Where's are all the Stereo Pre-Amp's relative to all these Power Amps?

MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Yeah someone posted a Shinola tt earlier, I have the same sort of issue with "Nobsound" but they do seem to have some legit products. Schiity type names don't work for everyone, tho :) What do you need the pre-amp to do particularly?
I'm mainly toying with the idea of getting a new power amp and need a way to manage the volume. My current DAC is good, but doesn't have volume or pre-amp volume control qualities in that way, just dac pre-amp outputs (two that operates simultaneously). I have a few DACs but none have volume or pre-amp volume control. So I would need a pre-amp to control volume, or use something like a receiver with pre-amp output to do that.

I do have a pre-amp in the form of a Little Dot Mk III, but I'm not sure I always want an OTL tube amp involved in the total pathway.

So was just looking for a simple stereo solid state pre-amp so I could use DAC -> pre-amp -> power amp and just use two towers. I actually like basic towers over bookshelves + sub in general. I have both. But it's just a preference when it comes to music listening.

So just exploring options. I'm not looking for the $50 stuff. But I'm also not looking for a $1k+ pre-amp either. Hard to find something in the middle.

Very best,
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm mainly toying with the idea of getting a new power amp and need a way to manage the volume. My current DAC is good, but doesn't have volume or pre-amp volume control qualities in that way, just dac pre-amp outputs (two that operates simultaneously). I have a few DACs but none have volume or pre-amp volume control. So I would need a pre-amp to control volume, or use something like a receiver with pre-amp output to do that.

I do have a pre-amp in the form of a Little Dot Mk III, but I'm not sure I always want an OTL tube amp involved in the total pathway.

So was just looking for a simple stereo solid state pre-amp so I could use DAC -> pre-amp -> power amp and just use two towers. I actually like basic towers over bookshelves + sub in general. I have both. But it's just a preference when it comes to music listening.

So just exploring options. I'm not looking for the $50 stuff. But I'm also not looking for a $1k+ pre-amp either. Hard to find something in the middle.

Very best,
Yeah haven't seen much in the middle but if you don't need more than one source I'd probably give that Nobsound a try....it's even got a balanced option if you have the dac/amp connections to match. As long as your dac has sufficient output....
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Yeah haven't seen much in the middle but if you don't need more than one source I'd probably give that Nobsound a try....it's even got a balanced option if you have the dac/amp connections to match. As long as your dac has sufficient output....
Yea, I suppose I could try one just to see. Nothing to lose really. Maybe for Science this will be the next thing to throw money away at.

Very best,
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yea, I suppose I could try one just to see. Nothing to lose really. Maybe for Science this will be the next thing to throw money away at.

Very best,
We loves guinea pigs! :) Trying to remember who got that...he's quite pleased but not sure what he's "pre-amping" either.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Well heck,

Any thoughts on this?


This one is discontinued, but otherwise, I would try it:


I might try that OSD over a Nobsound or similar. Would love to know if anyone has tried that OSD. Their amps are decent for entry level. Maybe that pre-amp is ok? $100 is a comfy price. Just questionable quality of course. It's not pretty but it doesn't look stupid either with a dumb name like "nob" lol.

Very best,
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well heck,

Any thoughts on this?


This one is discontinued, but otherwise, I would try it:


I might try that OSD over a Nobsound or similar. Would love to know if anyone has tried that OSD. Their amps are decent for entry level. Maybe that pre-amp is ok? $100 is a comfy price. Just questionable quality of course. It's not pretty but it doesn't look stupid either with a dumb name like "nob" lol.

Very best,
Then again Nob Hill in SF is somewhat prestigious :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It looks great, but the audio specs are uninspiring for a preamp at that price point. I have to wonder what kind of parts they used for volume control, and buffers etc., for the relatively low specs.

Specs:
Total Harmonic Distortion: (20 Hz - 20 kHz)
<0.015%
Interchannel Crosstalk:
62 dB at 20 kHz

I know someone will say THD means nothing or little and I won't argue with that because there is no point. So for those people, as long as they don't want/need bass management and phono input, I think this preamp can be a great choice for a simple/basic stereo system.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
This...


