Which Sub to Get? HSU or SVS? Which Model?

[toquemon]

I have found the conversation in this thread very informative, but a little combative in some spots. I think that this stems from how passionate you both are for your respective companies, and while that is admirable, a little more mutual respect might be called for in my opinion. Sorry to sound a little preachy, and like I said it is just my opinion. Good lick to both your companies and keep up the good work.

Just imagine a discussion between the head engineers of Audi, BMW and Mercedes Benz about designing a high performance car. I'm sure the debate would be within the limits of civility and respect, but certainly it would be rispid and rough.

Ok, a question for the guys of SVS or HSU:

Does a double 8" high excursion arrangement in a front firing rear ported cabinet would be equivalent to a 15" normal excursion down firing double ported cabinet?. By equivalent i mean the ability to play very low.

 

[shokhead]

I didnt know HSU invented the sub,wow thats nice to know. I guess everybody else copied from them because the way you make it sound,not one single thing HSU has done was done from somebody else. Give me a break. You do what someone else does and improve on it,thats how the fricken world works. Paul,your not sleeping with the doc are you because it sure sounds like it. If not,your a great mouth for him.LOL. Funny,tom replys without ragg'n on HSU like so many says he did and now its something else.I wanted to here from both but not now and not because of them,because of some of you guys and thats to bad.

 

[Takeereasy]

I'm sure that neither engineer would have said "good lick" by mistake like I did. LOL

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I didnt know HSU invented the sub,wow thats nice to know. I guess everybody else copied from them because the way you make it sound,not one single thing HSU has done was done from somebody else. Give me a break.<<<

Yeah, apparently 10" and 12" drivers, port flaring, ect,ect,ect weren't really used in the 1970s and 1980s...all of those products were just imaginary.:

I do agree that manufacturers focusing on the merits of their own designs is a little strange...but I'm trying to stick with what Rob asked in this thread.

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Does a double 8" high excursion arrangement in a front firing rear ported cabinet would be equivalent to a 15" normal excursion down firing double ported cabinet?. By equivalent i mean the ability to play very low<<<

All things being equal...no. The key factor is cone area. The single 15" will have anywhere from 1.5x to 2x the effective cone area of dual 8" drivers. So if you assume the enclosure is optimized for each application, amp power, porting if it is a ported enclosure, and the drivers have equal excursion...the 15 will have an advantage.

If the application is "high power"...the twin 8s may close the gap slightly, because they'll have twin motors(one per driver) to help with any thermal issues. More power into the voice coil of the driver means more heat. The hotter the voice coil, the less efficient it will be in turning electrical energy into mechanical motion. Of course, modern subwoofer drivers can be designed to handle a LOT of power...but again...all things being equal...two voice coils will be able to handle more power than a single voice coil.

Driver orientation isn't much of an issue, but with dual drivers you can always consider running them facing apart so their reactive forces are cancelled. (see our B12-plus/4 design for an example).

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi all,


>>>Also Tom, could you expand on your comments about SVS full range speakers coming out soon or is it still too early? I am interested in the topic<<<


I really don't have the time to defend SVS from the imaginary conspiracy theory du-jour and personal agendas/attacks at this point. I LOVE talking bass theory, and when discussing different ideas about the reproduction of bass...differences of opinion are natural. Let's face it, none of us learned anything from anyone agreeing with us 100% of the time..

I can go on for pages and pages about our new full range developments...but we all know THAT discussion will just be interrupted by the same couple of folks with new insults...I just don't have time for the kind of BS anymore. I hope you can all understand.


Tom V.
SVS

 

[annunaki]

It would take three 8 inch drivers (of the same series of driver) to surpass a 15 inch in output. The 15" would probably still be more efficent at really low frequencies as it does not have to move as far as the 8 inch drivers to produce the same frequency. As well as require as much power.

 

[Audiosouse]

There's more to life than tubes and port length

Why doesn't Hsu or SVS build sealed subs? I am mainly interested in music playback, and I have read that sealed designs offer quicker and cleaner bass response compared to ported designs.

This is the reason why I have been thinking about the Velodynes and Rels, both of which are sealed designs.

Several noted manufactueres, mainly Paradigm and Sunfire (Bob Carver) are making extremly small subs (14" cubes and smaller) that go below 20Hz (Seismic 17 Hz DIN) with extremely high output. They seem to rely on vast amounts of digital amplified power (Seismic 1200 W RMS, 4500 W peak), massively overbuild high excursion (over 2" peak-to-peak) drivers and sealed designs with passive radiators. I'm assuming this route must be taken due to the dimunitive enclosure. And yet they produce incredibly clean, low and loud bass, making discussions about cabinet size and port tuning moot. So much for the Iron Law...ain't technology grand!

To be fair, these subs cost more. But as my fellow Canuck pointed out, not that much more...especially after exchange, duty, taxes, brokerage fees and shipping.

