Why does Audyssey XT32 insist that subs be -10db even after setting gain?

[SwedishChef]

I've been working on my system and continue to improve some things and fall back in other areas, but am making progress overall. I'm a bit bewildered by this situation, though.

When I first set my sub gain at 12 o'clock and ran Audyssey (xt32) it panicked about the sub levels. "OMG, that's too loud! (~95db) Would you like to see a meter and adjust your gain?" So I used that feature and reduced the gain until I hit 75db, the icon turned green, and I moved on. I did this for both subs. The gain is not set as low as it can go, but it's pretty low. (Two Hsu ULS-15 MK2 in a ~23x19x8 room, about 3500 cubic feet.)

Despite this setting, when Audyssey completes, it has set each sub to roughly -10db (range I've seen: -9.5 to -12.0). I have run it multiple times, with 3 and 8 measurement points, and with subs in various locations. I am currently using 80hz crossovers for all channels, 120hz for LFE, and sending LFE+Main to the subs.

The bass is not terrible, in fact it's good, and well-integrated. And clearly I have plenty of room to adjust, if needed. So I'm not "worried." But I am confused, and would prefer to understand. I had thought that the process of room correction helped people achieve the reference average of 75db with peaks up to 105db, etc. etc., and that subs were usually set to target 85db by receivers after the user helped calibrate them to 75 db, etc....

My other channels are all +2.0 to -3.0db. But if the -10db number is "correct" for the subs, then if the system is run at reference level, (-0db, something I wouldn't ordinarily do) the receiver would be adjusting output to the subs by -10db to try to achieve reference SPL (105 db peaks?). Otherwise the subs would be "too loud," at reference, even though their gain is already set so low, and is "correct," (i.e., 75db) at the test tone level? Is that the idea? This seems very odd in many ways.

(Or perhaps it means the receiver thinks it can't get the other channels up to 105db peaks, so it will max out at some lower level and wants to keep the subwoofer in line?)

Worse, I am unclear about what the "correct" way to increase bass is, should I wish to do so. Change the -10db setting for each sub to -7db? Increase the gain on the sub and NOT rerun Audyssey? Change something else? Or does the method of bass level tweaking not matter?

I can't imagine I'm the first to encounter, this, so please feel free to point me to existing references. The few things I've found so far aren't really helping me understand what's really going on here, though. I'd rather learn from this experience and not just "set and forget." Thanks for any pointers and guidance.

 

[NINaudio]

My other channels are all +2.0 to -3.0db. But if the -10db number is "correct" for the subs, then if the system is run at reference level, (-0db, something I wouldn't ordinarily do) the receiver would be adjusting output to the subs by -10db to try to achieve reference SPL (105 db peaks?). Otherwise the subs would be "too loud," at reference, even though their gain is already set so low, and is "correct," (i.e., 75db) at the test tone level? Is that the idea? This seems very odd in many ways.

Yes, that is the idea.

Think of the knob on your subwoofer as a gain knob and not a volume knob. It is meant to tell your amp the incoming voltage from the AVR in order for the sub amp to apply the proper "gain" to that signal.

Worse, I am unclear about what the "correct" way to increase bass is, should I wish to do so. Change the -10db setting for each sub to -7db? Increase the gain on the sub and NOT rerun Audyssey? Change something else? Or does the method of bass level tweaking not matter?

Don't touch the control on you sub. You should increase it in your avr by turning the trim up to the level you like. If you're someone who really likes bass you may find turning it up by 3-6 dB preferential.

 

[Leemix]

With multiple subs and room gain its not strange you need some -dB
-10 dB is a nice place to be if you dont have any problems with subs auto wake up.
LFE + Main i thought was a double bass setting, sending the bass from both LFE and below crossovers to the subs but also sending a full range signal to the mains. You should check the manual about that one as its not really a good setting to have on if this is the way it works.

Also its not really Audyssey that sets the volume and distances, thats the manufacturer even if its all in one and looks like it. Doesnt matter but you seem inquisitive so im just mentioning it.
Its also only the first position that is used for volume and distances, the rest are only for Audyssey data points.



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[William Lemmerhirt]

I've been working on my system and continue to improve some things and fall back in other areas, but am making progress overall. I'm a bit bewildered by this situation, though.

When I first set my sub gain at 12 o'clock and ran Audyssey (xt32) it panicked about the sub levels. "OMG, that's too loud! (~95db) Would you like to see a meter and adjust your gain?" So I used that feature and reduced the gain until I hit 75db, the icon turned green, and I moved on. I did this for both subs. The gain is not set as low as it can go, but it's pretty low. (Two Hsu ULS-15 MK2 in a ~23x19x8 room, about 3500 cubic feet.)

