Watts

[MarkTheShark]

It seems if what I have been reading is correct, higher watts = better sound, is this true? Meaning 300wpc would sound better than a 80wpc amp at the same Decibels, same amp build quality. Is this just because of "headroom"?

 

[Swerd]

It seems if what I have been reading is correct, higher watts = better sound, is this true? Meaning 300wpc would sound better than a 80wpc amp at the same Decibels, same amp build quality. Is this just because of "headroom"?

In a single word, yes, more headroom is the reason.

But few things are really that simple. More watts can lead to better sound only if speakers were limited by fewer watts in the first place. Different speakers have different power requirements. You need more power only up to a certain threshold, a "good enough" point. Beyond "good enough", more is not better.

Similarly, different listener's preferences and different room acoustic properties can affect this. And last, but not least, is price. The added cost of increased amplifier power is not small. And one man's price ceiling is another man's floor.

Another way of looking at the question of the value of increased amplifier power is to ask yourself this. Given the cost of roughly tripling the amplifier power, how much could I improve sound quality by instead spending that same amount of money on better quality speakers? I hope you get my overall point.

 

[MarkTheShark]

In a single word, yes, more headroom is the reason.

But few things are really that simple. More watts can lead to better sound only if speakers were limited by fewer watts in the first place. Different speakers have different power requirements. You need more power only up to a certain threshold, a "good enough" point. Beyond "good enough", more is not better.

Similarly, different listener's preferences and different room acoustic properties can affect this. And last, but not least, is price. The added cost of increased amplifier power is not small. And one man's price ceiling is another man's floor.

Another way of looking at the question of the value of increased amplifier power is to ask yourself this. Given the cost of roughly tripling the amplifier power, how much could I improve sound quality by instead spending that same amount of money on better quality speakers? I hope you get my overall point.

I think I do get your point. If my system is matched properly and my 100wpc amp at half the volume sounds great and is loud as hell (for my room). Upgrading to 250wpc (same amp build) would not give me any better quality at the same Db.

 

[lovinthehd]

Still, it really depends on what that sound level is...if its high enough then sure the more powerful amp will have the advantage. Unused power is unused power...your speakers won't sound better merely because you have more power/headroom on tap....you have to bring that into play. I've used 300wpc amps and lesser amps in the same setup, it's only when you twist the volume level up that it matters....IMO/IME/YMMV.

 

[ski2xblack]

Depends on your music, too. Material with unusually wide dynamic range or crest factor demands a lot of power. Power requirements do not scale linearly with increased subjective loudness, they go up exponentially. Double the power yields +3 db, which is only subtly louder. "Twice as loud" subjectively is approximately +10 db, which requires 10x the power; +20 db requires 100x the power; +30 db requires 1000x the power...that last instance is kind of extreme, but if your average level is, say, 0.5 watts, a not unrealistic average power level, then that 30 db uncompressed snare hit (or whatever it is) will command 500 watts!

 

[Swerd]

Yes. Thanks for adding those points.

Depends on your music, too. Material with unusually wide dynamic range or crest factor demands a lot of power.

Power requirements do not scale linearly with increased subjective loudness, they go up exponentially. Double the power yields +3 db, which is only subtly louder. "Twice as loud" subjectively requires +10 db, which requires 10x the power; +20 db requires 100x the power; +30 db requires 1000x the power…

These days, its rare to be able to go from one amp to another with 10x the power. If you have an AVR with 100 wpc, going to an amp with 1000 wpc isn't easy. That's why I settle for half of twice as loud or 10x. Mathematically that becomes the square root of 10, or roughly 3x.

 

[MrBoat]

I recently acquired an AVR with 120w/ch into 8 ohms. I accepted it based on my previous audio experience where 100w was essentially the gateway to hi-fi. Now, outfitted with more capable speakers, I am doing good on most days using more than 20w. To the contrary, this seems to change somewhat drastically with subwoofer requirements to where, I have had to consider those separately.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... If my system is matched properly and my 100wpc amp at half the volume sounds great and is loud as hell (for my room). Upgrading to 250wpc (same amp build) would not give me any better quality at the same Db.

Yes, that is correct.

That is dB B being Alexander Bell's surname.

 

[Littlefoott]

higher watts = better sound, is this true?

watts are like orange juice
you can have freshly squeezed or tang crystals ..it's all orange juice

watts are over rated and used to impress a false image of quality.
it's whats "in" the watt that counts


a couple decades ago I had a 30w marantz and a 60w kenwood.
which one should sound better? the kenwood since it has double the power?
well the 30w marantz DOMINATED that kenwood all day long. (compared on the exact same speakers.)

 

[shadyJ]

I

watts are like orange juice
you can have freshly squeezed or tang crystals ..it's all orange juice

watts are over rated and used to impress a false image of quality.
it's whats "in" the watt that counts


a couple decades ago I had a 30w marantz and a 60w kenwood.
which one should sound better? the kenwood since it has double the power?
well the 30w marantz DOMINATED that kenwood all day long. (compared on the exact same speakers.)

