Vivid: Great or snake oil?

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Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
Vivid? Man, they make some great movies. Most of the best actresses work for them you know.
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
Rob Babcock said:
Vivid? Man, they make some great movies. Most of the best actresses work for them you know.
I was waiting for this. :D
 
J

J Risch

Enthusiast
mtrycrafts said:
Articles by Jon Risch and others have been very informative!

NO!!! That is the last audiophile to listen to. His history is very long on the internet. His BS is vast. His voodoo, urban legends are unparalleled. He has nothign factual to offer except speculations what migh or may be. He has been so discredited that it is not worht the time reading his posts anymore.
Please expand you rhorizons beyong him, for your own sake.
I find it ironic to the extreme, that you are now acting as if you are the knowledgable person, and I am to be ignored.

I remember when you first started posting replies to me years ago, all you had were a handful of white papers to cite and quote from, and little or no understanding of what they meant, or the true implications of their contents.
I had real world experience of the subject, formal training (or my own research and readings), I had actually listened to all of the things under discussion, in many cases using controlled listening tests. I had performed measurements, run experiments, performed analysis of said measurements and listening tests.
As a practicing engineer and longstanding member of the Audio Engineerig Society, with three US patents to my name, three AES papers presented, several magazine articles published, a list of audio design credits a mile long, I have the benefit of over 25 years of professional experience in the audio field.

However, one thing is still the same, despite your having picked up some of the jargon and buzzwords over the years, you still depend on the work of others, rather than actually trying any of this for yourself. It is all still strictly in the realm of theory and what you call science. You are not an EE, you do not have any first hand experience with engineering or audio design, you do not even claim to have any specific audio equipment, nor have you ever revealed what sort of audio system, if any, you own.

As with all things, the application of a particular discipline depends on the depth and breadth of one's knowledge of that discipline, and while someone who is well versed in a discipline can speak with some authority with regard to the science and theory, it still doesn't replace one minute iota of actual experimentation or first hand experience (such as listening).

You say I have been discredited. One could easily say the same about you, it would depend on who was asked.
I can say with some certainty that the few people that you might be able to get to back up your statement by agreeing with it, would be folks who have argued bitterly with me in the past over audio cable sonics. This is widely recognized to be a very contentious topic, one which even ordinarily reasonable people get very hot and excited about, with lots of name calling and flaming. It is not too surprising that someone who I had argued with over this topic would be willing to state that they thought I was full of BS.

However, that would not make it true, nor does it provide ANY sort of evidence for the statement that I have been discredited.

For someone who prides himself on the application of logic to an argument, I find your logic on this subject quite flawed. Even if one were to accept someone else's opinion regarding my stance on audio cables, that I was incorrect in my theories, speculations, or arguments regarding audio cables, this does not automatically mean that all of the other subjects I post on would also be wrong or without merit.

My posts and information on room treatment acoustics are highly regarded from all sides, including the more honest cable naysayers. My posts and information on various other aspects of audio playback projects, such as balanced power, iolation transformers, AC Line Filters, etc., is also highly regarded. My DIY AC Line Filter has been one of the most popular projects used for the purpose it was designed for. It is also very highly regarded, and has NOT ONE word of denigration posted for it.

All in all, my posts and information, have been very well received by the vast overwhelming majority of the folks who have read it, tried it, and then posted positively about it.
The ONLY negative comments one will find on the internet about me are ALL strictly related to audio cable sonics. I think that the most telling part of that, is that of the folks who have actually taken the time and trouble to build one of my DIY audio cable designs, virtually ALL of them have had a positive experience, and posted their thanks and praise of the designs.

The only people likely to state that they think I am peddling BS are the ones who STRICTLY ON THEORY, say that my stance on audio cable sonics is wrong. I note that NO ONE has ever provided the same kind and level of proof that they demand from others, to show that any of my theories or my listening tests are somehown wrong, incorrect or BS. Many claim to hae done so, including mtry, but when pressed to provide that evidence, it is never forthcoming, or a complete red herring is cited as a distraction.

