking speakers too. Last year’s addition of RELTX9 (Neutrik) made a huge difference. I am pretty sure the Morel drivers were different then. The Nomex X 2 were made by peerless. I vaguely remember them to be “long throw” whatever that means. Last December I went to a shop in Tauranga in NZ, where I heard the Monitor Audio 100 silver and even they sounded warmer. The shop-owner heard about my set up. He knew the original Kiwi owner of that company had retired and he suggested that my speakers must be sounding bright due to lack of amperage. (Until that moment, it did not strike me in what way my speakers were different, I immediately agreed that my speakers sounded “Bright”.

Have you tried the DRX804 yet? It is a very current capable unit, by the look of its specs, though being still a receiver, it is not the best for truly 4 ohm nominal speakers if you listen at loud level and sitting from say, further than a few meters.

I wouldn't recommend the Emotiva amp if you really want to eliminate the doubt that may be a more capable amp can do those towers justice. Some better choice would be the Hypex or Purifi based class D amps such as the following:

Apollon Hypex NCOREx NCx500 Multichannel Amplifier (3-5 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

P422 Stereo Power Amplifier - March Audio

AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S500NC Power Amplifier Class D Stereo NCore NC500MP 2x500W 4 Ohm - Audiophonics

Any of those amps would be a better match to your flagship level AVR that has very low distortions+noise.

If it was my money though, I would purchase the Dirac Live DLBC license, now that it is on Black Friday sale (20%?). In my experience, the improved sound quality, especially in the bass range, is easy to hear whereas adding those external amps including the very high price ones are not always audible, basically not audible if one listen with their ears without the help of their eyes.

 

[dolynick]

Well, I have placed the speakers a little bit 30 cm out from the wall behind. A. Bit of toe-in. If I use the main AVR outputs for all the speakers, I can connect the REL by both methods - a LFE0.1 out as well as additional three wires of the neutrik speakon directly attached to AVR output. If, I buy a separate 3 channel amp, I would have to use the RCA pre-outs to the Emotiva amp? How can I use a power high level output of AVR to the input of the three channel amp? Wouldn’t it be dangerous?

You would use the LFE out from the AVR to the T9x for the surround bass routing and you wouldn't connect the high-level neutrik to the AVR at all. The neutrik would move to the speaker outputs used for the mains from the new Emotiva amp. If you are going to use the LFE and the high level inputs, you should make sure that your AVR is set not to bass manage the mains (IE, set them to no crossover or "large" in a lot of AVR setup terms).

 

[AussieNewbie]

Thank you guys for clarifying. I have Newbie in my name for good reasons. Looks like Dirac DLBC should be the first intervention. I shall try a few permutations and post the results here, with picture. Can’t really afford to spend money on new Towers (and existing towers “look” rather impressive).

Emotiva (with 20% off), are available for AUD-2066 for now. I am desperate to find the answers though. I do have some al cheapo sound absorpotion panels that I can stick with the help of blue Tac initially. Intermittently, I do listen to music (on Tidal) at fairly high volumes. I sit about 3.6 metres (The British spellings here!) from the fronts of the main towers. I haven’t checked all the links sent by PENG yet. I am slow to act and I have a slow typing speed.

 

[dolynick]

Well, I have placed the speakers a little bit 30 cm out from the wall behind. A. Bit of toe-in. If I use the main AVR outputs for all the speakers, I can connect the REL by both methods - a LFE0.1 out as well as additional three wires of the neutrik speakon directly attached to AVR output. If, I buy a separate 3 channel amp, I would have to use the RCA pre-outs to the Emotiva amp? How can I use a power high level output of AVR to the input of the three channel amp? Wouldn’t it be dangerous?

With toe-in, the general rule is that the more directly the tweeter is pointed at you, the brighter it might be. You might want to try pointing the speakers straight ahead into the room instead of any toe-in at all.

 

[AussieNewbie]

With toe-in, the general rule is that the more directly the tweeter is pointed at you, the brighter it might be. You might want to try pointing the speakers straight ahead into the room instead of any toe-in at all.

I thought of it and didn’t try it out. I think I should. I have attached a photo of one tower speaker and the associated (two-way) centre speaker. I purchased AUD 49 per paid 41 cm X 41 cm X 5 cm sound absorber hollow panels from Ikea, stuffed them with acoustic rated house-wall batts. You can see one example of two such Ikea panels joined together with a tape on the table. I also tried to save money by buying some extremely cheap bass traps from “elite electronics“ au. Never had the guts to put them up. The DRX8.4 is attached, but I need to crank up the volume quite a bit to hear all the separations in music. I need to use my DRX remote constantly to increase the volume during dialogue only and decrease it immediately as soon as there are other sounds in a Movie (that’s why I am talking about mellow sounds - that shouldn’t hurt ears even at high volumes) . I always wonder, how come the things are so perfect in a movie Theater? You can hear the whispered dialogues and the loud sounds don’t hurt your ears there. I also was impressed by the live music played at QPAC (along with Saturday night fever movie - a combination of live songs + on screen movie, the way you hear the music there is out of this world!!). I am trying to achieve something better whilst on a tight budget. I will eventually put the sound absorbers on the wall - if not for my medical illness preventing lots of action at my end.

 

[AussieNewbie]

 

[AussieNewbie]

The photo of two bass traps, one IKEA sound absorber panel with fibre wool stuffed inside and one regular sound absorber panel from an online company. This forum has really great helpers, and I am grateful. I tried to create a bass trap by joining two ikea panels. The other option was to add two Ikea panels plus leave a 2 cm space at the back (using a PVC wire conduit at the back) I don’t even have a proper glue for that yet. I shall but 20 lineal metres of Autex Vertiface in dark colour to apply to the back of the doors, and to cover all variegated sound panels in the same colour scheme.

Link for Autex au here: https://www.autexacoustics.com.au/products/vertiface - it’s an acoustic fabric 1.3 metres wide and 3 to 4 mm thick polyester. Requires a specific glue. The original height of the rom was 3 metres, I dropped it by 15 cm to hang block-out curtains

 

[AussieNewbie]

Have you tried the DRX804 yet? It is a very current capable unit, by the look of its specs, though being still a receiver, it is not the best for truly 4 ohm nominal speakers if you listen at loud level and sitting from say, further than a few meters.

I wouldn't recommend the Emotiva amp if you really want to eliminate the doubt that may be a more capable amp can do those towers justice. Some better choice would be the Hypex or Purifi based class D amps such as the following:

Apollon Hypex NCOREx NCx500 Multichannel Amplifier (3-5 Channel) | Apollon Audio Hypex Purifi Premium Amplifiers

P422 Stereo Power Amplifier - March Audio

AUDIOPHONICS HPA-S500NC Power Amplifier Class D Stereo NCore NC500MP 2x500W 4 Ohm - Audiophonics

Any of those amps would be a better match to your flagship level AVR that has very low distortions+noise.

If it was my money though, I would purchase the Dirac Live DLBC license, now that it is on Black Friday sale (20%?). In my experience, the improved sound quality, especially in the bass range, is easy to hear whereas adding those external amps including the very high price ones are not always audible, basically not audible if one listen with their ears without the help of their eyes.

All those are European or American brands - currently Aussie dollar is low. Plus postage will be high. I found this Aussie brand (Elektra) if someone could have a look - on paper it looks extremely impressive three channel amp. Damping factor > 5000 freq response starts from 5 Hz (Blah blah?) The link is from a retailer: https://www.westcoasthifi.com.au/shop/2-channel-audio/power-amplifier/elektra-hd2-power-amplifier/. Obviously a costly purchase - only if needed after Dirac bass licence.