Which Sub to Get? HSU or SVS? Which Model?

[Tdekany]

Really? I think they were both very civil and I learned a few things from the discussion. If it had disintegrated into the kinds of flames you usually see when discussing unproven tweaks and bogus pseudo-scientific claims, I would agree with you - but they weren't discussing those things. They were discussing the slightly different design philosophies of their respective companies, it was informative, and it didn't degrade to a flame fest.

Peter lists what is *new* from Hsu Research (one of them being a patent - pending idea) and the OWNER of svs comes on and tries to discredit pretty much everything Peter mentioned. How is that kosher?

I have seen the owners of svs speak of Dr Hsu in a less than nice matter before but this one eats the cake.

I am glad you are able to see it otherwise. It saddens me.

Just wait until these guys see what the end product is! At least they can't steal this idea for awhile

 

[mtrycrafts]

I realize that this is my first post on this forum - so I will try to be as politically correct as I can be:

Seeing Tom Vodhanel responses to Peter's is one of the most unprofessional behavior I have ever seen from a manufacturer.

Could you help me out here please? Where is that thread? Could you link it for me, please? I tried to reread the posts and must be missing it.
Thanks.

 

[silversurfer]

Could you help me out here please? Where is that thread? Could you link it for me, please? I tried to reread the posts and must be missing it.
Thanks.

You must not be reading this thread as I did. Rather than speaking strictly to his own company's designs, he is trying to discredit a competitor's design. The moderator even stepped in.

 

[hifi007]

I have owned a lot of subwoofers and my current Hsu STF-3 (18Hz tuned) is easily one of the best quality sound buys I have made. With my Paradigm Signature S4's the blend is seemless and very transparent.

Hsu Research is 'Highly Recommended'.

Although it was not planned when purchased, I will no doubt be buying the new Hsu turbocharger even though my STF-3 was factory tuned for 18Hz like the VTF-3 in max extension mode. Removing the port plug and having more port area at the same state of 18Hz tune yet staying with the existing footprint is a great bonus for Hsu owners. Good to see a company concerned about not just sitting on your well earned reputation for sound quality.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>No need for this to become a fight, guys. Hsu & SVS both make good subs and either would be an excellent choice. Please confine your comments to the merits of your own products<<<

Hi Rob, I apologize to the forum if I stepped over any rules in this discussion. I have always thought an open and honest discussion about the actual physics of subwoofer design(esp between two manufacturers or serious DIYers) was more interesting to forum members than manufacturers just promoting their own ideas. I can understand that(keeping manufacturer disagreements to a minimum), it is just something a bit unusual as most forums seem to desire just the opposite..

Since the discussion changed from cylindrical design(and cost of cylindrical construction) to announcing the "merits" of our own designs...I guess the new SVS PB12-plus deserves a few comments..

1)500+ watt amp. That is continuous RMS power.
2)industry leading 12" driver with almost two inches of peak to peak linear stroke and the most motor strength in its class.
3)TRIPLE 3" flared ports...all open in 20hs mode. This mode actually offer anechoic extension to 18hz(flat)...so in room extension down to the 16hz range will be common. Or, you can plug one port---still have DUAL 3" flared ports open...and now have in room extension down to the 12hz range.
4)built in parametric EQ(on the wood veneer units)
5)Real wood veneers

All at $999.($899 for satin black).

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Peter Marcks]

Too funny. This is starting to turn into an infomercial

All I can say is that all good things come to those who wait. Trust me on that one.

A very sincere thank you to all those who have supported us through the years!

Sincerely,

 

[shokhead]

I enjoy you guys talking about your stuff and learning abit more about subs. Now which one is going to give a discount if we mention this thread when we buy one of your subs in the next 30 days. Keep talking it un,i enjoy it.

 

[bhrvatin]

I enjoy you guys talking about your stuff and learning abit more about subs. Now which one is going to give a discount if we mention this thread when we buy one of your subs in the next 30 days. Keep talking it un,i enjoy it.

Right on shokhead!

BTW Peter/Tom, the conversation has been nothing but stimulating. I am in the market for a <$1k sub and the dialogue in this forum has caused me to rethink my original plan...

 

[toquemon]

You must not be reading this thread as I did. Rather than speaking strictly to his own company's designs, he is trying to discredit a competitor's design. The moderator even stepped in.