On the other hand, as I said earlier, there are quite a few people that would be quite willing to say that mtrycrafts does not know what he is talking about on any subject audio related.
It is a fact that he has been ignored and dismissed by a great many folks once they find out that he is speaking STRICTLY from theory, and not any personal experiences.

One side comment, relevant to this thread. While digital audio is mostly concerned about the transfer and processing of digital data bits, it is NOT completely immune to problems because of this. Jitter can rear it's head and cause the sound to become less than pure.

I talk about this at:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.html
where I provide over 33 citations to back up what I talk about.
It is NOT just about getting the ones and zeros there intact, it is about the TIMING of doing so, and how clean this is, and how clean it stays.

Jon Risch
 
J

J Risch

Enthusiast
In my defense

Dessayfan said:
To all of you who have put in your "2 cents" on the subject at hand - thank you. I am a bit shocked at your criticisms of Jon Risch, though, for I thought him to be a reasoned individual. Guess it's all in how you read and interpret things? Plus, you obviously have much greater knowledge of him than I do, so I must put some stock in that.
Indeed, many folks think that I am a reasoned and knowledgable individual, and with good reason.

However, I have been a vocal defender of the existence of sonic differences between audio cables, based on a combination of physics theory, listening tests, and years of first hand experience.
In arguing with folks on the internet about cables, I have been vilified by some, as being not only wrong, but full of BS and I have been accused of promoting bad science, etc. I am sure that some of those folks would tend to agree with mtrycrafts, and say that I am full of BS, but that would not necessarily be logic and reason talking, but rather, the result of heated and intense debate over an admittedly controversial topic.

My own investigations into audio cable sonics culminated in my development of some DIY audio cable designs that are very highly regarded by those who have built them. I offer these DIY designs for free, and do not sell or make cables for others. My DIY cable designs are so well regarded, that several of them have been selected by web entrepreneurs to offer as assembled product for sale.
Note that I do not get any compensation or money from any of these folks, I presented a public domain design and they went with it. Several of these have been reviewed in the audio press, some of which are online, and they invariably are called giant-killer cables by the reviewer's. I think that this provides some back-up for the results of my listening tests, and my design priorities.

As for my credentials, I cover some of that in my posted reply to mtrycrafts, see:
http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=29480&mode=linear#post29480

As for mtrycrafts, he is not that well regarded on some other message boards, and has been dismissed by many people once they realize that he is not speaking from actual experience, but rather, ONLY from a theory standpoint. So for him to say I have been discredited, when he is in the same boat for other boards, and other folks, is kind of funny.

I guess he thought I would not see this, and that he would be able to get away with his unfounded claims and statements.

Jon Risch
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
J Risch said:
nor have you ever revealed what sort of audio system, if any, you own.
He says he has a boombox and a stereo in his car. :D
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
J Risch said:
As a practicing engineer and longstanding member of the Audio Engineerig Society, with three US patents to my name, three AES papers presented, several magazine articles published, a list of audio design credits a mile long, I have the benefit of over 25 years of professional experience in the audio field.
What is the purpose of this statement? Are you suggesting credentials are a sufficient substitute for proofs? Just wondering -- I did not immediately think of another reason for you to make this statement unless you just like to toot your own horn.

As I'm sure everyone is aware; experience itself does not make one's opinions correct. The value of experience is greatly variable between individuals.

As for the implication that owning a patent is in some way definitive or of value: patents can be obtained for just about anything if one has the filing fee and proper legal assistance. Their is no shortage of useless patents. If you are referring to the US patent office in particular, they allow patenting of such things as how to swing a swing:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=*&l=50&s1='6,368,227'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,368,227&RS=PN/6,368,227

AES paper submissions that are at preprint status and reading them to a conference do not require scientific proof or strict protocols beforehand. Only some AES papers are valuable and an individual analysis of each paper is required in order to assess it's actual worth.