Despite this setting, when Audyssey completes, it has set each sub to roughly -10db (range I've seen: -9.5 to -12.0). I have run it multiple times, with 3 and 8 measurement points, and with subs in various locations. I am currently using 80hz crossovers for all channels, 120hz for LFE, and sending LFE+Main to the subs.

The bass is not terrible, in fact it's good, and well-integrated. And clearly I have plenty of room to adjust, if needed. So I'm not "worried." But I am confused, and would prefer to understand. I had thought that the process of room correction helped people achieve the reference average of 75db with peaks up to 105db, etc. etc., and that subs were usually set to target 85db by receivers after the user helped calibrate them to 75 db, etc....

My other channels are all +2.0 to -3.0db. But if the -10db number is "correct" for the subs, then if the system is run at reference level, (-0db, something I wouldn't ordinarily do) the receiver would be adjusting output to the subs by -10db to try to achieve reference SPL (105 db peaks?). Otherwise the subs would be "too loud," at reference, even though their gain is already set so low, and is "correct," (i.e., 75db) at the test tone level? Is that the idea? This seems very odd in many ways.

(Or perhaps it means the receiver thinks it can't get the other channels up to 105db peaks, so it will max out at some lower level and wants to keep the subwoofer in line?)

Worse, I am unclear about what the "correct" way to increase bass is, should I wish to do so. Change the -10db setting for each sub to -7db? Increase the gain on the sub and NOT rerun Audyssey? Change something else? Or does the method of bass level tweaking not matter?

I can't imagine I'm the first to encounter, this, so please feel free to point me to existing references. The few things I've found so far aren't really helping me understand what's really going on here, though. I'd rather learn from this experience and not just "set and forget." Thanks for any pointers and guidance.

Well, as mentioned your subs are just a little hot. Turn down the gain on them and rerun audyssey. It’s not uncommon for the gains to be at 25-30%, which is definitely less than the 12:00 position. I personally like to be at about -5. This allows for a bump, and also will wake the subs up easier. Once you run audyssey, I would only make adjustments to the “both subs” trim. Most of us bump around 3-5db. You don’t want to use the gain knob sunscreen it’s an unknown entity. When you use the AVR’s trim, you have a reference point to go back to. Also, the lfe +mains setting tends to make bass a mess and muddy, and your mains need to be able to handle a lot of bass or they can be damaged. Most that I know, don’t use it.

 

[KEW]

LFE + Main i thought was a double bass setting, sending the bass from both LFE and below crossovers to the subs but also sending a full range signal to the mains. You should check the manual about that one as its not really a good setting to have on if this is the way it works.

You are partially right. The part that you left out is it depends on whether the mains are "small" or "large".
Unless you have truly full range speakers and they happen to be in one of the best locations for bass in your room, we generally end up with mains set to "small" and want all bass below the XO frequency to go to the subwoofer, so, in practice, LFE + Main (with mains set to small) is most often the better choice!

 

[panteragstk]

You are partially right. The part that you left out is it depends on whether the mains are "small" or "large".
Unless you have truly full range speakers and they happen to be in one of the best locations for bass in your room, we generally end up with mains set to "small" and want all bass below the XO frequency to go to the subwoofer, so, in practice, LFE + Main (with mains set to small) is most often the better choice!

I have multiple systems with mains that have very good output down low, but ALL of them are set this way. It just seems to work better and my bass is always nice and blended. I've played around with different settings over the years and this has always sounded the best to me.

 

[Leemix]

You are partially right. The part that you left out is it depends on whether the mains are "small" or "large".
Unless you have truly full range speakers and they happen to be in one of the best locations for bass in your room, we generally end up with mains set to "small" and want all bass below the XO frequency to go to the subwoofer, so, in practice, LFE + Main (with mains set to small) is most often the better choice!

I thought the LFE+main ignored the large/small setting for the front LR. Wouldnt LFE+Main with a front LR small setting (if not ignored) be the exact same thing as just LFE with the same crossovers?

Its been years since i played a little around with that setting but as far as i can recall i got a huge amount of bass with it.


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[Pogre]

The gain on my subs is around 8-9 o'clock. If I had them at 12 it'd be way too much. I'll just mirror the rest of the advice- set the gain, run setup, then do adjustments through the trim settings on your avr. Once your gain is set you shouldn't mess with it after calibrating.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I thought the LFE+main ignored the large/small setting for the front LR. Wouldnt LFE+Main with a front LR small setting (if not ignored) be the exact same thing as just LFE with the same crossovers?

