When is justice to be served?

[Rickster71]

The reason I asked the question about Bill Clinton not doing anything when the Trade Center was bombed the 'First' time.
I wondered if you were as vocal with your criticism of Bill Clinton?
I also wonder if Clinton did 'step up'; would we be in the mess we are now?

 

[haraldo]

The reason I asked the question about Bill Clinton not doing anything when the Trade Center was bombed the 'First' time.
I wondered if you were as vocal with your criticism of Bill Clinton?
I also wonder if Clinton did 'step up'; would we be in the mess we are now?

B.T.W. The forst World Trade Center attack was not even remotely connected to 9/11, In my humble opinion: I think it's unfair to say that Clinton didn't do enough.... At that time the US had more goodwill because the US presdident was not trying to force his opinions through, by brute force, or call it war......l..
If you don't agree with me I will kill you, is that the general US President state of mind....

If Tibet had large oil reserves, you can be sure the US would have been in there "securing" them some time ago.

Couldn't agree more!!!!


Speaking as a Norwegian/European citizen.... I have met so many people from the US, people from the states are nice!!!!!!!!!
So why is there such an arrogant violent president, the only thing he actually achive is to bring the US citizen to shame, and that's a shame because people that get to know the American way of life will know that it's good!!!!

You should speak out and get a positive president that can create a positive image of the US, the way you peaople are !!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Harald N

 

[OttoMatic]

We are not wasting lives and to say so is so disrespectful it makes me sick

Sorry, didn't mean to say we're "wasting" lives.

we are now(finally) bringing the fight to them on their own turf. It is not a country we are fighting either, it's Islamic extremist.

Bush speak. 1) Iraq was a soverign country. 2) It was a secular country. 3) I don't think Al Qaeda was there before we came in. 4) Why didn't we go into Syria or Saudi Arabia, where there is/was more anti-American sentiment and Islamic extremism?

We just so happened to remove a vile dictator in the process.

Great. I've already argued that the US isn't in the business of simply "helping" those in need by removing dictators or other lame leaders.

Don't use the military as a scape goat either

I didn't even come close, and the implication "makes me sick". Lame.

retention is higher now than it was in 2003

Really?

We know what we signed up for and the dangers involved.

Yeah, I'm sure not everyone in the military feels that way.

 

[OttoMatic]

The reason I asked the question about Bill Clinton not doing anything when the Trade Center was bombed the 'First' time.
I wondered if you were as vocal with your criticism of Bill Clinton?
I also wonder if Clinton did 'step up'; would we be in the mess we are now?

Maybe he should have, but as we all know, it was a different world back then. Hindsight is easy, right?

Believe me, if Bill Clinton or Al Gore were invading Iraq, the pro-Iraq-war crowd would be singing a different tune right now, would they not?

 

[Halon451]

B.T.W. The forst World Trade Center attack was not even remotely connected to 9/11, In my humble opinion

Islamic terrorism is Islamic terrorism - the intention of the 1993 attack was in every single way identical to the eventual outcome of 9/11. These are madmen, and they are ALL connected by their twisted belief system, period.

I think it's unfair to say that Clinton didn't do enough.... At that time the US had more goodwill because the US presdident was not trying to force his opinions through, by brute force, or call it war....

Read on, this is just getting good...

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published. None has been refuted by Clinton.

After the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, then President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed five U.S. military personnel, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.

After the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, which killed 19 and injured 200 U.S. military personnel, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.


After the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa , which killed 224 and injured 5,000, President Clinton promised that those responsible would be hunted down and punished.


After the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole, which killed 17 and injured 39 US. sailors, President Clinton promised that those responsible be hunted down and punished.

Do the numbers in bold make you as sick as I feel? Do they make you as angry as I am? So when we were attacked 9/11/2001, and a relatively newly inaugurated President Bush took our country immediately to war - there is a definitive night and day difference.

It took Bush (like him or hate him) to realize that we had been at war already for the better part of the past decade, and we just kept taking the punches, grinning and going NOTHING about it. If that doesn't make you feel disgusted, then I don't know what would.

War is as much a part of this world as the elements that comprise it - fact. I never said I liked it, but here in our country at least, there are still a few of us who realize that our way of life comes with a price, and it is in no way, shape or form a guarantee.