It's $450 new on Crutchfield, but you might be able to find B-stock, demo, or used for much cheaper.
Hi, yea, thanks, I have that one linked in the primary post. It's the nicest looking one to me too. Ultimately I think that's the type I would go for, when it comes time to build a more serious setup. I like the price for all its features and good components. Seems reasonable. Even has a remote which is great and variable output with sub if ever needed and fixed outputs. Not crazy like these $1k ones that lack a lot of things I'd want in that price range. I'd love to find a local used one.

It looks great, but the audio specs are uninspiring for a preamp at that price point. I have to wonder what kind of parts they used for volume control, and buffers etc., for the relatively low specs.

Specs:
Total Harmonic Distortion: (20 Hz - 20 kHz)
<0.015%
Interchannel Crosstalk:
62 dB at 20 kHz

I know someone will say THD means nothing or little and I won't argue with that because there is no point. So for those people, as long as they don't want/need bass management and phono input, I think this preamp can be a great choice for a simple/basic stereo system.
Thanks, yea I don't expect it to be great, but at the same time, that doesn't mean it can't sound good and never know. I may get one just to fool around with it since it's only $100.

Of course, the only way forward, is to buy several and just do a shoot out.... :p

Very best,
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi, yea, thanks, I have that one linked in the primary post. It's the nicest looking one to me too. Ultimately I think that's the type I would go for, when it comes time to build a more serious setup. I like the price for all its features and good components. Seems reasonable. Not crazy like these $1k ones that lack a lot of things I'd want in that price range. I'd love to find a local used one.



Thanks, yea I don't expect it to be great, but at the same time, that doesn't mean it can't sound good and never know. I may get one just to fool around with it since it's only $100.

Of course, the only way forward, is to buy several and just do a shoot out.... :p

Very best,
Of course, as I mentioned many times that I don't put a lot of value in subjective measurements based on: been there, done that.., or may be because I am an engineer trained to rely on facts and data. So to me, talks about brands having their sound just aren't logical, when comparing products at similar price point, design, specs and measurements. On that, you don't have to be an EE, just have to check the definitions of audio specs such as distortions that include magnitude (FR), phase distortions, waveforums (THD), SNR, DR, XT and then just think logically.

A couple simple example of myths being propagated, sometimes by even "experts":

THD+N has no or little relationship to sound quality?
This can be valid with stated caveats, but imo not so much (can agree to some extents) as a general statement. Logically, would it matter if one gear's THD+N measured -65 dB, 20-20,000 Hz, from 0.5 W output to rated output and the other measured -75 dB, probably not, but -55 dB vs -75 dB would certainly matter because the difference would be audible.

Some will say, it depends on the harmonic profiles/contents, again true to some extents as a general statement, but if THD+N, being "total", is at -100 dB (for argument sake) such as that achieved by some Denon models, then who care what the harmonics are, a total of 0 is still 0 right? so if the total is 0.001% (some prefer %), it can't be worse than one that has 1%, even if the gear with 1% THD has only low order harmonics such as 2nd and 3rd.

I can give examples of the often mentioned "what about slew rate", damping factor and others that may not be typically measured, but would do so on request only as I know full well for those who insist on the only thing that matters are what their ears tell them, measurements are for %$&*(@... You seem like open minded to both subjective and objective measurements so I took liberty to vent just a little, hope you don't mind.:)
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Of course, as I mentioned many times that I don't put a lot of value in subjective measurements based on: been there, done that.., or may be because I am an engineer trained to rely on facts and data. So to me, talks about brands having their sound just aren't logical, when comparing products at similar price point, design, specs and measurements. On that, you don't have to be an EE, just have to check the definitions of audio specs such as distortions that include magnitude (FR), phase distortions, waveforums (THD), SNR, DR, XT and then just think logically.

A couple simple example of myths being propagated, sometimes by even "experts":

THD+N has no or little relationship to sound quality?
This can be valid with stated caveats, but imo not so much (can agree to some extents) as a general statement. Logically, would it matter if one gear's THD+N measured -65 dB, 20-20,000 Hz, from 0.5 W output to rated output and the other measured -75 dB, probably not, but -55 dB vs -75 dB would certainly matter because the difference would be audible.

