UPDATED: Mark L. Schifter, PLEADS GUILTY to suspicion of charity fraud

[T2T]

This kind of thing is the real beauty of the mls saga. I'm pretty sure that nuance and laserman are both pretty good guys, but they clash here as part of the domino effect from mls. On another forum you have guys who have been tight for years taking shots at each other. Thanks Mark.

Mark has had quite a far reaching effect on many of us. While I don't currently own any VA321 gear, I did own 2 pair of towers, 2 pair of X-LS, 2 X-CS and a MFW-15 at one time, this whole situation makes me tense and even a bit angry. I'm very thankful that everything has been brought forward and things are where they currently are because the mess had to be stopped. The anger I have is internalized at myself for being so dumb to believe what was being said and promised by MLS.

 

[NicolasKL]

I'm honored I "inspired" you to make your first post...riddled with false accusations and insults. How wonderful!

I liked some of AV123's products a while back and even recommended them, but I never forced anyone's hand, and I always recommended people audition before they buy. I didn't get any free products for doing so, nor any discounts. Dunno how that makes me a cult follower or shill, but whatever... Anyway, when things started getting fishy with AV123 and the complaints started rolling in, I did not defend Mark or AV123. I'll admit it was a little hard to swallow at first, as I actually thought he was a decent guy, but the truth became plain as day. I've been recommending people stay away from AV123 for over a year. Look or ask around - you'll see.

Concerning Salk, heck yes I like their products, and I'll recommend them whenever I want to. It also helps Jim isn't a crook and his products sound great. I recommend products that sound good to me; plain and simple. It took me years to find a speaker I was able to live with (I auditioned dozens). I've never forced anyone's hand, so being accused of being a shill is ridiculous, but you're entitled to your opinion. Call me whatever you want - doesn't bug me. I'll continue to search out good products and recommend them, and if that makes me a "fanboy," so be it.

As for single handedly inspiring others to buy AV123 products, how? I started a thread about my search; that's it. If that "inspired people" there is nothing I can do about it. I never forced anyone or hounded them. That thread was more for me to keep record of my "journey" than anything else. Fortunately I met some cool people along the way whom I consider good friends to this day.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but you're way off.

Saying that you liked their products and recommended them doesn't really tell the story accurately. You aggressively attacked people with legitimate complaints because they were speaking ill of the company. That's what made you a fanboy, not simply recommending products. At avs some of your posts were dredged up as an example of some of the worst heckling that people with problems received at av122 forum. If you've forgotten those posts maybe you should reread them, because it seems to me that you're practicing a bit of revisionist history.

 

[Slee_Stack]

I have a very different perspective on this. I doubt anyone saw Mark as a holy being, but would agree that many saw him as a good man and perhaps even a heroic man. Much of this perception was derived from his active support of charities dedicated to improving the human condition.

As I see it, the "failing" of those who fell victim to this situation was that they placed trust in another person who established himself as a standup kind of guy. I cannot accept that as a failing. I have chosen to trust people as a matter of principal. Yes, I have been stabbed in the back occasionally, but the rewards from relations built on mutual trust and respect are substantial. I guess I am one to "repeat those exact same mistakes over and over again" as you put it, but I see it as a better option than the alternative.

Sorry, but I see MLS as a special type of scum who preys on the better qualities of people, and I hope there is a special place in hell (should such a place exist) for his type. His behavior erodes our society, bringing us closer to those less fortunate societies which have so little trust that they cannot function.

The blame falls wholly on Mark.
Kudu's to those that donated to his charity drives and supported (through their purchases) the innovative entrepreneur's startup. IMHO, these are good people, not "flawed" people!

I like your viewpoint and WANT to be more trusting, but likely won't be.

Should we continue on, hoping a third party will bring it to our attention when something is wrong/shady/illegal?

Or should we accept some small piece of responsibility?

While ideally the blame does fall entirely on Mark, I feel we (as community supporters) need to be more 'neutral'.

As you point out, we lose a piece of our good nature by being less trusting, or we continue to contribute to a wrong by choosing to remain ignorant.

Which is better? I don't know.

 

[Nuance AH]

S

Saying that you liked their products and recommended them doesn't really tell the story accurately. You aggressively attacked people with legitimate complaints because they were speaking ill of the company. That's what made you a fanboy, not simply recommending products. At avs some of your posts were dredged up as an example of some of the worst heckling that people with problems received at av122 forum. If you've forgotten those posts maybe you should reread them, because it seems to me that you're practicing a bit of revisionist history.

