What are some really good values in speakers?

D

Defcon

Audioholic
By value I mean looks don't matter, at all. So any company that has fancy veneers, spends loads of money on ads, is almost certainly not going to be good value. And everyone knows sound quality levels off very quickly with increasing price.

There are so many lesser known brands that sound just as good or better. Measurements prove this when they are available as do tests by reviewers and blind tests. e.g. I think a lot of DIY kits from PartsExpress, DIYSG etc are great options for those who can do that.

Also IMO higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better - they have better quality drivers, have more headroom, and don't need expensive equipment to drive them. True?

So with all that, what are some really good values?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
By value I mean looks don't matter, at all. So any company that has fancy veneers, spends loads of money on ads, is almost certainly not going to be good value. And everyone knows sound quality levels off very quickly with increasing price.

There are so many lesser known brands that sound just as good or better. Measurements prove this when they are available as do tests by reviewers and blind tests. e.g. I think a lot of DIY kits from PartsExpress, DIYSG etc are great options for those who can do that.

Also IMO higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better - they have better quality drivers, have more headroom, and don't need expensive equipment to drive them. True?

So with all that, what are some really good values?
What kind of speakers are you interested in? Bookshelves, towers, 2-way or 3-way type, subwoofers?

With more precision, some members will be pleased to give you some recommendation based on their experience.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I wouldn't say that higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better. There are plenty of wretched high sensitivity speakers out there as proof of that. I would say it is better to have higher sensitivity than not. Higher sensitivity does not mean better drivers at all. I am not sure how you reached that conclusion. There are lots of medium to low sensitivity speakers that are really good.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I wouldn't say that higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better. There are plenty of wretched high sensitivity speakers out there as proof of that. I would say it is better to have higher sensitivity than not. Higher sensitivity does not mean better drivers at all. I am not sure how you reached that conclusion. There are lots of medium to low sensitivity speakers that are really good.
exactly, I'm not sure kind of tree the Op is barking up .............
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
exactly, I'm not sure kind of tree the Op is barking up .............
Obviously the wrong tree. Jim Salk and I have been testing out just about every high-sensitivity woofer and tweeter out there to come up with something that will provide the headroom that people want for home theater, while still preserving the accuracy and neutrality needed for dedicated music applications. We did find one pair from Seas ( the Exotic drivers) that almost fit the bill, but they cost a bajillion dollars and bass response is limited to 50 Hz. The others we tested had a very ragged response and/or were colored by their horn loading.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
By value I mean looks don't matter, at all. So any company that has fancy veneers, spends loads of money on ads, is almost certainly not going to be good value. And everyone knows sound quality levels off very quickly with increasing price.

There are so many lesser known brands that sound just as good or better. Measurements prove this when they are available as do tests by reviewers and blind tests. e.g. I think a lot of DIY kits from PartsExpress, DIYSG etc are great options for those who can do that.

Also IMO higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better - they have better quality drivers, have more headroom, and don't need expensive equipment to drive them. True?

So with all that, what are some really good values?
You should also divide products in several classes. Cost and benefit makes something valuable. Speakers under 500$, then under 1000$ and so on.

Also keep in mind that large series can knock the price of marketing off, so companies with huge production can have quality and marketing at affordable levels. That's pretty much what goes on with AVR production. Same can be applied elsewhere.

Companies with direct Internet sales are also among those that can have good price/value.

Higher and lower sensitivity is just a different way of doing things. For example; three characteristics are in a certain relation when sensitivity is considered - volume of the speaker box, sensitivity and depth of low frequencies. It is very hard (perhaps impossible) to have all three.

If you want - small box, deep lows - you have to have low sensitivity
If you want - high sensitivity, deep lows - you're going to end up with a large box
If you want - small box and high sensitivity - it won't go as low

Good designer knows his goal and chooses drivers accordingly.