Some will say, it depends on the harmonic profiles/contents, again true to some extents as a general statement, but if THD+N, being "total", is at -100 dB (for argument sake) such as that achieved by some Denon models, then who care what the harmonics are, a total of 0 is still 0 right? so if the total is 0.001% (some prefer %), it can't be worse than one that has 1%, even if the gear with 1% THD has only low order harmonics such as 2nd and 3rd.

I can give examples of the often mentioned "what about slew rate", damping factor and others that may not be typically measured, but would do so on request only as I know full well for those who insist on the only thing that matters are what their ears tell them, measurements are for %$&*(@... You seem like open minded to both subjective and objective measurements so I took liberty to vent just a little, hope you don't mind.:)
Indeed, I like both. The science and data points are absolutely valid, but the subjective side does matter. So I like to see and/or hear both. Something that measures bad can sound good, psychoacoustically and something that measures really well can sound not great psychoacoustically (let's just pretend both are setup ideally in an optimal room with appropriate treatment and high quality source material, etc).

I think it's possible that some people can hear minute differences in things, but for the most part, trying to say one can hear a technical difference is mostly something I gloss over unless its described appropriately.

Instead, for me, a subjective experience account is more about how it makes the listener feel, was it enjoyable, was it warm and fogiving or harsh and unforgiving of source material, was it sloppy or not, etc. I don't care to read when someone says they hear "more sound stage" or something where they just use words and really can't quantify nor qualify any of it, might as well just say "I like it" or not or describe what it actually sounded like to you (ex, I felt like I was sitting in the center of an orchestra and could hear all the instruments wrapped around me but in their separate locations; versus it sounded like I was at the end of a long hall way and everything just sounds in front of me and in the center basically). I get tired of jargon being used with zero actual meaning, as it just gives me the impression that the user probably doesn't really know what the jargon even means in real world vs internet slang, etc. Maybe I'm wrong. But I just don't like those kinds of subjective reviews (ie, wide sound stage, detailed `highs,' organic, etc). I just brush past those things. But I do like subjective reviews that talk about how it felt when they listened, what it was comparable to in their experience in the real world, and if they can describe qualities and quantities with examples rather than just dropping a blanket term, like the oh-so-tiresome "sound stage." Sigh, triggered right? Lol. I tell ya, I hate reading "detailed highs" or "sound stage" comments. I don't know why I don't like when I read someone say the "highs," but I just can't stand it. It's dumb, I know.

I do really enjoy the technical reviews too, with measurements. I'm not an engineer but I can appreciate data and measurements that correspond with desirable traits in an audio pathway. There's value in knowing how things compare with measurements that doesn't require a language translation or dictionary to really comprehend other than the metrics involved. Sadly, not everything can be measured in psychoacoustic terms though, so they don't translate without a subjective report. Also measurements and data points allow one to have something to actually learn about, look up, develop their knowledge base about it, etc. It's not just some living language that can be misinterpreted with language barrier. It keeps it dead simple and comparable.

I absolutely like both. Sometimes you need to know something is enjoyable or too clinical and sometimes you need to know that it measures really well or it measures mediocre to poorly and if that translates to anything meaningful for the end user experience. That's the fun part right? Listening? I'm only just now tip-toeing with measuring things, but I can appreciate the stuff over at ASR (minus the "I can or cannot recommend..." crap at the end, it's like presenting a paper and then endorsing a product for marketing, kills all the beauty of the science prior to that point).

Very best,
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Update,

So I just tested my Little Dot Mk III as a pre-amp and it works flawlessly and sounds great. I was worried since it's an OTL tube amp that it would produce a lot of problems potentially with the impedance and dampening and all that. I don't know the internal circuitry with the output on this amplifier as its primarily a headphone amp but happens to function as a pre-amp with an analog volume knob and pre-amp output on the back. I just hooked it up and tested it out and it passes the signal and I can control the volume great with the knob. So I may be fine just using this as a pre-amp for the time being. I still am interested in getting a solid state one for the future just to compare the end-result sound. But then again, I enjoy looking at the glowing tubes. Just no remote of course...

