What constitutes 'High-end'?

[jaxvon]

But it isn't all about being loud, it's also about being soft, as well as dynamic. A good hi-fi system be able to reproduce music well at a soft level and still convey the feeling of the music. But, like many others, I belive that music should be listened to at a volume that is realistic of a live showing. That volume is dependent on the genre. Even live acoustic jazz is fairly loud.

Well, I'm babbling. The point is, if your system transports you off into music-land when you fire it up, then you've hit the mark.

 

[WmAx]

......WmAx, that last sentence confuses me a little....wouldn't modular phase distortion stand to be found most with 3-4-5 way speakers?....wouldn't this bring particular emphasis on the quality and effectiveness of the crossovers?.....

Phase modulation distortion is reduced when the bandwidth reproduced over that driver is reduced. With a 3 way speaker, for example, the bandwidth would be restrained to a narrow range of frequencies as compared to a 2 way speaker, thus being less subject to audible levels of phase modulation[a.k.a. doppler] distortion. However, a 5 way or even 4 way speaker is not usually[some special circumstances may exist in some certain designs that are not usual] required to minimize this distortion in practial hi-fidelity use. A well engineered 3 way system is almost always sufficient. Such distortion would usually only be found on 2 way speakers where the midrange is also the woofer, and this driver is moving a sufficient distance in full range use[for example a 6.5" midwoofer would have to have signficant movement in full range use at moderate to high SPLs] for this distortion to occur at a magnitude that becomes audible.

I think that what are you referring to so far as the crossover system is phase distortion, not phase modulation distortion. Phase distortion is the deviation in ideal target phase response of the system. Phase modulation distortion is a different subject.

-Chris

 

[hunnybunny2383]

I think that we should leave the cost factor out of the high-end question and look at it from a performance point of view. I mean none of us go to the store and say "Hey that $30.00 speaker system is real good it sounds just like my $3,000 system." If we did we'd be the biggest collection of idiots on the face of the planet. I mean who spends $3,000 on a system that sounds the same as the one for $30.00. That being said I would consider high end as any A/V system that takes you from watching a t.v. or listening to speakers to being their be it $30.00 or $3,000 because the amount you spend is totally up to you.

 

[mulester7]

Phase modulation distortion is reduced when the bandwidth reproduced over that driver is reduced. With a 3 way speaker, for example, the bandwidth would be restrained to a narrow range of frequencies as compared to a 2 way speaker

-Chris

.....so there stands to be less phase modulation distortion when there are more elements in the enclosure, and each element is assigned less of the total frequency response to reproduce, I see....although, I see 2-way speakers as the best chance for transparency from the low-mids up as the two elements speak as one voice....I see the most modern versions of the 2-way concept as being what I want in a system....that can make for a weakness in the lows as the usually smaller woofer works for midrange effects, but what is gained in the low-mids up pleases me most, and puts me in an attitude of looking for help below.....WmAx, do you have preferences between 2 and 3 way?.......

 

[WmAx]

I see....although, I see 2-way speakers as the best chance for transparency from the low-mids up as the two elements speak as one voice....

Transparency is not a straightfoward subject, since in definition, even a very small difference that would require instant switching in blinded conditions[the most sensitive method for accurate differiantation] could be said to be not transparent. However, consider a 4th order crossover used on a speaker. It would cause phase distortion of audible magnitude if blind tested and compared on a speaker in an anechoic chamber or on reasonably high quality headphones. However, the difference would be very subtle[not even noticable with reliability without the use of quick switching and blind testing] and only show up on specific samples with substantial sharp transients. The use of a crossover that did not produce a magnitude of phase shift that was audible[for example a 1st order system] would have to make substantial compromises in critical parameters that are of much higher priority as compared to the typical phase distortion, such as the polar[off axis] response and require a more expensive and complex crossover to compensate for the linear distortion(s) of the drivers as they are attenuated very gradually past fc[crossover point].

below.....WmAx, do you have preferences between 2 and 3 way?.......

I am not aware of a 2 way system that meets my criteria[bandwidth, spl, modulation phase distortion and polar response] for full range sound reproduction. At minimum, a 3 way system is required to fulfill my criteria. BTW, a 2 way speaker that is crossed over actively to a subwoofer system qualifies as a 3 way system. In many cases a 2 way speaker system can be improved substantially via this method.

-Chris

 

[jaxvon]

Chris, on this note, does Vandersteen, to your knowledge, exhibit good polar response and low distortion? I know that Vandersteen uses a 1st-order crossover design in his loudspeakers to ensure phase coherence.