This is not a discredit action; this is a debate. The discredit action is personal, the debate is and exchange of ideas.

 

[silversurfer]

This is not a discredit action; this is a debate. The discredit action is personal, the debate is and exchange of ideas.

He certainly did not write about the merit or innovation of his own designs, but rather debate a competitor's. To me, that seems to be shying away from one's own merits and competence, and marketing against your competitor.

Like I posted before, even the moderator stepped in.

 

[shokhead]

I thought they both debated to and at each other and just because the mod stepped in doesnt been most of us didnt like it, i learned something about the sub works,how much one belives in there own stuff and it was great. Really no different then what we do when we belive in something,they are no different.

 

[DSMCasey]

For the Record I started this post and I will be ordering an SVS. I've read all I can and talked to several people on this board as well as others and I think the SVS is better for me. I think the HSU is a GREAT sub though and wouldn't mind owning one.

I have several reasons for choosing SVS over HSU. One of them is the fact that I see the owners of the company posting all over the place to back-up thier product and help promote it. I don't see Dr. Hsu's posts anywhere (with the exception of One on the HSU forum) Also for about $800 I can get a 500 watt sub from SVS, it takes $1200 to get a sub with 500 watts from HSU. 50% more $$$.

-Casey

 

[Tdekany]

For the Record I started this post and I will be ordering an SVS. I've read all I can and talked to several people on this board as well as others and I think the SVS is better for me. I think the HSU is a GREAT sub though and wouldn't mind owning one.

I have several reasons for choosing SVS over HSU. One of them is the fact that I see the owners of the company posting all over the place to back-up thier product and help promote it. I don't see Dr. Hsu's posts anywhere (with the exception of One on the HSU forum) Also for about $800 I can get a 500 watt sub from SVS, it takes $1200 to get a sub with 500 watts from HSU. 50% more $$$.

-Casey

Casey - have fun with your new sub. I really mean it. I am sure you will enjoy it a great deal.

As far as Dr Hsu not soliciting (I mean helping ) on any other forum besides his own - well you would have to know something about the man.

While I have been a long time HSU owner (Over 10 years) I could never support svs. To me they are doing nothing more than copying his work. One of the owners use to praise his work until he started his own company and talked less then nice of the Dr. many times over the years.

At a recent HIFI show 2 svs guys go into the HSU room, take pictures of his products and they leave. Wouldn't even introduce themselves or at least say hello to the Dr. (who btw is a TRUE audio genious). That is why I support him and his products. His subs sound different. (more musical). He is definately not a copycat unlike some others who just put parts together.

Keep an eye out for the new HO subs - svs fanboys have been talking SPL numbers against HSU products ( they do well in that department just fine) well, the Dr. is responding with some new technology that will shut those guys up!

PS: give us some form of review to see how the sub worked out for you.

Thomas

 

[Peter Marcks]

Dear Casey,

We respect your decision 100%. There are many excellent products to choose from, catering to individuals with various preferences. I do not think that amplifier power is of any concern for VTF-3 owners, as the subwoofer has 1400 watts of peak power, but that is really besides the point here on what is a personal decision.

The TN1220HO with the 500 watt amp is that expensive (albeit with free shipping) because it uses an expensive class H amplifier design with a line level high pass for high resolution 2-channel music systems. This amp also allows hookup of a second subwoofer, distributing 400 watts *2 into two TN series subwoofers. So for a relatively small cost, one could almost double their output by adding a second TN1220HO, and cut distortion in half and minimize reactive forces at the same time. Of course, it is out of stock at this time, so the above is more informational than anything

Dr. Hsu is far too busy with R&D, meetings, phone calls, emails, travel, wife, kids etc to spend much time on the internet. Remember, he is only a call or an email away, and always very willing to help, without providing the hype. To spend too much time on these forums would also not be appropriate in our eyes, as it would be excessive and blatant marketing of our own products for free. Our goal is to educate consumers as much as possible about our products and about subwoofers in general.