How many of you naysayers (okay besides you Haraldo, ) have actually been outside the US? Do you even have any perspective on the world outside US borders other than what you see on TV? I would have to hazard a guess that no - you do not, therefore all you have is the same old tired left-wing rhetoric; meanwhile you casually sip your Starbucks and enjoy evening Prime time TV, knowing you and your family are safe and secure in your house in the suburbs where the biggest worry in your lives are soaring fuel prices. I hope to god that it stays that way, believe me.

Haraldo, you seem like a nice gentleman yourself - please excuse my morning rant, but I've long ago become disgusted by so much anti-American sentiment from within our own borders. If people don't like it here - a.) hang yourself now and put yourself out of your own sad misery or b.) leave.

I am a patriot. That means I do not tuck my god d**m tail between my legs at the first sign of trouble and rally behind my country's decisions to fight a war we need to fight in order to survive as the nation we are. Step down off your high horses gentlemen - this is indeed war, and it takes the guts to realize that what you have comes at a price and our soldiers out on the field deserve every single bit of respect you can afford to show them. You owe them (and those who came before them) everything you have. Remember that. We cannot just give up our arms, sit around a campfire and sing Kum-ba-ya in times like these.

We went into Iraq for good reason - and Bush did not lie about anything (oh my god, if I had a nickel for every time I've heard that one). It was clear that WMD were present in the country and that Saddam posed a significant threat to our well-being, and especially those countries immediately around Iraq. This is, was and has always been a continuation of the battle that THEY started long before 9/11 even took place.

Maybe some of you are simply in denial and too scared to actually face the facts as they are, so it's easier to blame the Administration?

Maybe he should have, but as we all know, it was a different world back then. Hindsight is easy, right?

Yes it is, but hindsight doesn't bring back lost lives Otto - had we a President in place who actually understood the threats that faced us back then - it's called foresight and vision - we would be in a different place now I believe. Clinton was too busy getting his d*** sucked in the Oval office to care. End of story.

 

[haraldo]

Read on, this is just getting good...

Yes, this is very good, and thanks for the compliment )

The attacks make me fell sick and disgusted, no matter if it's one person being killed or many thousands. It is indeed a war going on every day almost everywhere and also within the borders of the US.

Some of the terrorists claim the US use of force as an argument for attacking US properties... However, I believe that so many of those that scream propaganda against US don't know what they're talking about, their living standards are so low that they need someone to hate and blame...

No matter what, US would be blamed, if it wasn't for the use of Armed forces, it would be something else.

The Norwegian embassy in Damaskus (Syria) was burnt to the ground and all employees had to flee the Country to Safety. The offense was just the printing of an anti-islamic cartoon, originally from a Danish paper. This is also war, and most western countries are affected...

Think about the Norwegian oil installations in the North sea, not necessarily difficult targets, one hit at a major installation may have adverse effects on oil or gas deliveries for both EU and the US., and don't even think about the consequences on the oil prices... At a point in time Norway was the second largest oil exporter in the world (Now we're down to around 3M barrels each day), this also makes us a potential target, anyone may be a target. And this is probably what terrorism is about. To create FEAR and INSECURITY

Something I have never understood about US / Canada, how can you call anything the world series when there's in fact only two countries involved? Is that relevant to your view of the world?

I'm happy that I'm not a president or prime minister, because whatever they do, the decisions are wrong and will be criticized by people like ourselves.....

Regards

Harald N

 

[Halon451]

The attacks make me fell sick and disgusted, no matter if it's one person being killed or many thousands. It is indeed a war going on every day almost everywhere and also within the borders of the US.

True indeed - except for the most part it's a war of words amongst ourselves within the US. Still, words are powerful when turned into propaganda, and can potentially have wider sweeping ill-effects than a single bomb ever could.

Some of the terrorists claim the US use of force as an argument for attacking US properties... However, I believe that so many of those that scream propaganda against US don't know what they're talking about, their living standards are so low that they need someone to hate and blame...