Show me where I heckled someone who had legitimate customer service issues with av123. Its been a while since I had something positive to say about av123.

If you're talking about me giving anti-ID companies some heckling, sure, I have done that. I honestly don't recall heckling someone who got screwed by MLS, though.

 

[randyb]

I'm honored I "inspired" you to make your first post...riddled with false accusations and insults. How wonderful!

I liked some of AV123's products a while back and even recommended them, but I never forced anyone's hand, and I always recommended people audition before they buy. I didn't get any free products for doing so, nor any discounts. Dunno how that makes me a cult follower or shill, but whatever... Anyway, when things started getting fishy with AV123 and the complaints started rolling in, I did not defend Mark or AV123. I'll admit it was a little hard to swallow at first, as I actually thought he was a decent guy, but the truth became plain as day. I've been recommending people stay away from AV123 for over a year. Look or ask around - you'll see.

Concerning Salk, heck yes I like their products, and I'll recommend them whenever I want to. It also helps Jim isn't a crook and his products sound great. I recommend products that sound good to me; plain and simple. It took me years to find a speaker I was able to live with (I auditioned dozens). I've never forced anyone's hand, so being accused of being a shill is ridiculous, but you're entitled to your opinion. Call me whatever you want - doesn't bug me. I'll continue to search out good products and recommend them, and if that makes me a "fanboy," so be it.

As for single handedly inspiring others to buy AV123 products, how? I started a thread about my search; that's it. If that "inspired people" there is nothing I can do about it. I never forced anyone or hounded them. That thread was more for me to keep record of my "journey" than anything else. Fortunately I met some cool people along the way whom I consider good friends to this day.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but you're way off.

I will only offer my experience. I was leery of MLS for several years and thought he had the earmarks of a con. That said, I had no proof only suspicions. Some of that suspicion came about because of how the Rockets got off the ground (sorry about that) and Pierce the first crossover guy. **** Pierce is a notoriously private guy about contracts he has with clients but some of the posts and the fallout when Richie took over made me suspect that something was going on behind scenes....but it was just a feeling.

On the other side of the coin is Jim Salk. He is all about speakers and really doesn't want the center of the limelight to be on him. I had the priviledge to have him and his wife spend the night at my house when he delivered my HT-3's after a Rocky Mtn Audio show. He is about as far from MLS as can be. That and the fact that he only hosts spot on a forum and he has Dennis Murphy who receives no renumeration for his work and posts objectively (or states his bias up front) and you have a totally different world than AV123.

However, I can see some other mfg forums that start to smell a little cultish that shall not be named. I think when the owner's personality becomes the product rather than the other way around, you may have trouble brewing.

 

[Nuance AH]

Like I already mentioned, I was fooled by Mark too; thought he was a good guy. I was wrong. When I realized things weren't right, I told people about it. And when I realized he wasn't in the right, I did the same.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16184161&postcount=16
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16182824&postcount=9
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16328492&postcount=5

Here is a thread where I actually side with the OP; one that you participated in, Nicolas.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1115799&highlight=av123

I used to think AV123 offered some decent stuff, but I have the right to change my mind about that company when they start dealing in a shady way. It doesn't matter if I was there biggest supporter (not even close); once the BS became obvious I recanted my previous statements and advised people to be careful and/or not purchase at all. Had I known Mark was a crook, I would have screamed it from the mountain tops. No one wants to see people get ripped off.

If I somehow offended someone by recommending AV123 products, I apologize. Its not my job to babysit that company you know, so unfortunately I didn't realize things were shady until the complaints were already piling up. Looks like Randy was smarter than I; good for him.

So just so we're clear, I liked some of AV123's products, but I would never recommend them after the customer service issues they had, and now especially since the president literally robbed people. Charity fraud...wow - that's low. Call me what you will, but none of this is my fault.

 

[gonk]

I think when the owner's personality becomes the product rather than the other way around, you may have trouble brewing.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Nuance AH]

Nicolas,

I found one example; you're right. It was just one thread, but you are correct. I admit I was in the wrong. I thought the OP just wanted to smear ID companies, as was common practice at the time on AVS. I was wrong. It should be known, though, the OP should have probably just asked for his money back right away. He did chose to wait over half a year. Still, I regret accusing him of intentionally smearing AV123. I was in the wrong, and can admit that.

Like I said, I was fooled by that company too, which I regret, of course. I am far from perfect. My apologies.

 

[Alex2507]

I was in the wrong ... My apologies.

I forgive you ... Post in peace my son.

