poutanen

poutanen

Full Audioholic
I for one would like to see a vinyl forum on here... I've got questions about the format that'd be nice to have answered without getting flamed for using vinyl. :D

Like... digital-analog

I think most music is recorded and mastered digitally, so it seems like something may be lost in converting to analog. So is there no point in buying any album new enough (mid 80's or so) to have been digital recorded?

It would seem to me the best way would be to go analog all the way. i.e. an old supertramp recording, playing through the record player, through my AVR (acting as a pre-amp) in "PureDirect" mode passing the signal to the amps and just my two L and R mains.

I've listened to the into to "take the long way home" on vinyl, CD, and MP3 formats. Maybe it's a placebo effect but the harmonic sounds alive on vinyl. I haven't heard anything like that before! It felt like I was sitting beside the artist... :)
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Aaron, what did you think of the Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms album that you got recently? If memory serves, that was an all digital recording.
 
poutanen

poutanen

Full Audioholic
Aaron, what did you think of the Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms album that you got recently? If memory serves, that was an all digital recording.
Yeah it is, I read that after I ordered the album (used on eBay). It still sounds good, though I can't tell a signifigant difference between the album and the same stuff on CD. The album was in good shape, but still used, so the CD may have sounded better. I'm not sure what kind of recording frequencies/rates they were using back then, but I imagine it would have been on par with CD quality.

I guess with current technology you could record at much higher resolution than CD quality audio, and convert to analog and record to vinyl and have more of the original resolution retained.

I'm really talking out of my *** here as I haven't looked into any of this, just guessing at this point.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Yeah it is, I read that after I ordered the album (used on eBay). It still sounds good, though I can't tell a signifigant difference between the album and the same stuff on CD. The album was in good shape, but still used, so the CD may have sounded better. I'm not sure what kind of recording frequencies/rates they were using back then, but I imagine it would have been on par with CD quality.

I guess with current technology you could record at much higher resolution than CD quality audio, and convert to analog and record to vinyl and have more of the original resolution retained.

I'm really talking out of my *** here as I haven't looked into any of this, just guessing at this point.
The CD rate is completely transparent to human hearing. All credible studies that used double blinded, randomized testing found this to be true.

The difference between the CD and vinyl is typically a different master. In some cases, the vinyl has a better master as compared to the CD version.

Also, vinyl brings variability into the mix, where you may very well have a cartridge with a significant frequency response deviation, thus acting as a non-adjustable equalizer.

I do have a very high quality turntable and tonearm system for the cases where the vinyl version is superior. But I highly prefer to use CDs, of course. Vinyl is a pain in dealing with keeping them clean to keep the noise floor very low.

-Chris
 
poutanen

poutanen

Full Audioholic
The turntable must naturally boost the mid-range vs. a CD then, because I find vocals/harmonica/guitar, etc. to be much more prominent in the music when listening to vinyl.

Although it's quite possibly a placebo effect! :D
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The turntable must naturally boost the mid-range vs. a CD then, because I find vocals/harmonica/guitar, etc. to be much more prominent in the music when listening to vinyl.

Although it's quite possibly a placebo effect! :D
It's usually a different master used for the vinyl. It seems the master is usually better for the vinyl.

One can record vinyl with a decent digital recorder and the sound will be identical to the vinyl. So it is not a problem of digital retaining fidelity. It's a problem with the source material being set into the digital format.

I prefer vinyl usually, as well, these days, btw. I even invested in a high quality record player system made by Clearaudio(Marantz TT-15S1).

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The turntable must naturally boost the mid-range vs. a CD then, because I find vocals/harmonica/guitar, etc. to be much more prominent in the music when listening to vinyl.

Although it's quite possibly a placebo effect! :D
It's usually a different master used for the vinyl. It seems the master is usually better for the vinyl.

One can record vinyl with a decent digital recorder and the sound will be identical to the vinyl. People have also performed careful DBTs in relation to this type of comparison. So it is not a problem of digital retaining fidelity. It's a problem with the source material being used to make the CDs. Why the failure to simply use the same master as is used for the vinyl, I do not know.

I prefer vinyl usually in terms of audio quality, as well, these days, btw. I even invested in a high quality record player system made by Clearaudio(Marantz TT-15S1). I plan to track down and purchase some mint condition 80's vintage tables that were high tech, of a far higher caliber in terms of accurate transcription, as compared to modern units that are made by small companies with no hope of ever matching the devices made by major corporations with serious tech research/labs at their disposal. My dream table is a Denon DP100M. No current 'high end' turntable is anywhere near the sophistication of this device, with it's cpu controlled arm system that actively cancels the arm resonances and tracking errors for as perfect transcription as possible. The table's motor is actually the same one used in popular high quality record cutting lathes. This table was never intended for consumer use, btw, it was designed specifically for professional use to transcribe vinyl as accurately as possible. It's purely industrial looks would actually make it rather undesirable in most high end setups that are cosmetically oriented.

Denon DP-100M:


-Chris
 
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poutanen

poutanen

Full Audioholic
Denon DP-100M:


-Chris
To me, that thing's beautiful. But I prefer function over form when it comes to audio equipment... if you can have both, great, but I'd rather something looked like it came out of post-war germany but sound like gold, than the other way around.

My current table is a late 80's Kenwood unit. I've been away from home for so long for work I can't remember what model it is.

I'm going to hardwire an input into the wall so that my turntable is far away from as many speakers as possible. Previously it was about 1.5m away from one of the sub/main stacks and it'd get feedback when the system was pushed past about 75%.

Unfortunately, my Yamaha RX-V1500 won't pass phono through to zone 2/3 outputs, so I'm screwed for some good 2-ch in my garage or computer room/studio. :mad:
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
To me, that thing's beautiful. But I prefer function over form when it comes to audio equipment... if you can have both, great, but I'd rather something looked like it came out of post-war germany but sound like gold, than the other way around.