You are not an EE, you do not have any first hand experience with engineering or audio design, you do not even claim to have any specific audio equipment, nor have you ever revealed what sort of audio system, if any, you own.
Who cares if mtrycraft is an EE? Who cares if YOU are an EE? EE or no EE still requires burden of proof on unsubstaniated positive claims. This sounds(too me) like a straw man argument -- or even worse; actually believing that credentials or experience automaticly make someone's word 'gold' no matter what they assert -- just because they have a degree in that field. Maybe I'm off base on this assumption; it's just the way I picked up on your tone.

All in all, my posts and information, have been very well received by the vast overwhelming majority of the folks who have read it, tried it, and then posted positively about it.
The ONLY negative comments one will find on the internet about me are ALL strictly related to audio cable sonics. I think that the most telling part of that, is that of the folks who have actually taken the time and trouble to build one of my DIY audio cable designs, virtually ALL of them have had a positive experience, and posted their thanks and praise of the designs.
Unfortunately, the number of people who priase or like something is only useful to judge popularity, not correctness. Or was the Earth really flat when most people on the Earth believed it to be so?

-Chris
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Rob Babcock said:
Vivid? Man, they make some great movies. Most of the best actresses work for them you know.
I personally prefer the lower budget movies in this genre. The flaws/imperfections in the actresses and productions with the seemingly less 'glam' type studios then Vivid give it a more 'realistic' edge in my opinion.

-Chris
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
Dessayfan said:
Now, Mudcat comes to defense - and all is a-bristle.

Time out here. All I said was:

MUDCAT said:
He says he has a boombox and a stereo in his car. :D

If you think my comment is coming to mtrycrafts defense, no wonder you're buying these potions developed by Prof Snape.


Dessayfan said:
If I were to engage in a discussion about Brussels sprouts, say, and told you that they taste terrible - the FIRST question you would ask is:
You actually ate these? You're a better man than I Gunga Din. Personally, I hate Brussel Sprouts, and would totally agree with you.


Dessayfan said:
I continue my quest to try and understand why my CDs don't sound great - and my quest to try to determine whether Vivid can be tested, and the results shown to me. Perhaps Mr. Risch can shed some light on this? If so, I would appreciate it, sir, as I am tired of being argued against by people who refuse to use the product so that they "might" hear what I hear - and instead only label the product "snake oil."

Tell you what, you want really clean CDs? Mix 1/2 cup of Skippy smooth peanut butter with the yolks of two hard boiled eggs and 1/2 cup of hydrogen peroxide. Microwave it on high for 3 minutes. Better do it in a pyrex bowl because it makes a rather stable solution of Sulfuric acid.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Mudcat said:
If you think my comment is coming to mtrycrafts defense, no wonder you're buying these potions developed by Prof Snape.

You may quote me as having 2 boomoxes :)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
J Risch said:
I find it ironic to the extreme, that you are now acting as if you are the knowledgable person, and I am to be ignored.

I remember when you first started posting replies to me years ago, all you had were a handful of white papers to cite and quote from, and little or no understanding of what they meant, or the true implications of their contents.
I had real world experience of the subject, formal training (or my own research and readings), I had actually listened to all of the things under discussion, in many cases using controlled listening tests. I had performed measurements, run experiments, performed analysis of said measurements and listening tests.
As a practicing engineer and longstanding member of the Audio Engineerig Society, with three US patents to my name, three AES papers presented, several magazine articles published, a list of audio design credits a mile long, I have the benefit of over 25 years of professional experience in the audio field.

However, one thing is still the same, despite your having picked up some of the jargon and buzzwords over the years, you still depend on the work of others, rather than actually trying any of this for yourself. It is all still strictly in the realm of theory and what you call science. You are not an EE, you do not have any first hand experience with engineering or audio design, you do not even claim to have any specific audio equipment, nor have you ever revealed what sort of audio system, if any, you own.