I believe my speakers are really good bang for buck. First of all because I'm very happy with them. More important is the fact that a very large number of reviewers agree that in order to have it play significantly better, you would have to go much more expensive. Regular price is 1500$, but they are front runners under 2000$ in many cases.

Then the dark side. You go and read the negative reviews and you see that all the cons are so negligible, minute, not really a problem... That you simply have your heart at ease. (And I did get mine for 940$ new, so...):p
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
What are some really good values in speakers?

As you mentioned, DIY kits can be very good. But DIY is not for everyone, especially not those fickle people who intend to sell their speakers, only to buy others.

If you are interested in a lesser known brand where sound quality takes primary importance, looks matter little, and marketing is nonexistent – they're sold only by internet direct – look at Philharmonic Audio.

As others have already mentioned, the sound quality of high sensitivity speakers doesn't keep up with their reputation.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
As others have already mentioned, the sound quality of high sensitivity speakers doesn't keep up with their reputation.
Seems they are keeping up with their reputation for bad sound just fine.o_O

There are some, referred to by the OP, that are actually quite good. I know that Dennis has messed around with the SEOS waveguides and couldn't manage to get them polished up to his standards, and I was a bit bummed. But I went ahead with a Tempest build and find them to be a very even keeled, well sorted design that happen to sound fabulous. Best damn 'garage speakers' out there for value, IMO. Heck, Swerd, even you may like them. Wide dynamic range and low IM distortion are very desirable things for a speaker to exhibit, and larger more sensitive speakers have a huge advantage in that department.

And I agree, Dennis' speakers are value champs, at pretty much all their price points, competitive with diy even. For more traditional direct radiator speakers, the OP should look there first.

Also IMO higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better
Highly subjective; what's "better" in value or performance terms is largely dictated by specific application. I personally wouldn't use Phil BMRs in a huge dedicated home cinema any more than using Tempests in the living room. Ok, I admit it, I've used the Tempests in the living room, but they're destined for a dedicated ht room. At least that's the plan.
- they have better quality drivers,
Not necessarily. PWK built one of the longest enduring speaker companies by using the least expensive drivers he could get away with. Some of them even sounded pretty good.
have more headroom,
True.
and don't need expensive equipment to drive them.
Also true.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Seems they are keeping up with their reputation for bad sound just fine.o_O

I know that Dennis has messed around with the SEOS waveguides and couldn't manage to get them polished up to his standards, and I was a bit bummed.
Also true.
I don't recall working with the SEOS waveguides per se. I've just heard a number of speakers with wave guides, and didn't like them. But I don't don't think any were from the SEOS project. Someone did try and devise a wave guide that would flatten out the response of a very expensive Seas Excel concentric driver, and that did help--I don't know whatever happened to that project.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
First order, beyond measurements is, to look at the designer's stomping grounds. If music, what type are their ears tuned to? The reason I say this is, when I was growing into audio as a hobby, we knew some eclectic types with deep pockets, who typically listened to classical or jazz. With systems so sterile, it could not play a compressed pop song or hard rock tune to save their own space. And here they thought this was great, could tell you all the reasons why, but would not have been caught dead at an AC/DC concert. Well, we had all been to AC/DC concerts and their audiophilicism was not even close to an accurate translation.

Is the designer's bent more towards HT? Double duty with music, perhaps? Are they having to eek out every conceivable use for a design? How many different types of rooms/music have they actually designed for. . . . by ear? For rock music, I'd be more inclined to believe someone who could relay, with emotion and a decent amount of detail, what made the likes of a Randy Rhoads so special if they are telling me their design "should do 'ok' with 'most' rock music." And when listening to someone like Stevie Ray Vaughn on their speakers, if you don't get chill bumps up the back of your neck well into your scalp, they are missing the point, numbers and scientific values be damned.