Good point - I remember walking through the streets of Chania on the island of Crete (Greece), and everywhere I turned, anti-American graffiti was splayed everywhere, on the walls, on fences, concrete dividers, you name it. But, the funny thing is - when you meet and talk to the citizens they are as nice as can be. I thought to myself, "Why of all people in the world, do these people hate us?" Then I noticed their quality of life...

Think about the Norwegian oil installations in the North sea, not necessarily difficult targets, one hit at an installation may have adverse effects on oil or gas deliveries for both EU and the US., and don't even think about the consequences on the oil prices... At a point in time Norway was the second largest oil exporter in the world, this also makes us a potential target, anyone may be a target. And this is what terrorism is about. To create FEAR and INSECURITY

Well, actually it wouldn't even take that much, as history has proven time and again. Someone sneezes in the wind in Saudi Arabia these days and prices skyrocket at the pump. I shudder to think at the possibility of facing a real crisis one of these days, much like we did back in the 70's. If the same thing happened today I would hate to see the reaction.

And terrorists create fear and insecurity based on the acts they commit, not merely the propaganda they present. Real fear and real insecurity comes at the price of a loss of life, tragedy and chaos. And it's as real as it gets, never knowing when you are going to become the next target. 3,000 some odd people on 9/11 certainly didn't ever think they would become a target when they kissed their families good bye for just another anticipated routine day at the office.

Something I have never understood about US / Canada, how can you call anything the world series when there's in fact only two countries involved? Is that relevant to your view of the world?

Ha! I've got no come back for that one... your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Rickster71]

Think about the Norwegian oil installations in the North sea, not necessarily difficult targets, one hit at a major installation may have adverse effects on oil or gas deliveries for both EU and the US., and don't even think about the consequences on the oil prices... At a point in time Norway was the second largest oil exporter in the world (Now we're down to around 3M barrels each day), this also makes us a potential target, anyone may be a target. And this is probably what terrorism is about. To create FEAR and INSECURITY

Are you suggesting that Norway should protect and defend her oil supplies? (don't mean to put words in your mouth)
If so, be prepared for the ridicule your country will face for 'Going To War for Oil'
Of course the accusations will be from those, who know nothing of history, politics, economics, psychology, or sociolgy.

 

[haraldo]

Well, actually it wouldn't even take that much, as history has proven time and again. Someone sneezes in the wind in Saudi Arabia these days and prices skyrocket at the pump. I shudder to think at the possibility of facing a real crisis one of these days, much like we did back in the 70's. If the same thing happened today I would hate to see the reaction.

Actually, this serves us extremely well in this country, we live well from the high oil prices that come from that fear and insecurity, so we are actually making a gain on these terrorists... I'm not talking about small gains, the revenues are gigantic (Like US$ 10 Billion/month)...... And there are oil traders out there now claiming we will be targeting a stable crude oil price much more than $100/barrel, perhaps as high as $130, which will serve us even better in this country...

Still I would much much rather see a better world and low oil prices

 

[haraldo]

Are you suggesting that Norway should protect and defend her oil supplies? (don't mean to put words in your mouth)
If so, be prepared for the ridicule your country will face for 'Going To War for Oil'
Of course the accusations will be from those, who know nothing of history, politics, economics, psychology, or sociolgy.

Well Yes, but by means of protecting ourselves, by using whatever means necessary to protect against attack...

All applicable oil installations are within Norwegian territory, which means we have the right to protect the installations......

This is very difficult indeed... There were a situation some few months back in time where some Russian battleships were getting really close to an installation in the North Sea, so close that a total shutdown of the platform was ordered... We can't attack a Russian battleship in Norwegian territory... Consequences, don't even think about it...

I'm not sure which means are at hand, and for security reasons that's not official, but there are a range of F-16 jets standby, and Yes, I think it's the duty of the Navy and Air forces to protect the installations by defending our territory, but not by means of entering another country......

I believe the US is in their full rights to protect and defend oil supplies in another country if it happens with that country's approval.... Like Kuwait

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

I hope this is not stepping over the line.........

While we are sitting around here wondering what we can do to increase our living-standard by 0.001% and we are complaining and nitpicking about issues that are like ripples on the ocean... The interest rate is too high... the interest rate is too low... My God how expensive the gas is by now... I can only go to restaurants three days a week, it's just terrible, I can't afford anything anymore... The hi-fi stuff is too expensive... The world is coming to and end because CD's are compressed... DRM is killing me…

These are merely ripples on the water and hardly anything that matters in the great perspective.