Sincerely,

 

[DSMCasey]

I have heard that before, that SVS copied HSU. But who really cares? Look at your computer, AMD started out by copying Pentium (so did Cyrix for that fact). Every time you go to a fast food place you see similar products, with a few exceptions. I mean you got the whopper, the Big Mac, the Jumbo Jack, and the Single with Cheese. They're all cheeseburgers with just a few differences. It is the American way. Lowes and Home Depot, Wal-mart and K-Mart, Best Buy and Circuit City, etc. etc. etc. If someone has an idea and you can make it better then go for it. Is the SVS product better? Who knows? I can tell you it’s cheaper though and that was the deciding factor for me. Do you guys at HSU build a great product? Yes I'm sure you do. I see SVS and HSU as equals in product quality, it was the value pricing that gave SVS my business.

But hey, If you guys at HSU were to send me a free sub I think I would have a new favorite sub

Cheers,
Casey

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>While I have been a long time HSU owner (Over 10 years) I could never support svs. To me they are doing nothing more than copying his work. One of the owners use to praise his work until he started his own company and talked less then nice of the Dr. many times over the years.<<<


Tdekany, that isn't true. If you disagree, show your evidence.

Anyone who takes a few minutes to look over the entire product line of SVS will quickly realize we aren't "copying" anyone. We were discussing the merits of larger enclosures, more port area, longer driver stroke, bigger amps for 5+ years now...and now some of competition has decided to play catch up in those regards...cool.


>>>At a recent HIFI show 2 svs guys go into the HSU room, take pictures of his products and they leave. Wouldn't even introduce themselves or at least say hello to the Dr.<<<

Not true.


>>>(who btw is a TRUE audio genious). That is why I support him and his products. His subs sound different. (more musical). He is definately not a copycat unlike some others who just put parts together.<<<

"puts parts together" Can you explain this phrasing a little more?

At SVS we have been designing our own custom drivers, amps, enclosures, ect since day one. We've been using our own customized BASH amps for years now for example. Nice units, our competition has finally caught on to how good they are and followed our lead(again)..


>>>Keep an eye out for the new HO subs - svs fanboys have been talking SPL numbers against HSU products<<<

Yes, please. Watch how SVS owners primarily discuss their subwoofers and what they like about them. As opposed to this type of post...which discusses nothing about (any)product performance and is full of falsehoods and vague claims of nonsense ("just put parts together"). Yup, THIS is real helpful in furthering a mature discussion on subwoofer design and theory?

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Rob Babcock]

Healthy competition definately improves the breed. Both SVS and Hsu make superb products. While it seems early SVS subs were influenced by the Hsu's, they've definately added some twists of their own, and their extensive lineup of box subs seems to be 100% SVS.

So long as the debate is courteous and respectful, I have no problem with it whatever. I've seen this topic get out of hand on several other forums, so I merely want insure it stays civil.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

Hi Casey,

>>>Also for about $800 I can get a 500 watt sub from SVS<<<

While amplifier power is very important, it is equally important to remember it is only one piece of the puzzle.. When you have over 500w of power on tap...that means the driver has to be able to handle it, the enclosure has to be strong enough, the porting needs to flow enough air...ect. I'm not sure which model you've purchased...but it may be the $825 20-39PC+? This model includes the dB12 driver...with almost 2" of peak to peak linear stroke. The cylindrical enclosure is a full 1/4" thick, with 1.5" thick birch endcaps! And you'll have triple 3" flared ports all flowing in the 20hz setting...which will give you very strong output down to the 16-17hz range in all but the largest of rooms.

Another important note on amplifiers...you will see manufacturers rating them in two distinct ways. RMS or continuous output. And "peak" or "dynamic" output. RMS/continuous simply means the amplifier can provide that power for a reasonably long time....10 minutes for example. Peak/dynamic power can mean almost ANYTHING though. We can "rate" our 525w PC+ amplifier for 750,1000,1500, heck...even 2000w of power and say "peak/dynamic". The caveat with this type of rating is the amplifier may on;y be able to produce that power for a few milliseconds. So if you have a sustained LFE bass track on your new DVD...something with very loud bass for 3-5 seconds for example...that "peak" rating will be accurate for the first few milliseconds...after that?

Probably the best thing for the consumer to do is to ask, specifically...how the "peak" rating is measured. For example, how long can the amplifier sustain that output? Then you can take that knowledge and compare it to the real(RMS/continuous) power...and comparison shop..