Another thing that is largely (if not wholly by now) controlling speaker design is, the blessed computer, the internet, and the safe bet. The latter of which, comes in the form of a graph that shows an ever predictable, blanketed, flat response. Based on studies that shows perhaps, some seemingly unanimous preferences based on double blind tests by yet even more lab coats. Forget the guy with 4 beers in him that had his socks permanently knocked off by SRV's heavy handed attack with his ( "Number 1") big fretted Strat. And don't dare contest what you are missing, because you'll get a chart stuffed in your mug that forever condemns any chance you may have had at audiophilia.

With that said, and by now, not giving much a damn with the current approaches (not entirely true, some parts I do follow, but with the aforementioned considerations) to modern audio, I have multiple pairs of speakers dating back to about 1980. The oldest of which, is considered "junk" by today's (and yesterday's if you ask audiophiles who were into it then) standards. Which are a pair of Fisher ST-845 chunks, of hard-rock-magnificence, the 'value' of which, by the fact that they are still here, still play and are not blown, is pretty good! I still use them. When I have had enough of farting around, and just want to jam out to the classics, I break those bad boys out and let them rip. The others that seem to do it all pretty well are some older JBLs.

As far as HT and surround? Meh. I can't see how any one setup or type can really do it all. Most evident by the constant pursuit of troubleshooting and corrections we see taking place these days. At least not until everyone involved with every aspect from the recording of and to the playback, arrive at some unanimous industry standard.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
I don't recall working with the SEOS waveguides per se. I've just heard a number of speakers with wave guides, and didn't like them. But I don't don't think any were from the SEOS project. Someone did try and devise a wave guide that would flatten out the response of a very expensive Seas Excel concentric driver, and that did help--I don't know whatever happened to that project.
Could have sworn we exchanged some PMs about that a few years back. My apologies for the misunderstanding. FWIW, the Duke went with SEOS horns in his Audio Kinesis speakers. Not sure they've been employed outside the diy realm aside from that. If you ever give them a try, please keep us posted.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Could have sworn we exchanged some PMs about that a few years back. My apologies for the misunderstanding. FWIW, the Duke went with SEOS horns in his Audio Kinesis speakers. Not sure they've been employed outside the diy realm aside from that. If you ever give them a try, please keep us posted.
Well, for me a few years is a few decades, so I can't swear to anything. But I really don't think I've ever had one of those wave guides here for testing. I was contacted by someone in the group who wanted me to work on a project, but for some reason that never took hold.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
First order, beyond measurements is, to look at the designer's stomping grounds. If music, what type are their ears tuned to? The reason I say this is, when I was growing into audio as a hobby, we knew some eclectic types with deep pockets, who typically listened to classical or jazz. With systems so sterile, it could not play a compressed pop song or hard rock tune to save their own space. And here they thought this was great, could tell you all the reasons why, but would not have been caught dead at an AC/DC concert. Well, we had all been to AC/DC concerts and their audiophilicism was not even close to an accurate translation.

Is the designer's bent more towards HT? Double duty with music, perhaps? Are they having to eek out every conceivable use for a design? How many different types of rooms/music have they actually designed for. . . . by ear? For rock music, I'd be more inclined to believe someone who could relay, with emotion and a decent amount of detail, what made the likes of a Randy Rhoads so special if they are telling me their design "should do 'ok' with 'most' rock music." And when listening to someone like Stevie Ray Vaughn on their speakers, if you don't get chill bumps up the back of your neck well into your scalp, they are missing the point, numbers and scientific values be damned.

Another thing that is largely (if not wholly by now) controlling speaker design is, the blessed computer, the internet, and the safe bet. The latter of which, comes in the form of a graph that shows an ever predictable, blanketed, flat response. Based on studies that shows perhaps, some seemingly unanimous preferences based on double blind tests by yet even more lab coats. Forget the guy with 4 beers in him that had his socks permanently knocked off by SRV's heavy handed attack with his ( "Number 1") big fretted Strat. And don't dare contest what you are missing, because you'll get a chart stuffed in your mug that forever condemns any chance you may have had at audiophilia.