Not to their discredit, but SVS and Hsu may not have the resources to build such subs, as Mr. Carver seems to be some kind of evil genious and Paradigm has massive financial and technical resources at it's disposal. I mean how many companies can afford to build their own anechoic chamber? Like it or not (and I don't), but WAF is as big a factor as price...maybe even more so. And tiny subs have WAF in spades! One can get away with an expensive product if it looks great to the wife more than an inexpensive product that's big and ugly (to her eyes anyway).

It seems that Hsu is attempting to address this new market with their turbo device. SVS have any plans?

 

[Zarg]

Can We Move On Now?

At this point, can we all just move on? Can we accept that the choice between HSU and SVS is less a matter of objective, quantified empirical data and more a matter of subjective personal taste.

Can we accept that, regardless of whether you purchase an HSU or SV Subwoofer, you are going to get a good product that puts out good low-frequency sound? Either one is a fine choice ... so why ask?

As for me, I'm not going to post anymore to threads that ask me to help someone choose between two good products -- SV vs. HSU, Yamaha vs. Denon, whatever. All I'm going to say is "use your own ears and don't rely on others' tastes".

Maybe others might consider doing the same?

Movin' on now...

 

[paulwalker]

A small subwoofer with a passive radiator is not a sealed design, by definition!

 

[Duffinator]

All I'm going to say is "use your own ears and don't rely on others' tastes".

Maybe others might consider doing the same?

Movin' on now...

But in this case that's difficult to do since both are sold on the internet and you can't run down to your favorite AV store for a side by side comparison. I've found this discussion very educational.......and entertaining.

 

[Audiosouse]

A small subwoofer with a passive radiator is not a sealed design, by definition!

What is your definition then paulwalker? I thought A sealed design is just that, sealed with no port to allow air movement thus creating a pressurized cabinet enabling the driver greater speed and agility.

Most speakers today, including most subwoofers I'm aware of, are bass reflex designs containing a high-velocity low-turbulence resistive port allowing for greater air movement and thus greater low frequency extension?

These subs have no ports, just the driver and two passive radiators on either side, which are essentially two non-powered drivers, but alas, no port to allow air flow and hence, sealed. What is a speaker with passive radiators referred to then?

 

[Zarg]

Sure you can

But in this case that's difficult to do since both are sold on the internet and you can't run down to your favorite AV store for a side by side comparison. I've found this discussion very educational.......and entertaining.

Well, to each his/her own. For me, it was entertaining until it became painful. Kind of like listening fatigue, if you will.

 

[paulwalker]

A passive radiator acts as an acoustic resonator to increase system efficiency and reduce driver excursion demands at the low frequencies, just as a port does. Subwoofers with passive radiators are not considered to be sealed subs.

 

[shokhead]

FWIW,my BW 603 has a passive woofer and a port.

 

[paulwalker]

Passive woofer just means a woofer that does not include a dedicated power amplifier unit.

 

[hopjohn]

Kept thinking of this while reading this post

Seems many people get a little too wrapped up in the lower is better theory. Borrowing from and Outlaw Audio thread on the LFM-1 design principles with Dr. Hsu...I give you the following....

We decided on a 25 Hz design after lengthy discussions with Dr. Hsu. He proposed that 25 Hz provided the best overall audible performance. While we were initially surprised at this recommendation, Dr. Hsu pointed out that when customers have the ability to adjust port frequency, 25 Hz was the most frequently chosen setting, regardless of the capabilities of the system. The reason for this is simple: 99.9% of all deep bass (in music and movie soundtracks) never goes below 25 Hz. Since this setting means that no low frequency would ever be perceived as missing (and of course the physical component of deep bass response would still be there) we capitalized on this design philosophy to develop tight accurate bass response.

I guess if you are big movie fan, where explosions have to knock you out of your chair it's all good. But it seems to me there has always been at least some coincidence between the big car audio bass craze ( circa early 90's...2 Live Crew comes to mind) and those same kids (myself included) growing up and wanting those crazy levels in their house too, whereas before there wasn't this big demand for it, else we'd have seen this push sooner.

2 cents deducted, thanks for playing.

 

[shokhead]

Do you know what year that was said 99% of all deep bass never goes below 25hz?

 

[warnerwh]

Personally many people who want great bass buy VMPS subs. They'll keep up with whatever anybody else makes for an excellent price. Easily competitive with either of these two companies. I"m surprised nobody around here has ever heard of them. VMPS has been building world class bass before SVS and Dr. HSU even thought about starting their own companies. Many many reviews since the early eighties to present to prove this and things have only gotten better. I do believe Nasa uses, or did, several Larger VMPS subs they bought from VMPS to simulate the rumblings of spacecraft. If that's not low powerful bass I don't know what is. There's others who can do it now for more money but for the money VMPS are hard to beat. For less than 1200, much less through a dealer, you can get a sub with an active 15", active 12" and a 15" passive radiator running 1000 watts RMS at 4 ohms or 500 watts RMS at 8 ohms that is both very musical and powerful enough for any movie soundtrack. Note too that one Larger VMPS Sub weighs 140 lbs.