As with all things, the application of a particular discipline depends on the depth and breadth of one's knowledge of that discipline, and while someone who is well versed in a discipline can speak with some authority with regard to the science and theory, it still doesn't replace one minute iota of actual experimentation or first hand experience (such as listening).

You say I have been discredited. One could easily say the same about you, it would depend on who was asked.
I can say with some certainty that the few people that you might be able to get to back up your statement by agreeing with it, would be folks who have argued bitterly with me in the past over audio cable sonics. This is widely recognized to be a very contentious topic, one which even ordinarily reasonable people get very hot and excited about, with lots of name calling and flaming. It is not too surprising that someone who I had argued with over this topic would be willing to state that they thought I was full of BS.

However, that would not make it true, nor does it provide ANY sort of evidence for the statement that I have been discredited.

For someone who prides himself on the application of logic to an argument, I find your logic on this subject quite flawed. Even if one were to accept someone else's opinion regarding my stance on audio cables, that I was incorrect in my theories, speculations, or arguments regarding audio cables, this does not automatically mean that all of the other subjects I post on would also be wrong or without merit.

My posts and information on room treatment acoustics are highly regarded from all sides, including the more honest cable naysayers. My posts and information on various other aspects of audio playback projects, such as balanced power, iolation transformers, AC Line Filters, etc., is also highly regarded. My DIY AC Line Filter has been one of the most popular projects used for the purpose it was designed for. It is also very highly regarded, and has NOT ONE word of denigration posted for it.

All in all, my posts and information, have been very well received by the vast overwhelming majority of the folks who have read it, tried it, and then posted positively about it.
The ONLY negative comments one will find on the internet about me are ALL strictly related to audio cable sonics. I think that the most telling part of that, is that of the folks who have actually taken the time and trouble to build one of my DIY audio cable designs, virtually ALL of them have had a positive experience, and posted their thanks and praise of the designs.

The only people likely to state that they think I am peddling BS are the ones who STRICTLY ON THEORY, say that my stance on audio cable sonics is wrong. I note that NO ONE has ever provided the same kind and level of proof that they demand from others, to show that any of my theories or my listening tests are somehown wrong, incorrect or BS. Many claim to hae done so, including mtry, but when pressed to provide that evidence, it is never forthcoming, or a complete red herring is cited as a distraction.

On the other hand, as I said earlier, there are quite a few people that would be quite willing to say that mtrycrafts does not know what he is talking about on any subject audio related.
It is a fact that he has been ignored and dismissed by a great many folks once they find out that he is speaking STRICTLY from theory, and not any personal experiences.

One side comment, relevant to this thread. While digital audio is mostly concerned about the transfer and processing of digital data bits, it is NOT completely immune to problems because of this. Jitter can rear it's head and cause the sound to become less than pure.

I talk about this at:
http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/jitter.html
where I provide over 33 citations to back up what I talk about.
It is NOT just about getting the ones and zeros there intact, it is about the TIMING of doing so, and how clean this is, and how clean it stays.

Jon Risch
Look what the cat dragged in.

Jon, we go back a long time on the net. I have seen your bs, your voodoo and being discredited on the net.
You have nothing but snake oil, maybee, perhaps nonsense to offer to the gullible ones.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Dessayfan said:
. Sigh. I continue my quest to try and understand why my CDs don't sound great - and my quest to try to determine whether Vivid can be tested, and the results shown to me. Perhaps Mr. Risch can shed some light on this? If so, I would appreciate it, sir, as I am tired of being argued against by people who refuse to use the product so that they "might" hear what I hear - and instead only label the product "snake oil."
.

He can expalin it till the cows come home. Meaningless. He is the nets#1 golden ear with no data to show for anything. Maybes, perhaps, should be is worthelss. Just because he has that EE is also doesn't give him immunity from peddling bs, voodoo, hype, mythology.