With that said, and by now, not giving much a damn with the current approaches (not entirely true, some parts I do follow, but with the aforementioned considerations) to modern audio, I have multiple pairs of speakers dating back to about 1980. The oldest of which, is considered "junk" by today's (and yesterday's if you ask audiophiles who were into it then) standards. Which are a pair of Fisher ST-845 chunks, of hard-rock-magnificence, the 'value' of which, by the fact that they are still here, still play and are not blown, is pretty good! I still use them. When I have had enough of farting around, and just want to jam out to the classics, I break those bad boys out and let them rip. The others that seem to do it all pretty well are some older JBLs.

As far as HT and surround? Meh. I can't see how any one setup or type can really do it all. Most evident by the constant pursuit of troubleshooting and corrections we see taking place these days. At least not until everyone involved with every aspect from the recording of and to the playback, arrive at some unanimous industry standard.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I wouldn't say that higher sensitivity speakers are almost always better. There are plenty of wretched high sensitivity speakers out there as proof of that. I would say it is better to have higher sensitivity than not. Higher sensitivity does not mean better drivers at all. I am not sure how you reached that conclusion. There are lots of medium to low sensitivity speakers that are really good.
If a speaker achieve higher sensitivity along with a flat frequency response, then you could say it’s better, since this translates to less distortion. In addition, horn loading tweeters significantly reduces distortion and allows a much lower xover, which keeps the woofer well out of its break up mode. Horn loaded drivers also have incredibly low IM distortion, and horns designed for controlled directivity often have a much wider sweet spot, SEOS horns are designed in this way, as are horns designed by jbl and Klipsch (newer designs).
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Seems they are keeping up with their reputation for bad sound just fine.o_O

There are some, referred to by the OP, that are actually quite good. I know that Dennis has messed around with the SEOS waveguides and couldn't manage to get them polished up to his standards, and I was a bit bummed. But I went ahead with a Tempest build and find them to be a very even keeled, well sorted design that happen to sound fabulous. Best damn 'garage speakers' out there for value, IMO. Heck, Swerd, even you may like them. Wide dynamic range and low IM distortion are very desirable things for a speaker to exhibit, and larger more sensitive speakers have a huge advantage in that department.

And I agree, Dennis' speakers are value champs, at pretty much all their price points, competitive with diy even. For more traditional direct radiator speakers, the OP should look there first.


Highly subjective; what's "better" in value or performance terms is largely dictated by specific application. I personally wouldn't use Phil BMRs in a huge dedicated home cinema any more than using Tempests in the living room. Ok, I admit it, I've used the Tempests in the living room, but they're destined for a dedicated ht room. At least that's the plan.

Not necessarily. PWK built one of the longest enduring speaker companies by using the least expensive drivers he could get away with. Some of them even sounded pretty good.

True.

Also true.
You can put high quality expensive drivers into a poorly designed speaker and get bad sound, you can also use very cheap drivers and get excellent sound, it’s all in the design, good matching of drivers, crossover design, and cabinet design. When reducing the cost of a speaker, it’s where the cuts are made that define how the price affects the sound.

Along with Klipsch, Polk Audio has a reputation for delivering inexpensive speakers that actually sound and measure quite good, just about ever sound and vision review of Polk speakers has shown a true +-3dB response.