I don't agree with this at all. As long as the signal is not altered, and the current gain is the same, the sound will be the same. Most amplifiers do a good enough job for normal listening levels. If one amplifier sounds different than another amplifier when all other things are equal, something is wrong with one of the amplifiers.

 

[ski2xblack]

watts are like orange juice
you can have freshly squeezed or tang crystals ..it's all orange juice

watts are over rated and used to impress a false image of quality.
it's whats "in" the watt that counts

To paraphrase Feynman, juicy claims require juicy evidence.

a couple decades ago I had a 30w marantz and a 60w kenwood.
which one should sound better? the kenwood since it has double the power?
well the 30w marantz DOMINATED that kenwood all day long. (compared on the exact same speakers.)

Dollars to donuts that this would have boiled down to reducible explanations, ones which don't require appeal to magic, extra juicy and flavorful watts.

Perhaps the speakers presented an impedance/phase combo that the less powerful Marantz could deal with better than the ostensibly more powerful Kenwood. Wouldn't be the first time a less powerful amp was more load invariant than a more powerful, junkier one. Power Cube measurements of both amps and impedance/phase plots of the speakers would reveal if this was the case. Maybe the Marantz was an 8B or similar (opt coupled tube amp), in which case all bets are off as such a beast would not only have high output impedance related response deviations, but tolerable (even preferred by some) clipping behavior. Any way you slice it, if one amp "DOMINATED" the other, there was a rational, reductive root cause. None of this is magic, and there is absolutely no requirement for magic watts.

 

[mtrycrafts]

T o paraphrase Feynman, juicy claims require juicy evidence.

....

Was that his real words or a bit modified?

 

[j_garcia]

headroom is important when you need it and don't have it. If you don't need it for what you are listening to, there will be no audible difference. So at a low listening level, 300w won't sound any different than 80w. At HIGH listening levels where the speaker becomes strained with 80w, you will likely hear a difference with 300w.

 

[Bucknekked]

It seems if what I have been reading is correct, higher watts = better sound, is this true? Meaning 300wpc would sound better than a 80wpc amp at the same Decibels, same amp build quality. Is this just because of "headroom"?

the OP's question was will 300w sound better than 80w given the same db level of listening, amp quality etc.
I think the answers given are illuminating and fairly stated: unless you need the headroom provided by a more powerful amp, one is not likely to hear much of a difference. Caveat caveat caveat, YMMV.

I would just like to echo the OP's line of thinking: for years I always thought the more powerful the amp the better the sound. I think I bought in to the general idea because that's how audio is often portrayed: the more powerful the better. Somewhere along the trail I read an article called "The First Watt". The basic premise being most people listen at modest levels, so who cares how many watts you have if your first watt sounds like crap.

That thought began my journey and search that ends up right where we are now: one only needs as much good quality power (plus some headroom) as you usually listen to. For most of us, that means we don't really need or will ever take advantage of big power amps.

Rational thought says we don't need big power. If you study human beings, we make a lot of decisions on irrational terms. I don't need a big power amp. I surely don't. But that won't stop me from buying one some day when a big check arrives and I find one with the right colored knobs and VU meters on it.

 

[PENG]

It would be nice if one day everyone agrees to specifying amplifier output using VA instead of watts; and speaker sensitivity in XdB/2.83V at 1m instead of XdB/1W at 1m. 1W at 1m will work mathematically too as long as the manufacturer is totally clear that is 1W at 1m of measured power actually dissipated in the speaker and not in a test resistor. In fact this last part applies to using 2.83V instead of 1 watt, or even dBW. When that happens, we will no longer have to worry about the effect (mathematically only) of the inductive/capacitive nature of real speakers other than the heat dissipation issue inside the amp due to the reactive load.

 

[j_garcia]

People seem to equate more power with better sound. What I find it actually tends to be is that you can achieve higher SPL before distortion and people often automatically equate louder with "better". That "opened up" sound is really just higher SPL. Those are two different things but are perceived as the same.

To add to that, there are two things there - people who actually don't have sufficient power for the SPL they're looking for and thus it sounds poor, and people who want better sound. Two subtly different things to me - one doesn't know what they need or that they are basically abusing their system and the second is looking for "better sound" out of what they have and thinks that power will make it sound "better" (though that can ultimately be a lot of things, often poor speaker choice).

 

[MarkTheShark]

Thanks everyone, for all the great information.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks everyone, for all the great information.

So, curious, you gonna get that monster amp anyways?

 

[MarkTheShark]

So, curious, you gonna get that monster amp anyways?

I am liking my Rogue Sphinx at moment. This years budget has gone to a pair of Spatial M3 Turbo's in RED.

 

[Bucknekked]

I am liking my Rogue Sphinx at moment. This years budget has gone to a pair of Spatial M3 Turbo's in RED.

MarkTheShark:
are your spatials going to look like these? If they are, what cool looking speakers.
There are so many companies and products I have never heard of or never seen that I still feel brand new to a lifelong hobby. They look terrific, I can only assume they will have sound to match.