 

[randyb]

I forgive you ... Post in peace my son.

Me too Nuance is a good guy and is passionate about the hobby, he gets a thumbs up from me.

 

[laserman]

Alex2507, let me officially welcome you back to this thread…probably not! IRRC, I thought several posts ago you stated you were leaving this thread. Dang, aren’t you a man of your word? I guess you still have a mess more spin left in your soup bowl to hurl around.

Okay, Nuance you have looked at the trail of posts you left behind (aka - in the mirror) and apologized for what you stated on forums publicly. Apology for that is duly accepted.

What’s still troubling is what you stated in PM’s to folks who didn’t agree with you on the AV123 stuff and more recently the Salk products. My putting the spot light on you is in no way an attempt to demean Mr. Salk. Many people feel he puts out a fine number of offerings. You just seem to be shining the apple a little too much on AC and AVS forums for my taste. There are dozens of other owners, yet you are the one who is constantly beating the Salk drum.

I think anyone with a critical eye would recognize that if they took the time to look you up and just read all your threads. Most folks don’t and accept you and maybe one other person's word and with a leap of faith order them without auditioning them. One never reads any real negative reviews and yet we see product on the secondary market for various reasons. Remember how Topround called you on the carpet for this very behavior a couple of months ago? He ended up with a timeout by the AC powers that be. Bubinga baby!

I don’t know if Jim gave you a special deal for what you do and I don’t care. You need to realize other folks have different tastes, room acoustics, and electronic gear in their equation to reach a conclusion on what will work for them, not you.

I'm sorry for taking this thread off topic but Brandon was owed a response.

For the person who PM’d me – I found out I need 5 posts to respond, so it may be a while before I respond.

 

[randyb]

Alex2507, let me officially welcome you back to this thread…probably not! IRRC, I thought several posts ago you stated you were leaving this thread. Dang, aren’t you a man of your word? I guess you still have a mess more spin left in your soup bowl to hurl around.

Okay, Nuance you have looked at the trail of posts you left behind (aka - in the mirror) and apologized for what you stated on forums publicly. Apology for that is duly accepted.

What’s still troubling is what you stated in PM’s to folks who didn’t agree with you on the AV123 stuff and more recently the Salk products. My putting the spot light on you is in no way an attempt to demean Mr. Salk. Many people feel he puts out a fine number of offerings. You just seem to be shining the apple a little too much on AC and AVS forums for my taste. There are dozens of other owners, yet you are the one who is constantly beating the Salk drum.

I think anyone with a critical eye would recognize that if they took the time to look you up and just read all your threads. Most folks don’t and accept you and maybe one other person's word and with a leap of faith order them without auditioning them. One never reads any real negative reviews and yet we see product on the secondary market for various reasons. Remember how Topround called you on the carpet for this very behavior a couple of months ago? He ended up with a timeout by the AC powers that be. Bubinga baby!

I don’t know if Jim gave you a special deal for what you do and I don’t care. You need to realize other folks have different tastes, room acoustics, and electronic gear in their equation to reach a conclusion on what will work for them, not you.

I'm sorry for taking this thread off topic but Brandon was owed a response.

For the person who PM’d me – I found out I need 5 posts to respond, so it may be a while before I respond.

It seems your points have been made. You don't trust Brandon and you have implied that taints Salk's products (with a suggestion that he got a deal) since he was an AV123 supporter. I don't agree with the Salk conclusions you have made, but to think that any one manufacturer will please everyone is kind of rediculous anyway. Frankly, someone is always beating some drum about a product they like. As I recall, Audioholics started with the RBH Status Decimo and the entire Status line. I ended up buying some Status speakers but ended up liking the HT-3's better. Back to that Schifter fellow.

 

[Nuance AH]

Alex2507, let me officially welcome you back to this thread…probably not! IRRC, I thought several posts ago you stated you were leaving this thread. Dang, aren’t you a man of your word? I guess you still have a mess more spin left in your soup bowl to hurl around.

Okay, Nuance you have looked at the trail of posts you left behind (aka - in the mirror) and apologized for what you stated on forums publicly. Apology for that is duly accepted.

What’s still troubling is what you stated in PM’s to folks who didn’t agree with you on the AV123 stuff and more recently the Salk products. My putting the spot light on you is in no way an attempt to demean Mr. Salk. Many people feel he puts out a fine number of offerings. You just seem to be shining the apple a little too much on AC and AVS forums for my taste. There are dozens of other owners, yet you are the one who is constantly beating the Salk drum.