My current table is a late 80's Kenwood unit. I've been away from home for so long for work I can't remember what model it is.

I'm going to hardwire an input into the wall so that my turntable is far away from as many speakers as possible. Previously it was about 1.5m away from one of the sub/main stacks and it'd get feedback when the system was pushed past about 75%.

Unfortunately, my Yamaha RX-V1500 won't pass phono through to zone 2/3 outputs, so I'm screwed for some good 2-ch in my garage or computer room/studio. :mad:
If you are up for some DIY, I will assist you in design of an acoustical isolation enclosure for your TT. I will probably be building one next year. But I'll help you now with general design and details of construction if you so desire.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
For the same cost, a Technics SL-1200MKII is a far more upgradable and functional device. The SL-1200MKII has substantially higher speed accuracy, a superior platter(more inert) and chassis (more inert - and heavy cast aluminum with huge dampening mechanism on the bottom half of table). Now, the arm is superior on the Pro-Ject. But the table, motor and platter are not comparable to the Techhnics. The arm can be easily changed out on the Technics with inexpensive tone arm adapter from Origin Live or a number of other companies so that you can install your choice of aftermarket arm. The Rega RB300 is a fantastic value arm to install on the Technics, and the RB300 is a measurably(objectively verified to have superior resonance behvaiour compared to many arms) high quality arm suitable to replace the stock Technics arm.

-Chris
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
For the same cost, a Technics SL-1200MKII is a far more upgradable and functional device. The SL-1200MKII has substantially higher speed accuracy, a superior platter(more inert) and chassis (more inert - and heavy cast aluminum with huge dampening mechanism on the bottom half of table). Now, the arm is superior on the Pro-Ject. But the table, motor and platter are not comparable to the Techhnics. The arm can be easily changed out on the Technics with inexpensive tone arm adapter from Origin Live or a number of other companies so that you can install your choice of aftermarket arm. The Rega RB300 is a fantastic value arm to install on the Technics, and the RB300 is a measurably(objectively verified to have superior resonance behvaiour compared to many arms) high quality arm suitable to replace the stock Technics arm.

-Chris
I can upgrade the tonearm on the ProJect but I see no reason to do so. That tone arm is proballyly very comparable to the tone arms you suggested to upgrade the Techncis with. What the picture fails to show are the three spring loaded adjustable feet underneath that provides all the damping and leveling functions. I used to have a turntable that floated and I'll never go that route again. Every foot step was transmitted to that turntable causing it to skip.

As far as speed accuracy goes, I doubt very much that I would here a difference between the Project and the Technics. If it can't be heard, why go there? There is "speed box" that I could buy that will bring me the accuracy of the technics but I`m debating if its worth it. Its only $100.

I can also upgrade the platter to an acrylic one but will that really buy me any performance improvement? It runs amazingly quiet now.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
COnsidering purchgasing vinyl off of ebay, here's a quick description of the terms used to desribe vinyl.

http://www.examiner.com/x-930-Los-Angeles-Vinyl-Records-Examiner~y2008m10d15-Vinyl-Record-Grading-for-Beginners


WMAX..Any thoughts on this? I guess its a good platform for evaluating cartridges and tonearms.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10067309-1.html


http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_10678760?source=most_emailed
My experience purchasing LPs from most eBay sellers has been disappointing.
Fortunately I have had a pretty extensive collection of my own.

I did purchase quote a number of good LPs from a seller in England who was selling off his uncles collection, which was vast. He was a single eccentric Englishman, who was an electrical engineer with the MOD, and had been a radio man with the merchant navy in WW II. He also built quite a lot of his electronics. He spent all his cash, on electronic gear, records and tapes.
When he died his house packed full.

The auction of his gear was fascinating. Just about anything from the wartime and postwar era that was any good was there, plus a lot of rare curios. I had to help the seller work out what a lot of the gear was. Some of the war time gear was very difficult.

Anyhow on the auction were lots of Decca cartridges, Ortofons and Goldrings, SME arms and parts. There was one of the largest collections of Garrard 301 turntables I've ever seen. I figured the records were likely in excellent condition, and they were, just like mine. I also bought a few items of equipment, especially SME parts, a couple of Auriol lifts and a Goldring moving coil cartridge.

From other sellers I only had one good buy, and that was a boxed set of organ music from Helmut Walcha on archive. Otherwise the sellers had lied through their teeth, and or could not recognize records that had worn grooves as a result of having been played with flat irons for pickup cartridges and trowels for styli. I got fed up dishing out negative feedback, and switched to purchasing reel to reel tapes.

The sellers thought they had good equipment for testing, but I noted a high rate of inferior cartridges, including DJ scratch types.

The LP is capable of first class reproduction, but not if the disc has had poor handling or just one playing on inferior equipment.
 
poutanen

poutanen

Full Audioholic
COnsidering purchgasing vinyl off of ebay, here's a quick description of the terms used to desribe vinyl.

http://www.examiner.com/x-930-Los-Angeles-Vinyl-Records-Examiner~y2008m10d15-Vinyl-Record-Grading-for-Beginners
Actually I've had good luck on eBay. Just like any other purchase, the item must match the description, so if it says excellent quality and it isn't when you get it, you still have options as a buyer to get your money back.

I haven't had anything shipped though, I always win the auctions for local sellers, and pick up the records myself (that way I can do at least a quick visual to make sure the thing isn't scratched to ****)...
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
I just got my turntable set up today. It was awesome to go through my old vinyl and listen to stuff that I either didn't get on CD or sounds better than CD. Here's a snapshot:

 
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