LittleDotMarkIII_Pre-Amp.jpg


Very best,
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
I saw these, like $50, lots of generic chinese pre-amps and amps, dacs, etc, under various names. I'm sure they work. Just dubious about the quality. I'd be willing to try it. Just not a fan of seeing something like "Nobsound" lol on the front.

Very best,
Just for fun I was poking around on AliExpress looking at wifi capable integrated amps. There are some interesting things coming out of China. Hate the Nobsound name too :D but here is a list of preamp and phono stages. At those prices it's tempting to just try and play with them. Problem is that the amplifier specs look over rated, probably at 10% THD or something silly like that, but if they rate it 240W @10% and it's actually 80W @0.1% then it's not really that bad. Somebody should start a Youtube channel and review all of these! ;)
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Senior Audioholic
Just for fun I was poking around on AliExpress looking at wifi capable integrated amps. There are some interesting things coming out of China. Hate the Nobsound name too :D but here is a list of preamp and phono stages. At those prices it's tempting to just try and play with them. Problem is that the amplifier specs look over rated, probably at 10% THD or something silly like that, but if they rate it 240W @10% and it's actually 80W @0.1% then it's not really that bad. Somebody should start a Youtube channel and review all of these! ;)
Interesting stuff, yea there's a lot of cheap Chinese electronics that are probably as least good for their price. Some of their names are better than others. I've tried quite a few, just not as a pre-amp in a stereo system with speakers. But I've done lots of headphone ones. The "Little Bear" series amplifiers have a cute name and looked great, and were very inexpensive. Some of these cheap Asia based companies get bigger and become a house-hold name brand for the community (Fiio, etc). In that $50~100 range, it's easy to just play around and try things. I know lots of people who would just snub the idea because the price and origin isn't "audiophile" enough for them, but those types clearly are not into listening to audio and are just into collecting veblen items, so whatever. I'd llike to see great measurements and metrics of course, but at the end of the day, if it sounds good, it sounds good. Some things are distorted and and full of issues and we love it for it... electric guitar for example.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have got to say, I cannot stand this budget/cheap Onkyo SR333 receiver. I bought it a long time ago from A4L and it's inexpensive and does its job. But it just doesn't sound good. I thought I was crazy and it was placebo until I measured its output via the speakers. When its set to Direct, it sounds good and measures how I would expect. But, you lose sub-out, so that doesn't work well with bookshelves for me and so I prefer towers on a receiver that is set to Direct. But when its switched to Stereo to allow bass management and sub-out use and all that, it sounds worse to me. I thought it was my imagination. I went through all of its settings and disabled anything I could that would influence processing and stuff and even turned off the subwoofer and management and stuff and just A-B tested the bookshelf speakers on it with the only difference being when its set to Direct and when set to Stereo. It clearly sounds worse in Stereo, and by worse I mean that the overall frequency response was changed and not in a good way, it sounded veiled and overly warm, like the treble took a dive, which made the mids and upper bass sound more pronounced so it sounded more boomy in the bass and the mids were ok still, but treble just suffered and it lost a lot of what I liked in these tweeters that I put in these bookshelves.

So here's the measurement, the only difference is the Onkyo SR333 is set to Direct and Stereo with no sub and all bass mangement off and no processing applied. Just swapping this "mode" on the unit does this. It drops all SPL significantly and rolls the treble off, just by setting it to stereo!

OnkyoSR333_Direct_vs_Stereo.jpg


That's terrible! So this SR333 is being retired from stereo listening and is going to go to another room for the kids to use. It sounds fine on Direct mode, but man, the point of it is to have other features so when set to Stereo it just drops the treble and kills it for me. Not worth it.

I usually don't even use this receiver, I've just been trying it for some things lately for convenience. I'm back to using my integrated amplifier and the sound is just much better to me. I generally use receivers for home theater and for simple setups where I want a remote. I much prefer my more recent Yamahas to this Onkyo and my previous Onkyo died. But this budget SR333 (emphasis on budget) sounds bad on Stereo mode. That treble roll off is bad!