But, you are welcome to accept whomever as giving you the facts. He has very few of them.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Mudcat said:
He says he has a boombox and a stereo in his car. :D
As that has anything to do with the price of tea in China, or, anything to do with the claims others make about audio. Most interesting this is all they can gripe about endlessly.
I have 2 boomboxes:)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
How So?

Dessayfan said:
He wanted a "classless" society - youze guyz are living examples of what he wanted - "classless."

How so? These discussions have nothing to do with class. Why not try to direct your questions away from testable claims and see if we care which component you buy or how expensive it is as long as you like it or prefer it.
However, you should have gathered from reading the posts that we question what is claimed, if the claim can be tested. A preference is not testable.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
What is the purpose of this statement? Are you suggesting credentials are a sufficient substitute for proofs? Just wondering -- I did not immediately think of another reason for you to make this statement unless you just like to toot your own horn.

He wants immunity from being challenged or questioned:)

As I'm sure everyone is aware; experience itself does not make one's opinions correct. The value of experience is greatly variable between individuals.

I had a 20+ year experienced plumber who even taught it in school come out on a water heater problem. It went down hill from the first word out of his mouth that a blanket around the heater wiil corrode the tank due to moisture buildup and fail prematurely. I should have sent him back there and then instead of wasting an hour. I should have talked to the walls. :D

As for the implication that owning a patent is in some way definitive or of value:

He has touted it from day one :rolleyes:
One only has to check what they are for ;)

Who cares if mtrycraft is an EE? Who cares if YOU are an EE? EE or no EE still requires burden of proof on unsubstaniated positive claims.

He just cannot stand being questioned, challenged :eek:

Just a sample; much more where that came from :D

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+wire+OR+cable+OR+ABX+"risch"+-piano+-bug+-algorithm&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=736ub5$*3h@news01.aud.alcatel.com&rnum=11

Unfortunately, the number of people who priase or like something is only useful to judge popularity, not correctness. Or was the Earth really flat when most people on the Earth believed it to be so? -Chris

One only has to see how many praise Sylvia Brown, John Edwards et al, or homeopathic medicines, holistic healing, alien abductions and on it gos. That is all he has to offer, number of testimonials, like an infomercial :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The point being - again - I (and a half-dozen friends) have heard what we term "marked" improvements in sound and picture quality when using Vivid.


An unreliable observation. Your biases are get in your way of the real facts that is testable, under DBT conditions. No, it will not cause such huge differences that a DBT is not warranted. Exactely the opposit. There is no science to support any change, let alone a huge one. And, a DBT would result in a 100% correct responses if it hadf such huge mytical powers and you have nothing to fear from a DBT.


You say preferences cannot be tested? Why not?

How can you test what you like? I like chocolate. How can you test that? By giving me vanilla? WRONG. I still like chocolate.

Why not get some Vivid and use it for yourself

Why would I waste my time, assuming it is free sample?
There is zero evidence that it makes a difference.


You dodge and dodge, sir(s) but your minds are obviously closed.

Actually, the closed mind is in your court. You will not entertain the idea that it is snake oil claim and are not willing to a
DBT tetst? Why are you scared? Afraid to not tell a difference? You don't trust your ears alone, must use your eyes to know when it is used? Like an open book test in class?



Name-calling

What name calling?


I think my statement stands for itself.

Which one?
 
J

J Risch

Enthusiast
Some Background

WmAx said:
What is the purpose of this statement? Are you suggesting credentials are a sufficient substitute for proofs? Just wondering -- I did not immediately think of another reason for you to make this statement unless you just like to toot your own horn.

As I'm sure everyone is aware; experience itself does not make one's opinions correct. The value of experience is greatly variable between individuals.