While we complain about nothingness, people out there are being shot dead and murdered and slaughtered... Their offence is stating their opinion against a regime that's possibly more violent than anything we have seen for a long time. What does the public do? Nothing, we don't even care because it doesn't affect the US or EU economy.
Is it so that we only care when it directly affects our economy?

On September 27 1987, about 150-200 lay people and 26 monks demonstrated in the street of Lhasa. They were peacefully shouting "Tibet is independent" and asking the Chinese to quit Tibet. However, the Chinese Security Forces arrested 36 demonstrators, including monks. This was followed by a series of other demonstrations. An estimated crowd of 2000 Tibetan people gathered in front of Jokhang Temple in Lhasa during one such demonstration. The Chinese police brutally beat Tibetan monks and many Tibetans were killed mercilessly. One monk was beaten to death inside the police station that aroused more demonstrators to join in. These demonstrators snatched and burned the guns of the Chinese instead of using against them. The International Communities were a witness to this height of Non-Violence in action by the Tibetans against the extreme brutality of the Chinese Army.

Now things are seriously escalating in Tibet again and the Chinese are blaming Dalai Lama about the violence. When is this going to stop.

Tibet is not, have never been and will never be Chinese territory. The Chinese have illegally invaded another country and retains a terror regime that's possibly worse than anything the world has ever seen.
The Nobel committee awarded the Peace Price to Dalai Lama for his non violent work, what has happened before or after this… When did George W. Bush ever speak up to the liberty of a people that's unlawfully been under occupation since 1951?

We have an obligation to speak up and say that this is not acceptable!

One thing we may do is to support team Tibet to get to the Chinese olympic games...
http://supportteamtibet.org/

Regards

Harald N

Maybe the "Peoples Republic of Norway" should grow some balls and stand up for those in Tibet? I agree the Chinese should be removed from the territory, but what is your solution? The USA? What is your point??? We all know how the European nanny states react to such intervention........and it ain't pretty.

 

[haraldo]

Maybe the "Peoples Republic of Norway" should grow some balls and stand up for those in Tibet? I agree the Chinese should be removed from the territory, but what is your solution? The USA? What is your point??? We all know how the European nanny states react to such intervention........and it ain't pretty.

Do you believe a country with 4.5 million people can make an impact on China?
And actually Norway is not a republic.....

What's my point? I'm surprised by such a question....
You don't care about human rights being broken and people being killed without any reason? Or are you only concerned about what happens within your neighborhood?

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

B.T.W. The forst World Trade Center attack was not even remotely connected to 9/11,

It's true...

The first WTC attack was NOT funded by al Qaeda...nor did we Muslims have any involvement.....


Regards...

K.S.M.

 

[Davemcc]

I believe the US is in their full rights to protect and defend oil supplies in another country if it happens with that country's approval.... Like Kuwait

Ding, Ding, Ding...You just said the magic mystery word of the day. Kuwait.

The first Gulf War was fought with a United Nations mandate to expel Saddam's forces from Kuwait. That war ended with an agreement by Saddam agreeing to certain conditions, most of which he ignored and repeatedly violated. Further to these violations, Saddam continued to re-build his military to prepare for another conflict.

The Second Gulf War was a direct result of these violations and could have been avoided by Saddam's compliance to any one of several U.N. resolutions. The Iraq war is still technically being done under a U.N. mandate, but without the support of key allies like France and Russia, which is no surprise since they were complicit in some of Saddam's violations of the U.N. imposed conditions (never mind the diplomatic/strategic gains France had hoped to achieve by defying the U.S.). The timing of the Second Gulf War was moved ahead due to the threat of WMD's, absolutely. That none were found is irrelevant. Not only did the U.S. believe Saddam was building a WMD program, the French also believed he had WMD's and so did the U.N. Hell, even Hillary Clinton believed at the time that Saddam had WMD's and supported the war. I also suggest to you that the nations arguing that Saddam had WMD's knew for a fact that he had WMD's because 1) he used them on his own citizens and 2) these nations SOLD him the components to create WMD's in the first place. The question is not "did Saddam have WMD's"? We know he did. The question is "where did Saddam's WMD's go"?