Its been years since i played a little around with that setting but as far as i can recall i got a huge amount of bass with it.


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Here’s a little article on it.

"Large vs Small Subwoofers: Exploring LFE, Main, Double Bass, and More | Subwoofer 101"

Discover the differences between the Large and Small Speaker settings in your AVR, and explore the intricacies of LFE+Main, Double Bass, how crossover works, bass management, and more. Learn how to optimize your audio setup with expert guidance from Subwoofer 101.

www.subwoofer101.com

 

[Leemix]

Here’s a little article on it.

"Large vs Small Subwoofers: Exploring LFE, Main, Double Bass, and More | Subwoofer 101"

Discover the differences between the Large and Small Speaker settings in your AVR, and explore the intricacies of LFE+Main, Double Bass, how crossover works, bass management, and more. Learn how to optimize your audio setup with expert guidance from Subwoofer 101.

www.subwoofer101.com

Unless i read that one wrong thats how i thought it worked. Small use crossover like normal and lfe+main when large sends the full signal to speakers and also bass to sub, i guess i could have been more specific and written that what goes to the sub is decided by the crossover setting but thought that was implied since crossovers activate with the lfe+main setting.

It also looked like if everything is set to small it works the same as normal LFE with speakers set to small.

Am i missing something? (I really would like to know if i am)


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[KEW]

I thought the LFE+main ignored the large/small setting for the front LR.

Small use crossover like normal and lfe+main when large sends the full signal to speakers and also bass to sub,

It is confusing (understandably, because Denon's wording is confusing),and my interpretation of the above two statements makes them contradictory, so I have a hard time answering you!

But let's put it this way:
1) Mains are small - it doesn't matter whether this setting is on "LFE" or "LFE + Mains", the sub takes over all content below the crossover.
2) Mains are large -
If "LFE", the sub will not play the "main signal" (like typical music) below the crossover (it only plays LFE content).
If "LFE + Main", the sub will play music below the XO (in addition to LFE content).

I did screw up part of what I said:

we generally end up with mains set to "small" and want all bass below the XO frequency to go to the subwoofer, so, in practice, LFE + Main (with mains set to small) is most often the better choice!

My last statement (in bold) is incorrect in the sense that if mains are set to small, it doesn't matter whether the sub is LFE or LFE + Main.

I'm going to get specific and a little redundant just to make sure I have this hammered all of the way out...

I thought the LFE+main ignored the large/small setting for the front LR.

The correct statement is the "small" setting ignores the LFE/LFE+Main setting. Look at it as Small/Large comes before this sub setting in the decision tree!

Small use crossover like normal and lfe+main when large sends the full signal to speakers and also bass to sub,

This is why I don't like Denon's wording! The LFE/LFE+MAIN control is a sub control. It does not control what goes to the main, only what goes to the sub. If the speaker is set to "large", it gets the full range signal no matter what... if it is small it doesn't get the full range signal. We only "toggle" the main signal to the sub on and off (but that is only when the mains are large)

It doesn't seem that complex, but it sure does manage to get confusing!

 

[Leemix]

It is confusing (understandably, because Denon's wording is confusing),and my interpretation of the above two statements makes them contradictory, so I have a hard time answering you!

But let's put it this way:
1) Mains are small - it doesn't matter whether this setting is on "LFE" or "LFE + Mains", the sub takes over all content below the crossover.
2) Mains are large -
If "LFE", the sub will not play the "main signal" (like typical music) below the crossover (it only plays LFE content).
If "LFE + Main", the sub will play music below the XO (in addition to LFE content).

I did screw up part of what I said:

My last statement (in bold) is incorrect in the sense that if mains are set to small, it doesn't matter whether the sub is LFE or LFE + Main.

I'm going to get specific and a little redundant just to make sure I have this hammered all of the way out...

The correct statement is the "small" setting ignores the LFE/LFE+Main setting. Look at it as Small/Large comes before this sub setting in the decision tree!


This is why I don't like Denon's wording! The LFE/LFE+MAIN control is a sub control. It does not control what goes to the main, only what goes to the sub. If the speaker is set to "large", it gets the full range signal no matter what... if it is small it doesn't get the full range signal. We only "toggle" the main signal to the sub on and off (but that is only when the mains are large)

It doesn't seem that complex, but it sure does manage to get confusing!