As for the implication that owning a patent is in some way definitive or of value: patents can be obtained for just about anything if one has the filing fee and proper legal assistance. Their is no shortage of useless patents. If you are referring to the US patent office in particular, they allow patenting of such things as how to swing a swing:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=*&l=50&s1='6,368,227'.WKU.&OS=PN/6,368,227&RS=PN/6,368,227

AES paper submissions that are at preprint status and reading them to a conference do not require scientific proof or strict protocols beforehand. Only some AES papers are valuable and an individual analysis of each paper is required in order to assess it's actual worth.



Who cares if mtrycraft is an EE? Who cares if YOU are an EE? EE or no EE still requires burden of proof on unsubstaniated positive claims. This sounds(too me) like a straw man argument -- or even worse; actually believing that credentials or experience automaticly make someone's word 'gold' no matter what they assert -- just because they have a degree in that field. Maybe I'm off base on this assumption; it's just the way I picked up on your tone.



Unfortunately, the number of people who priase or like something is only useful to judge popularity, not correctness. Or was the Earth really flat when most people on the Earth believed it to be so?

-Chris
I was merely establishing that I am not some bumpkin who wandered in off the street, that I have a great deal of experience with audio engineering matters, and that mtrycrafts is not operating from the same knowledge base that I am. In the past, he has tried to claim that I am not an engineer, that I do not work in audio, and so on, in a feeble attempt to dismiss my points and arguments.

I think that all of this is relevant for folks reading these threads to decide who they will believe, and who they will take with a grain of salt.

I do believe that mtrycrafts was the one who first made several claims with regard to me, most specifically, that I have been "discredited" on the internet. This is a complete and utter falsehood, as I have tried to show.

Rather than provide any sort of logical arguments regarding what I posted, and that Dessayfan cited, he initially (and subsequently) used an ad homenium argument, and attacked the person, not the ideas. Again, for someone who claims to be utterly logical and scientific, I think that it is strange to say the least, that his only rebuttal, and his only recourse, was to slam me personally, and falsely.

I merely pointed out that, not only could similar claims be made regarding his credibility, but that there are other internet sites where he is not that well regarded. Folks here may not be aware of this, just as they may not be aware that his statements are far from the impartial and impersonal opinions that he may be trying to portray them as.

If he wishes to discuss the content of the post that Dessayfan cited, then I will try to respond as time permits, but until then, I see no further point in responding to unsubstantiated statements and lame personal put-downs by mtrycrafts.

Jon Risch
 
Rip Van Woofer

Rip Van Woofer

Audioholic General
Since this discussion has become, uh, heated, I have moved it to the appropriate forum.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
mtrycrafts remark about changing the light to green was JOKE, no doubt meant to have as much validity of the claims for Vivid.

Just what do you think is going to happen over time to the protective layer of the cd when you spray it with that junk? I hope the cds you treated aren't ones you really enjoy or are hard to find, because there is a real possibility that they won't last after treatment with Vivid (even more chance for the ones you sprayed furniture polish on).
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I was merely establishing that I am not some bumpkin who wandered in off the street, that I have a great deal of experience with audio engineering matters, and that mtrycrafts is not operating from the same knowledge base that I am. In the past, he has tried to claim that I am not an engineer, that I do not work in audio, and so on, in a feeble attempt to dismiss my points and arguments.

You could have fooled everybody.

However, I take exception to your libelous insinuation about what you are trying to accuse me of doing. It is a total LIE on your part. Get your facts togeter or else. An apology is in order and I demand it promptly.
But what can one expect from such a person as you?


I think that all of this is relevant for folks reading these threads to decide who they will believe, and who they will take with a grain of salt.

YES, it is. It will sho who is the liar, JON.

I do believe that mtrycrafts was the one who first made several claims with regard to me, most specifically, that I have been "discredited" on the internet. This is a complete and utter falsehood, as I have tried to show.

Check the link. Others are in the archives. You can run but you cannot hide.
 
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