So I can only imagine what $50 cheap electronics do to things. :( But hey, I don't mind spending $50 to try things... way better than a few hundred dollars for some cheap thrills.

Very best,
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic Ninja
Your post reminded of an old preamp I have and the amp I once used:

I did some silly but fun stuff in my 20's. While working as a repair tech we got a hold of a couple of 50W mono-block amplifiers. These were unique at the time. The entire amp was an IC encased in epoxy and attached to a large heat-sink with 4 connector pins sticking out. 2 pins for DC voltage and 2 pins for the input. I found two large 120V transformers with the proper AC output voltage (weighed 8 pounds each!), got 2 heavy duty bridge rectifiers to convert to DC, and connected four VERY large capacitors that came second had from an aircraft. I'm talking over 25,000 micro-farad like these babies, only bigger:
4381417.jpg
No ripple current with those caps! :D
I ran that amp off of a Toshiba preamp (which I still own) and it did what it was supposed to but lord knows what the actual specs were on it. Those capacitors held such a large charge that when you switched the amp off, it would continue to play for another 20 seconds before the caps drained. :D
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Almost no one I know has a dedicated 2.0 or 2.x stereo system for music listening anymore, besides a few of you virtual guys on this forum. Everyone I know has switched to HT systems which they occasionally play music on with only the L/R speakers and subs. I'm the only dinosaur left in my circle. I think that says a lot about why stereo pre-amps are becoming nearly unavailable. Knowing that I'm a dinosaur, and that a couple of decades ago I had been known to like Mark Levinson equipment back when Madrigal owned them, a friend just sent me a link to this pre-amp, thinking it's a bargain. So I thought of this thread. He still has vinyl, which I wouldn't be caught dead with (he's also into McIntosh stuff, but that's neither here nor there), but if you have $10K for a pre-amp, at least it looks good:

@Irvrobinson
I resemble those remarks ! I had 5.1 systems for years and just grew tired of them.
When we built this new home I chose to go 2.1 (no need to forgo a sub just to have stereo) and stick with it.
My humble little room does stereo (with a sub) and I love it just that way. On purpose.
I may be the only dinosaur left as well. Except I'm pretty sure there are a few others lurking around.

The overall market probably moved to some form of HT long ago. Something instant, and out of a box.
The guys who hang out here don't use HT systems out of a box, they do it the old fashioned way by assembling them and hand caring for them. I think we are the exceptions however. This is the oddest hobby these days.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
@Irvrobinson
I resemble those remarks ! I had 5.1 systems for years and just grew tired of them.
When we built this new home I chose to go 2.1 (no need to forgo a sub just to have stereo) and stick with it.
My humble little room does stereo (with a sub) and I love it just that way. On purpose.
I may be the only dinosaur left as well. Except I'm pretty sure there are a few others lurking around.

The overall market probably moved to some form of HT long ago. Something instant, and out of a box.
The guys who hang out here don't use HT systems out of a box, they do it the old fashioned way by assembling them and hand caring for them. I think we are the exceptions however. This is the oddest hobby these days.
Buck, there are plenty of old sods out there besides Irv, yourself and I o_O

As for pre-amps / line stages not readily available, nonsense, just gotta know where to look !
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
@Irvrobinson
I resemble those remarks ! I had 5.1 systems for years and just grew tired of them.
When we built this new home I chose to go 2.1 (no need to forgo a sub just to have stereo) and stick with it.
My humble little room does stereo (with a sub) and I love it just that way. On purpose.
I may be the only dinosaur left as well. Except I'm pretty sure there are a few others lurking around.

The overall market probably moved to some form of HT long ago. Something instant, and out of a box.
The guys who hang out here don't use HT systems out of a box, they do it the old fashioned way by assembling them and hand caring for them. I think we are the exceptions however. This is the oddest hobby these days.
Okay, you're officially the only person I know who has gone from an HT system to a dedicated 2ch music system. I'm impressed.
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General

and for more money....

 
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