At one point in time I had a pair of Polk monitor 70s that I paid $179 ea for, I don’t think I could find a better sounding speaker for that price.
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
Over my almost 50 years of at least decent speaker ownership, I almost always prefer the lower sensitivity speakers over the high efficiency ones. In the old days, acoustic suspension was the best bass in a small box and I still feel that's true, at least on the lower end of the cost spectrum. I prefer a "laid back" sound, with smooth response a must. I had 3 systems set up at one time, in three different rooms. One was fairly high end, and I miss that one since I moved to an apartment. I sold off those speakers (B&W 804's, a friend needed cash and made me an offer I couldn't refuse) as I have no room for them now, and I got some decent money for them. One surprise is that my computer room surround set up, with SVS bookshelves sound tremendously better in the apartment than they ever did in my computer room. Makes sense, as the living room/kitchen/dining room is about 5X as big as the old room was. I never was happy with the old set up on music. On movies/TV, it was ok, but never was quite right. Now it sounds very good. Right now, I have it set up in 5.1 mode, without rear surrounds, but after I add some furniture to put the side surrounds on, I will move to a 7.2 set up. My old Hsu sub died during my move and I'm down to my old PC sub, a Sony 12" that worked well for games. It's sad compared to the Hsu though. And even though I'm in an apartment, My AV receiver is borderline, power wise.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Over my almost 50 years of at least decent speaker ownership, I almost always prefer the lower sensitivity speakers over the high efficiency ones…
I agree with you. I'm only 44 years into speaker ownership, but I've found that high- or low-sensitivity isn't directly involved in what makes for a good sounding speaker. The presence or absence of a horn loaded woofer, mid-range, or tweeter has little to do with good quality sound. This assumes there is no audible horn resonance, as there too often is.

There are many other features that can directly contribute to quality sound in speakers, including but not limited to:
  • Quality drivers with low distortion, capable of creating detailed sound.
  • Flat frequency response with no audible resonance or break up noise.
  • Wide dispersion across the all important mid-range. The wider the better.
  • Crossovers that don't introduce audible peaks or dips in a speaker's frequency response.
  • Bass driver-cabinet alignment that results in non resonant (low Q) well-damped bass.
  • Cabinets built to minimize their vibration and resonance.
As long as you have an amplifier powerful enough to drive such a speaker without going into clipping, the speaker's sensitivity doesn't matter. As amplifier power is now cheap, this becomes less of a problem than it was years ago.

Horn-loaded, controlled dispersion (whatever name you choose to call it) does accomplish one thing. It allows speakers to play louder with limited amplifier power. In large auditoriums, movie theaters, and outdoor venues, this is essential. But in homes, limited dispersion becomes more of a problem than a benefit. Because amplification is cheaper today that it was years ago the argument for high sensitivity speakers disappears.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Horn-loaded, controlled dispersion (whatever name you choose to call it) does accomplish one thing. It allows speakers to play louder with limited amplifier power...in homes, limited dispersion becomes more of a problem than a benefit.
I would say this is more a matter of preference for one type of interaction with local acoustics over another. Wide dispersion seems to appeal to the masses, but some folks, for perfectly valid reasons, take the "more source, less room" approach, which demands speakers with controlled patterns. Here's something Dr. Toole had to say on the topic in a thread over at avs:
Directivity has mainly to do with spatial presentation, and that is something relatively, but not totally, separate. Indeed wide dispersion and multidirectional loudspeaker have appeal for some people in some circumstances (including me, if you get to read my new book). However, there are those, probably most professionals and some percentage of consumers, one of whom is active in this forum, who like a dominant direct sound. Two opposite poles of preference.

As I said, let all loudspeakers be timbrally neutral. From that point one can play with directivity to find what suits you in your taste and circumstances. A couple of new active array loudspeakers give the listener some choices - but at very high prices. For those who have multichannel systems and the potential of tasteful upmixing it just may not matter so much - that includes me. But it is definitely something worth looking at. But, as you say at the end of your post, this is a "preference" issue, not a "fidelity" issue, because, as far as I know, recordings are mostly made on very conventional forward firing loudspeakers in relatively dead control rooms. Even mastering is done using conventional directivity loudspeakers in relatively conventional rooms.

A significant component in this is the customer's musical preferences. Classically inclined listeners like (indeed need) spatial enhancement. Rock/pop fans often prefer more 'in your face' presentation. Different strokes for different folks. However there are people who are attracted to the classical repertoire and who prefer a dominant direct sound field - go figure.
 
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