On another note, somebody said that the U.S. was out of Afghanistan which is not entirely correct. If I am not mistaken, the 101st Airborne and the 10th Mountain division are still there, along with a sizable force from Canada's PPCLI.

 

[jinjuku]

Otto and Joe Schmoe,
I'm very disappointed in most politicians, from both sides of the aisle.
With that being said;

do you think Clinton should've done more when the Trade Centers were bombed the 'First' time?

I wonder what the difference is between not doing enough (Clinton), and doing too much in the wrong direction based on a set of calculated obfuscations (Bush)?

Even if Clinton was more aggressive with prosecuting the first Trade Center bombing, I am not so sure it wouldn't have happened a second time.

I am with Joe and Otto on this. Halon is sounding like a mouth piece for the right as much as he is accusing Joe and Otto of being a broken record for the left.

To argue that Iraq is no more than a vendetta, that the administration truly believed what they were telling the people that they are sworn to serve (you know, us the American citizen) really places you beyond credibility.

We are in the worst shape we are in because of Bush and his policies. Not 9/11. Two distinct matters that need to be considered and handled on their own merits.

 

[jinjuku]

We are not wasting lives and to say so is so disrespectful it makes me sick, we are now(finally) bringing the fight to them on their own turf. It is not a country we are fighting either, it's Islamic extremist. We just so happened to remove a vile dictator in the process.

Don't use the military as a scape goat either, it's an all volunteered force and has been for 30+ years, retention is higher now than it was in 2003. We know what we signed up for and the dangers involved.

If you are going to make that argument then the time, money, lives of service personnel would have been spent in Afghanistan and Iran.

 

[jinjuku]

I have no problem making a statement to countries that harbor and provide aid to the nut jobs that pulled off 9/11 and all these other attacks against the U.S.

We are the top dog out there and that is what people figuratively and literally 'shoot' for. If Bush would have come to us stating the truth as to why we needed to remove Saddam, instead of mixing truth and half-truths in. I would have been fine with that. What I detest is the lies that we went in on. Not the fact that we did.

If the entire thing was to:

1. Remove Saddam
2. Establish a stable government that is there to serve her peoples
3. Set an example for other regimes that seem to think you can throw reason out the window and run everything with religious rule and it's ok to host those that would do us harm.

I would have been fine with that. You have to have credibility in the eyes of the world. Once you have been caught in a lie, kinda hard to seem credible. You have to remain beyond reproach.

We have our own government to blame (Bill Clinton) for the escalation in the brazenness that extremest felt they could rise too. We should have dropped the hammer in Somalia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia. Those governments should have been held solely responsible for what happened to our sovereign interests there.

 

[haraldo]

I have no problem making a statement to countries that harbor and provide aid to the nut jobs that pulled off 9/11 and all these other attacks against the U.S.

I don't only see 9/11 as an attack against the U.S. but an attack against the whole civilized world.

Of course, it's easy to criticize all the European countries about not doing enough, but you cannot resolve all of this merely by armed forces. Many small countries in Europe provide a lot of resources and financial support to countries that really need assistance....
- Well, you need to hunt down the bad guys and get rid of them, period!!
- You need to do something with living conditions for people in many countries, if people live well and you increase the living standards, much of the foundation for terrorism may come to an end. If people live well, they won't bother to blow themselves up with a bomb in a public place.....

So we need to provide aid AND use armed forces....

 

[haraldo]

On another note, somebody said that the U.S. was out of Afghanistan which is not entirely correct. If I am not mistaken, the 101st Airborne and the 10th Mountain division are still there, along with a sizable force from Canada's PPCLI.

There's still a whole bunch of countries in Afghanistan as part af a UN based operation. I also think that most European countries are present there at the moment. Main goal to protect local residents and make sure that law and order persists....

 

[majorloser]

Open Mouth, Insert Foot

If you are going to make that argument then the time, money, lives of service personnel would have been spent in Afghanistan and Iran.

I'd think SSG Clayton has a better idea of what's going on over there than you do.
And he's on his way back for a third tour.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39942

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41016

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21070

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31019

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31520

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21977