What constitutes 'High-end'?

[bpape]

To me, high end is a set of products that deliver that last 5-10% in performance. Now, many of these are very expensive. Some are not. Then again, expensive is a relative term that is different for everyone.

As an example, a pair of Totem Mani II's is about as good as you'll get from a bookshelf sized monitor. Price is < $5k per pair. They get you 99% of the way to totallly doing everything right in a speaker - extension, control, imaging, balance, etc. Next 'up' in the line are the Winds. While very nice speakers and more expensive, I personally don't think they're as good as the Mani's. Does that make them not high end?

I also think the context in which a component is used determines if it is truly high end. For instance, the Lexicon MC12 is a FINE HT processor that IMO suffers when used as a 2 channel preamp. A top of the line Crown pro amp is great for pro audio work or to run a subwoofer but IMO would not be considered high end running a set of mains in a stereo arrangement.

How about a set of Martin Logan CLS's. High end? For 2 channel or multi-channel music - sure. For HT use where you have to cover 6-8 seats? Not in my book.

 

[miklorsmith]

State of the Art

Great thread, PantsFastener!

I think of high end strictly from a performance basis. One could achieve this by spending lots of dough on big names that are sure to be excellent. Or one could critically ask how to achieve similar success while trimming budget.

I'm a 2-channel guy, so it's a little easier for me - I don't need as many parts. But, with new speakers on order, I believe I'll have a rig competitive with just about anything on the planet for around $15k. I don't think it could be done much, or any, cheaper. Hint - 2/3 of the total is in the speakers.

 

[Dapper Dan]

The Mathematical solution;

High End = (perceived sound - actual sound obtained) ^2 x Cost
(Depth of your pocket x -W.A.F)​

Plain text solution;

What you “think you are getting” minus what you “really are getting” (as most audiophiles will usually believe they hear things that are not there, but because we believe we are listening to High End, they therefore must hear them) that’s the power of 2 (or should that be logarithmic depending on how much the product cost’s?) all over how much money you wish you could/would like to spend multiplied buy the handbrake, sorry I meant to say spouse, who is more often than not, negative to any further Audio/Video equipment entering the house.

Thus the result is, what ever you are comfortable affording and happy to live with, will be High End!

All jokes aside… my 15 year old son has a Yamaha RXV-440 powering some Tannoy FX 5.1 speakers, with a pioneer DVD player into a Sharp 16X9 CRT TV, with X-box plugged in, and all of his 15 year old friends think he has they coolest high end system…of anyone they know!


Just because a product requires a second mortgage, is not enough to justify something as high end. Most high end gear use parts from OEM/ODM manufactures and whilst they try to make improvements to the products, they do not necessarily succeed, case in point; The Lexicon RT-20 shares the same basic internals as the Pioneer Elite - DV-59AVi (best I can determine) and generally speaking, they both suffer similar strengths and weaknesses. However, the RT-20 costs $3500 whilst DV-59 cost $1600.

What then makes the Lexicon high end as I would not have said the DV-59 was “high end”? (Apologies to Lexicon and Pioneer as no malicious intent is implied)

For what its worth, if you spend more time listening and viewing rather than having to justify the cost of something as high end, you will increase your satisfaction with what ever you choose. That should be your reference to high end, not cost or marketing hype.



Cheers...

Dapper Dan...

 

[Buckle-meister]

Great thread, PantsFastener!

Kilts do not require pants.

Regards

 

[scorrpio]

'High end' is deeply subjective. To me, high end point is when you no longer hear the difference. This, of course, greatly depends on where and how the equipment is being used. What is high-end for a regular living room is totally unacceptable for a recording studio.

 

[Buckle-meister]

To me, high end point is when you no longer hear the difference.

I like this statement. Nice and simple, and takes account of the law of diminishing returns.

This, of course, greatly depends on where and how the equipment is being used.

And just how golden one's ears are!

Regards

 

[j_garcia]

High end to me is the stuff I would like to own that I can't afford. When I upgrade to it, then there is always something else that is better....

That being said, I'm already very happy with what I have. I have no near term plans to upgrade anything.

 

[mustang_steve]

To me there are 4 categories:

sound: boombox, most shelf systems, etc

low-fi: low-end receivers, etc. These are those systems you built up in college with $400, some gas, and a best buy....and you ended up with massive tower speakers, some shiny plastic reciever, and a 5-disc no-name cd changer.

mid-fi: budget quality is the best description. You reached the stuff that most people think is expensive, but when they hear it, they agree it was cash well spent. In general any good quality 2-channel setup under a grand can easily fall into this.

hi-fi: the deep end of the pool...most people, even if they love the sound, will still think you are crazy for spending that much. Like dropping $5k on an RBH speaker set. To most people, that's a good portion of a payment on a nice car....to an audionut, it's just another brick in the wall

....there is a point of diminishing returns though...but whether it is worth going past that is up to you, and you only.