I think anyone with a critical eye would recognize that if they took the time to look you up and just read all your threads. Most folks don’t and accept you and maybe one other person's word and with a leap of faith order them without auditioning them. One never reads any real negative reviews and yet we see product on the secondary market for various reasons. Remember how Topround called you on the carpet for this very behavior a couple of months ago? He ended up with a timeout by the AC powers that be. Bubinga baby!

I don’t know if Jim gave you a special deal for what you do and I don’t care. You need to realize other folks have different tastes, room acoustics, and electronic gear in their equation to reach a conclusion on what will work for them, not you.

I'm sorry for taking this thread off topic but Brandon was owed a response.

For the person who PM’d me – I found out I need 5 posts to respond, so it may be a while before I respond.

Seems like you're trying to turn this into an argument, perhaps because you have some beef with me that you're not coming forward with. Whatever it is, I am cool with you not liking me. Your opinion of me is yours to make, but it is one I disagree with. I have never been discounted anything from Salk or AV123, and I would never "beat my drum" for a company if they offered me something like that. That's now how I work. If I find a product I like, I tell people, and in most cases I recommend other products along with that product. You should know that, considering you seem to follow my posts. I am aware people have differing opinions than I, and I welcome them. The world would be a boring place if everyone agreed with just me. Of course, a little debating is always fun too. I am also aware that people aren't just going to buy based on my opinion, which is why you always see me telling people to audition first (even if its Salk speakers). I am not a salesman; just a satisfied customer.

As for Topround - he and I have PMd back and forth, and I had no hard feelings for him when he "called me out." In fact, I really like the guy and think he's quite funny. He knows this. Everyone knows I love Salk, and if that bothers you you'll just have to deal with it, because I won't stop posting about their products. Whether those people go with Salk doesn't matter to me, so long as they are happy with their decision.

As for the AV123 thing, I put faith in a company I thought was good; I was mistaken. Haven't you ever made a mistake? Well, I admit mine, so there you have it.

I don't know who you are, but you seem to know me. I am sorry I rubbed you the wrong way; was not my intention. If you have a beef with me, just come forward with it. PM's would probably be better, but if its a public trial you're attempting here, that's your choice. This probably isn't the place for it, though. Anyway, I wish you the best, even if you hate me.

 

[MapleSyrup]

We all need a group hug.

 

[bandphan]

We all need a group hug.

Group Hug? How about some CORN

http://imod.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/sexy-butt.jpg

 

[Alex2507]

Dang, aren’t you a man of your word?

Nope, I'm a liar ... always have been.

So is MLS still in jail with a 1/2 million dollar bail hanging over his head and for once I think I might enjoy hearing from a legal type on what the sentencing out come might be like. I read one or two of those articles and was sort of impressed by the take.

http://imod.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/sexy-butt.jpg

Wow ... just wow. Now I gotta go get this dealt with.

It's like a kick stand.

... and I'm the one who gets put on probation for being ridiculously off topic.

 

[m-fine]

I f we believe some of the allegations on what Mark spent the Charity money on, I would have to say that picture is very much on topic for this thread.

I would suggest reviewing the lyrics to Dupree's Diamond Blues to get a little perspective.

 

[Chu Gai]

I f we believe some of the allegations on what Mark spent the Charity money on, I would have to say that picture is very much on topic for this thread.

I would suggest reviewing the lyrics to Dupree's Diamond Blues to get a little perspective.

He spent it on a lot of things that's for sure.

 

[droht]

Regarding fanboyish recommendations and people smearing companies, I think you need to do your research and eliminate the most extreme opinions on both ends of the spectrum. Those folks tend to have the most subjective feelings and generally should not be trusted.

I recommended av123 x-speakers a few years back, and I am not so bothered by that even now. They were very good speakers for the money, with unmatched aesthetics at that price point. Hell, I even recall recommending them, on the used market only, sometime late last year. What I obviously regret now is talking up the company and the man behind it.

 

[cschang]

I recommended av123 x-speakers a few years back, and I am not so bothered by that even now. They were very good speakers for the money, with unmatched aesthetics at that price point. Hell, I even recall recommending them, on the used market only, sometime late last year. What I obviously regret now is talking up the company and the man behind it.

The X-LS is an interesting study.

I have heard three different pairs in the same room. Two of the pairs were standard, and sounded very different. The third was Ninja'd and sounded similar to one of the standard pair.

My thoughts were that of the two standard pair, one pair was closer to spec than the other, and that the Ninja'd pair was also (obviously?) closer to spec.