 

[WmAx]

Chris, on this note, does Vandersteen, to your knowledge, exhibit good polar response and low distortion? I know that Vandersteen uses a 1st-order crossover design in his loudspeakers to ensure phase coherence.

Vandersteen speakers exhibit poor power response throughout the upper midrange and lower treble band[the bands which the tweeter and midrange are transitioning], as is to be expected with a 1st order system with drivers radiating from different locations in space relative to the wavelengths. This behaviour will reduce the width of the sweet spot for listening as well as it will require additional room treatments to reduce the contribution of the off-axis output, since the off-axis output does not match the on-axis output, which will cause a loss of percieved sound quality according to credible pereptual research.

The only 1st order multi-way speakers of which I'm aware that have virtually solved this problem are manufactured by Theile; they use a co-axial midrange/tweeter assembly which virtually radiates the mid and high range from the same point in space. However, such minimal phase distortion has not been shown to be audibly substantial for high fidelity sound reproduction. In order to achieve minimal phase distortion, the cost and complexity of the system is increased.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

BTW, a 2 way speaker that is crossed over actively to a subwoofer system qualifies as a 3 way system. In many cases a 2 way speaker system can be improved substantially via this method.

-Chris

.....Chris, how about a 2-way main's regiment cut at 120, sealed-enclosure 10 inch small cannons from 120 to 50, and mini-barns taking it from 50 down?.....

 

[WmAx]

.....Chris, how about a 2-way main's regiment cut at 120, sealed-enclosure 10 inch small cannons from 120 to 50, and mini-barns taking it from 50 down?.....

So long as the 10" 'small cannons' are a pair, and one is located in very close proximity to each main speaker, and a capable and precision active line-level crossover is used, properly set-up, that should work fine. Of course, now you will have a 4 way speaker system....

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

So long as the 10" 'small cannons' are a pair, and one is located in very close proximity to each main speaker, and a capable and precision active line-level crossover is used, properly set-up, that should work fine. Of course, now you will have a 4 way speaker system....

-Chris

....the small cannons will sit on the mini-barns just inside of the mains, which also sit on the outside ends of the mini-barns....the small cannons will be governed by a Behringer 2496, and the bottom will already have been cut once at 50, sending the signal to the Behringer from the Paradigm X-30 variable outputs....yes, it will be a 4-way system with steep rolloffs everywhere....thanks, Chris....it's obvious you have been into this stuff for awhile....excellent job of putting things more on our level....99% of us here have mechanical abilities turning knobs and tweaking things....past changing a fuse, we're limited on the insides of this stuff....but we all have ears, and need to apply that fact with confidence....you're a good man, Chris.....

 

[WmAx]

....the small cannons will sit on the mini-barns just inside of the mains, which also sit on the outside ends of the mini-barns....the small cannons will be governed by a Behringer 2496, and the bottom will already have been cut once at 50, sending the signal to the Behringer from the Paradigm X-30 variable outputs....yes, it will be a 4-way system with steep rolloffs everywhere....

Ditch the X-30 if you have a Behringer DCX2496. The X-30 is a toy compared to the DCX2496 and will probably hinder the performance with it's 3rd order slopes and all around lack of precision, adjustments and capability compared to the DCX2496. I highly recommend that you route to all amps directly from the DCX2496[DCX-->Mains: DCX-->Cannons: DCX-->Mini-barns], but due to the pro output levels of the DCX2496, I would suggest placing potentiometers[unless you have pro level XLR inputs on your amplifiers] between the amplifier inputs and DCX2496 outputs to reduce the line level voltage and provide more flexibility for channel trimming.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

Ditch the X-30 if you have a Behringer DCX2496. The X-30 is a toy compared to the DCX2496 and will probably hinder the performance with it's 3rd order slopes and all around lack of precision, adjustments and capability compared to the DCX2496. I highly recommend that you route to all amps directly from the DCX2496[DCX-->Mains: DCX-->Cannons: DCX-->Mini-barns], but due to the pro output levels of the DCX2496, I would suggest placing potentiometers[unless you have pro level XLR inputs on your amplifiers] between the amplifier inputs and DCX2496 outputs to reduce the line level voltage and provide more flexibility for channel trimming.

-Chris

....well, I'm currently cutting the top of the mini-barns with the Paradigm X-30, and the rolloff is 18db....that's a pretty good rolloff for the 50-80 range....can one Behringer 2496 cut both ends of the small cannons, the top of the mini-barns, and the bottom of the main's regiment?....and yes, my amps have XLR female inputs, although I'm not using them....but I could.....