 

[BostonMark]

another definition

To me, high end is that point at which you have invested more in your audio sytem to get that "live in concert, club, recording studio" than you would have spent to actually get season tickets to the opera, the symphony, tickets to all the local rock club shows, jazz shows, blues shows and actually hear that live sound which you were trying to achieve in the first place.

 

[mtrycrafts]

To me, high end is that point at which you have invested more in your audio sytem to get that "live in concert, club, recording studio" than you would have spent to actually get season tickets to the opera, the symphony, tickets to all the local rock club shows, jazz shows, blues shows and actually hear that live sound which you were trying to achieve in the first place.

That's a pretty good explanation

 

[mulester7]

To me, high end is that point at which you have invested more in your audio sytem to get that "live in concert, club, recording studio" than you would have spent to actually get season tickets to the opera, the symphony, tickets to all the local rock club shows, jazz shows, blues shows and actually hear that live sound which you were trying to achieve in the first place.

....haha....correct....guys, you drop 5-7 thousand in the right places to compliment a quality pre-pro surround receiver, and you can have 99.5% of what guys who drop 35-50 thousand on seperate after seperate have, along the lines of full-range sound quality, and I believe that....

 

[Shadowx28]

To me, high end is the top-ten highest quality, and also quite loud (I mean come on if it plays amazingly well, but you can barely hear it you can't consider it high-end) coponents. Of course some things are exceptions, such as cables. For me almost all cables that are not what your speakers come with are considered high-end, because how much higher can you get? I was reading something that Forbes magazine did and someone bought a set of 360,000.00 speakers. I really don't know if that was a whole HT system or just speakers, but either way I would automatically think that that is high-end. I could be completly wrong about this, because in some cases if you have a nice name, and above-average things, you can sell things for extremely high-prices. Also there is a level of sound and video where you can't tell a difference. Once you get that high, there is no "high-end." Its just all "Amazingly well made speakers and coponents."

 

[shokhead]

I think LOUD is very low in the factor.

 

[Xenobeast]

High End

Good Japanese engineering!

 

[Shadowx28]

I think LOUD is very low in the factor.

Well, i mean it has to be resonably loud...it has to be able to immerse you with enough volume, that you can believe that your in the scene, or music hall. It doesn't have to so loud that it hurts your hearing, but loud enough.

 

[hifiman]

Yeah, I don't think loud has anything to do with high-end. If you want loud you could get a fairly cheap DJ setup and blow out an eardrum, but it's not even close to quality sound.

 

[jaxvon]

One mark of a hi-end system is the ability to play loud without you noticing. When your speakers and amps are all up to snuff, the sound is amazing. You can play your system at what seems like a reasonable volume (no pain, just immersion). The issue comes when you try to talk and you can't hear yourself . This is one of the coolest experiences when playing with high-end gear. You go to talk to someone, sing along, or just say something out loud....and it seems like nothing comes out! The sound is so clear and pure that it isn't painful to listen to at loud levels.

 

[WmAx]

One mark of a hi-end system is the ability to play loud without you noticing. When your speakers and amps are all up to snuff, the sound is amazing. You can play your system at what seems like a reasonable volume (no pain, just immersion). The issue comes when you try to talk and you can't hear yourself . This is one of the coolest experiences when playing with high-end gear. You go to talk to someone, sing along, or just say something out loud....and it seems like nothing comes out! The sound is so clear and pure that it isn't painful to listen to at loud levels.

I don't care what the sound source is[live orchestra, for example], high SPL hurts my ears if it lasts more than a couple of seconds! Maybe you are going deaf?

A good hi-fi set up should produce sufficient SPLs for realistic reproduction with typical high quality recordings and in the process it should not produce noticable levels of THD, compression or modular phase distortion. These are the main issues to be concerned with at moderate to high SPLs. But this seems to be a non-issue with most high quality full range 3 or more way floor stand type speakers on the market today.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

A good hi-fi set up should produce sufficient SPLs for realistic reproduction with typical high quality recordings and in the process it should not produce noticable levels of THD, compression or modular phase distortion. These are the main issues to be concerned with at moderate to high SPLs. But this seems to be a non-issue with most high quality full range 3 or more way floor stand type speakers on the market today.

-Chris

......WmAx, that last sentence confuses me a little....wouldn't modular phase distortion stand to be found most with 3-4-5 way speakers?....wouldn't this bring particular emphasis on the quality and effectiveness of the crossovers?.....

 

[mulester7]

Well, i mean it has to be resonably loud...it has to be able to immerse you with enough volume, that you can believe that your in the scene, or music hall. It doesn't have to so loud that it hurts your hearing, but loud enough.

.....Shadow, you're saying the same thing Jaxvon said, that Buck said a long time ago....high end equipment is geared toward reference levels as their forte', imo, and even fairly loud, it's not offensive or ear piercing.....