Ah ye sorry, forgot i was sloppy there on the ignore comment. I assumed when LFE + main was activated that the main FL were automatically set to large but with the crossover working with the sub only. Im not 100% sure but i think that was what the first processor i tried the LFE+main setting did, it was a long time ago.

In the end we are basically saying the same thing then, just a bit rushed typing miscommunication.

 

[Pogre]

Ah ye sorry, forgot i was sloppy there on the ignore comment. I assumed when LFE + main was activated that the main FL were automatically set to large but with the crossover working with the sub only. Im not 100% sure but i think that was what the first processor i tried the LFE+main setting did, it was a long time ago.

In the end we are basically saying the same thing then, just a bit rushed typing miscommunication.

When I experimented with lfe+main I noticed that my subs still get a signal in pure/direct.

 

[KEW]

When I experimented with lfe+main I noticed that my subs still get a signal in pure/direct.

Maybe that is it.
I know my final setting are small and LFE + Main and as I was trying to sort things here I could not understand why I had it in my head that I should use LFE + Main.
Thanks!

 

[Pogre]

Maybe that is it.
I know my final setting are small and LFE + Main and as I was trying to sort thing here I could not understand why I had it in my head that I should use LFE + Main.
Thanks!

I kinda discovered it by accident. I'm always playing with my settings and trying different things. Sometimes I forget to put stuff back! When I was doing some listening tests with my craigslist buys I was pretty floored by how much bass those Infinity Overtures were producing. So much so that I got up and checked the subs. Sure enough they were playing as well, which confused the eff out of me because my AVR was in pure direct. I was even gonna post a thread about it, but dug into my menus instead then remembered I'd changed the LFE setting.

 

[lovinthehd]

Like the others have said. One thing is that the 120hz setting for LFE is not a crossover, it's merely a LPF on the LFE channel, and it's nominal setting is 120hz as that is generally the limit to LFE channel content. Setting my subs to -10 is pretty much what I aim at myself, and only raise the levels in the avr (nice to have a more precise way of doing it, and one you can revert to base level any time you want....not so easy with most gain controls on subs).

 

[HTfreak2004]

W

Like the others have said. One thing is that the 120hz setting for LFE is not a crossover, it's merely a LPF on the LFE channel, and it's nominal setting is 120hz as that is generally the limit to LFE channel content. Setting my subs to -10 is pretty much what I aim at myself, and only raise the levels in the avr (nice to have a more precise way of doing it, and one you can revert to base level any time you want....not so easy with most gain controls on subs).

why wouldn’t one just SpL the sub to reference level using its gain knob and then trim it -10 in The AVR/processor?

That’s what makes the most sense to me anyhow.

 

[lovinthehd]

W

why wouldn’t one just SpL the sub to reference level using its gain knob and then trim it -10 in The AVR/processor?

That’s what makes the most sense to me anyhow.

What do you mean "spl the sub to reference level"? What is reference level in this scenario?

That's somewhat the goal, to set the sub up so that it and the speakers arrive at reference level together. Whether the level is showing "0" for the sub channel in the avr after calibration, or a number into the negative range for level is a matter of choice. As was mentioned sometimes a higher output level from the avr may be needed for auto sub turn on, but on the other hand it conceivably provides a bit more headroom for bass management to go further into the negative range. What gain setting is on the sub really doesn't matter as long as you can get full use of the sub's amp....

 

[HTfreak2004]

What do you mean "spl the sub to reference level"? What is reference level in this scenario?

That's somewhat the goal, to set the sub up so that it and the speakers arrive at reference level together. Whether the level is showing "0" for the sub channel in the avr after calibration, or a number into the negative range for level is a matter of choice. As was mentioned sometimes a higher output level from the avr may be needed for auto sub turn on, but on the other hand it conceivably provides a bit more headroom for bass management to go further into the negative range. What gain setting is on the sub really doesn't matter as long as you can get full use of the sub's amp....

According to reference 85 db is the average playback at 0 with 20db (105max) headroom for satellite channels and 30db (115) for the sub that has been bass managed.

When bass from satellite speakers is redirected to the sub in addition to the .LFE signal the sub will play up to 10 db hot vs any other channel!(big demand not many subs like)

If trimmed -10 db within the processor or AVR this restores the sub playback volume to that of the other speakers.

It’s now become common practice to add more subs to increase the SPL above 105 without placing all that effort on a single sub!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If trimmed -10 db within the processor or AVR this restores the sub playback volume to that of the other speakers.

What?