Tom V.
SVS

 

[Takeereasy]

I'd like to pipe in again with another $.02. As I mentioned before, I was helping someone pick out a sub for a new HT. I was trying to decide between the VTF3 and the STF3 so I emailed HSU the concern I had. I received a prompt and courteous reply, but, it was one that didn't fully cover my question. Not because the answer wasn't in there somewhere, but because I am exceptionaly slow when it comes to technical stuff. The numbers, they sting like spiders. Attached to the email was a contact number and a suggestion to call DR. Hsu directly if I had any other questions or if I needed the answer explained in more detail. I called and had my answer in laymens terms directly from him in short order. I found this to be exceptional customer service, and to me an owner willing to speak to the general public shows just how dedicated to, and proud of a product someone is. The person who wound up with the sub in question has not stopped listening to music and movies for over a month straight now, only letting work interupt their fun, and they are thrilled with their purchase.

For me the choice in subs was largely dictated by geography because, as I stated in my prior post, HSU has a dealer network here in Canada that can provide substantial savings over SVS. That being said if I had my druthers I would love to try out a SVS 16-46PCi. It is almost calling out to me, I mean 16hz for $650 seems like an unbeatable value to me. The good news is Tom has said that SVS is looking into setting up in Canada as well. I know that it may be a while, but a sub is 3rd down on my list of upgrades, maybe a year and a bit away unless the financial situation changes (ie those lottery tickets I've been investing in finally pay off).

Also Tom, could you expand on your comments about SVS full range speakers coming out soon or is it still too early? I am interested in the topic.

I have found the conversation in this thread very informative, but a little combative in some spots. I think that this stems from how passionate you both are for your respective companies, and while that is admirable, a little more mutual respect might be called for in my opinion. Sorry to sound a little preachy, and like I said it is just my opinion. Good lick to both your companies and keep up the good work.

 

[paulwalker]

I have never, ever, ever, ever seen a company owner stoop to such aggressive levels of marketing of their own product on the bbs as Tom Vodhanel of SVS has done here. Same old line by line laundry list of features, again and again and again and again. Pretty sick stuff. There goes my respect for the guy.

Ok, now for some more. Quite clearly SVS has copied several design ideas from Hsu Research. For someone to claim otherwise is lying through their teeth.

Slowly but sure, SVS has copied almost all of the major design points from Hsu Research subwoofers:

*Tall ported cylindrical enclosures
*Large ported box enclosures
*12 inch drivers
*10 inch drivers
*Long flared 4" ports
*Long flared 3" ports
*Variable tuning via port plug
*Custom eq for variable tuning modes
*Subsonic filtering
*6th order amplifier design

That's not to say that they shouldn't, since Hsu Research makes the best value products on the market (IMO). But the true visionary here is Dr. Hsu, and always has been Dr. Hsu.

And if you are going to copy design elements, at least have the decency to admit that you did so, and give credit to the one who came up with many of these ideas in the first place.

Obviously, to prevent from being sued (although I think they could have been sued for trade dress if Dr. Hsu wanted to), they had to change things up a bit (mix up the driver firing direction; mix up the port config; mix up the aesthetics). But there is no denying that their entire subwoofer philosophy stems from root technology that Hsu Research introduced with the TN1220HO, and then VTF-2, and then VTF-3.

To be fair, they have come up with some of their own ideas over the years. But then again, who wouldn't? Powered cylinder comes to mind, although no self-respecting engineer would ever want to cut the cylinder simply in order to mount an amp there. Personally, I wouldn't touch their powered cylinders with a ten foot pole because of that, but then again it is convenient for some. Of course, they have also come out with dual driver products. Their dual driver subwoofers are compromised in some ways vs their single driver subwoofers. Their dual driver subwoofers have a higher tune with all ports open, and barely have more internal volume than some of the single driver models like the 12-Plus. This approach is not really novel, but it does cater to certain interests.

Moving from 350 watts to 500 watts of RMS power is not really a big deal. It's more marketing than anything else. This would lead to a virtually undetectable increase in output, no more than 1db. Also, each amplifier and design has various efficiency tradeoffs, so it is misleading to compare only based on RMS, or only peak, power.

Hsu's new technology seems to give them an edge on their ported competition. Dr. Hsu is yet again redefining the ported subwoofer market.