 

[WmAx]

....well, I'm currently cutting the top of the mini-barns with the Paradigm X-30, and the rolloff is 18db....that's a pretty good rolloff for the 50-80 range....can one Behringer 2496 cut both ends of the small cannons, the top of the mini-barns, and the bottom of the main's regiment?....and yes, my amps have XLR female inputs, although I'm not using them....but I could.....

The Behringer DCX2496 can fully control/shape/manipulate the signal to each of the seperate speakers as is required for optimal sound quality, and as you have specified. The DCX2496 has six fully configurable output channels.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

The Behringer DCX2496 can fully control/shape/manipulate the signal to each of the seperate speakers as is required for optimal sound quality, and as you have specified. The DCX2496 has six fully configurable output channels.

-Chris

.....boys, I'm home....anybody need a Paradigm X-30 cheap?, haha....Chris, where do I get the cables for going from the Behringer to the XLR inputs of the amps?....let's see, fronts, rears, surrounds, centers, small cannons, mini-barns....that's six.....

 

[WmAx]

.....boys, I'm home....anybody need a Paradigm X-30 cheap?, haha....Chris, where do I get the cables for going from the Behringer to the XLR inputs of the amps?....let's see, fronts, rears, surrounds, centers, small cannons, mini-barns....that's six.....

If you are also running center channel and surrounds, you will need to add an additional DCX2496, because you will need 9 total channels in this case. The DCX has 3 input channels. Therefor it will facilitate 2 surrounds and a center channel input. Multiple DCX2496 units can be connected together via an ethernet cable and one can be used for the master control device while the other(s) are used as slave units. This is to simplify setup/control to a single unit while taking advantage of the physical power of multiple units.

You can purchase the required cables at a professional music supply store or via online vendors such as www.zzounds.com , www.musiciansfriend.com , or others.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

If you are also running center channel and surrounds, you will need to add an additional DCX2496, because you will need 9 total channels in this case.

-Chris

....but if the mains, centers, (two), (mono), surrounds, and rears are cut at 120, can't I do some Y'ing and use one unit?....

 

[mulester7]

.....Chris, this is a lot hitting my mind at one time....and, the buffet at KFC closes in an hour, haha....I'll be back.......

 

[mulester7]

.....well, Chris either didn't care too much for the Y'ing notion, or his woman put a skillet upside his head and he's out cold....hmmmm, let's see, three inputs....that would be full-range left, full-range right, and mono full-range....six outputs, not sure, but am wide open for suggestions.....

 

[WmAx]

....but if the mains, centers, (two), (mono), surrounds, and rears are cut at 120, can't I do some Y'ing and use one unit?....

You would be using 2 input channels[Left and Right from preamplifier] to the 1st DCX2496. From these two channels you would process with the DCX2496. It would take 6 output channels to take care of the 2 main channels as you wish to do. The DCX2496 has 6 output channels. You would have to use a second DCX2496 to manage additional input/output channels.

Here is an example of how you could assign the 1st/Master DCX for your intended setup:

Inputs
DCX Input No. 1: Left Signal From Pre-Amp
DCX Input No. 2: Right Signal From Pre-Amp
DCX Input No. 3: Unused

Outputs
DCX Channel Output No. 1: Left Low Range Sub: <50Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 2: Left High Range Sub: 50Hz-120Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 3: Left Main Channel Speaker: >120Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 4: Right Low Range Sub: <50Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 5: Right High Range Sub: 50Hz-120Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 6: Right Main Channel Speaker: >120Hz

Here is an example of how you could assign the 2nd/slave DCX for your intended setup:

Inputs
DCX Input No. 1: Left Surround Signal From Pre-Amp
DCX Input No. 2: Right Surround Signal From Pre-Amp
DCX Input No. 3: Center Signal From Pre-Amp

Outputs
DCX Channel Output No. 1: Left Surround >120Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 2: Right Surrouind >120Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 3: Center Channel >120Hz
DCX Channel Output No. 4: Unused
DCX Channel Output No. 5: Unused
DCX Channel Output No. 6: Unused

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

.....Chris, this is above and beyond the call of working the counters....let me add this....I have a stereo system using a Mac pre-amp, and there is a good chance I won't deviate from this....so, at least at first, I would be dealing with main signals and not surround signals....let me deal with this and sort for a couple of days....I appreciate your input more than you know....one last question....can any of the three mono inputs be sent to, and cut, by any of the six output channels?......