Under Couch Subwoofer?

[GO-NAD!]

Commercial subs have MANY compromises. Many of which result in a lower quality product to the end user.

The 8W7 without eq will easily surpass what you currently have.

I will get some pricing for you on those two drivers.

The under couch option would be night & day (with a DCX) compared to your present set up.

My outdoor testing brings up a question though. If my present sub's FR is flat(ish) closer to the corner of the room, does it imply that those lower frequencies would be exaggerated in the same spot when using a 8W7/10W7? In other words, the undercouch position could actually be the better position for a more capable sub?

If that's the case, I may need equalization regardless of the enclosure design I go with. Sigh...

The outdoor measurements really threw me though. I would've thought that the corner position would've boosted more than the 25Hz - 40Hz range. In other words, I would expect to see 40Hz - 80Hz boosted proportionately as well. Odd...

I intend to take some more measurements with the sub in other locations, just to see what other placement options there might be. I have to do it during the week, right after work and before the rest of the brood gets home, as they find test tones a tad annoying. Can't understand that at all.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The under couch option would be night & day (with a DCX) compared to your present set up.

I have no doubts about that. I have a feeling I'll need a dcx, whichever enclosure I go with. I know, deep down, that the undercouch enclosure, with the dcx is likely the best option for me. If it seems like I'm doing what ever I can to avoid a dcx, it stems from the fact that it looks intimidating to me. I know you guys will offer all the assistance I need to set it up. That still doesn't change the trepidation I feel.

I looked at the DCX progran from the Behringer website and it looks like gobbledy-gook to me.

I'd still like an idea how much those w7 drivers would cost me, as I'm still debating in my mind about which way to go. It may be silly, as the final sound is the number one priority, but those drivers are so sweeeet and a nice enclosure with a zebrawood veneer would look soooo sharp.

I'm going to post a couple of questions in my "DCX2496 Questions" thread, so anyone who might be interested can have a look.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Got prices yet...?

Annunaki, I was wondering if you were able to get prices for the W7 drivers yet? I've given my plans further thought and I'm wondering if considering the W7s is just "mission creep", as they call it in the military. I'm still curious though.

Would it be accurate to say that the W7s are designed to provide superior SQ and LF extension, at high SPL? Whereas, the W1V2 can provide equally good SQ, but with less LF extension and SPL capabilities? If the W1V2 can meet great SQ criteria, then it will probably be the most suitable driver for me.

After all, it is for music. So, deep, deep LF capability is not required. Plus, it's rare that I exceed 90 dB when I'm listening. Is it wiser for me to stick with the W1V2? As leery as I am of the DCX, I think it'll be my best route, along with a 10W1V2 sub, to great SQ for my stereo. Unless you convince me otherwise....

 

[annunaki]

Sorry pal! I have been very busy.

I should be able to get you some prices this week.

The W7 was designed to provide clean uncolored bass at any output level.

The W1v2 has benefited heavily from the design of the W7 & W6v2. It has better linearity than most conventional type woofers and has very good sound quality. It simply has a much lower performance threshold and does not have the same output capability.

The W7 & W6v2 do sound better as they offer effortless reproduction of sound, but it is not a massive increase due to the pedigree the W1v2 has followed.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Sorry pal! I have been very busy.

I should be able to get you some prices this week.

The W7 was designed to provide clean uncolored bass at any output level.

The W1v2 has benefited heavily from the design of the W7 & W6v2. It has better linearity than most conventional type woofers and has very good sound quality. It simply has a much lower performance threshold and does not have the same output capability.

The W7 & W6v2 do sound better as they offer effortless reproduction of sound, but it is not a massive increase due to the pedigree the W1v2 has followed.

Hey, you're doing me all the favours, so no need to apologize! But if you could give me an idea of W7 prices by the end of the week, I'd appreciate it. Crutchfield.ca is offering free shipping and a 5% discount until the end of the month. So, if I decide to go with the 10W1V2 driver, I want to order it by then. It won't be a massive saving, but better in my pocket than theirs!

So, based on your knowledge of these drivers, which would do the job for me? Of course, it would be easier to go with the W7 to be sure of it. But, for my application, would the W1V2 do what I ask of it? I'm thinking that based on the prices I see for the W7's at various websites, the discount you might get would have to be pretty significant for me to justify it. I hope that doesn't come across as unappreciative.

The thought has crossed my mind, that if I'm not content with the undercouch design, I could get another 10W1V2 and build a pair of stereo subs. I could do that for the price of 1 8W7! I'm not sure if two 10W1V2s would need more power than a BASH 300 could provide. Just an idea in the back of my mind...

 

[lsiberian]

Hey, you're doing me all the favours, so no need to apologize! But if you could give me an idea of W7 prices by the end of the week, I'd appreciate it. Crutchfield.ca is offering free shipping and a 5% discount until the end of the month. So, if I decide to go with the 10W1V2 driver, I want to order it by then. It won't be a massive saving, but better in my pocket than theirs!

So, based on your knowledge of these drivers, which would do the job for me? Of course, it would be easier to go with the W7 to be sure of it. But, for my application, would the W1V2 do what I ask of it? I'm thinking that based on the prices I see for the W7's at various websites, the discount you might get would have to be pretty significant for me to justify it. I hope that doesn't come across as unappreciative.

The thought has crossed my mind, that if I'm not content with the undercouch design, I could get another 10W1V2 and build a pair of stereo subs. I could do that for the price of 1 8W7! I'm not sure if two 10W1V2s would need more power than a BASH 300 could provide. Just an idea in the back of my mind...

You should also look at Soundsplinter subs. they are rebadged TC Sounds drivers. They can run you less than the W7.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I've decided to stick with the 10W1V2 driver, do the undercouch sub and see how it performs. If I don't like it, it'll just be some MDF and a bunch of my time lost, as I won't be applying any finish to it.

However, if I decide that I'd rather go with a pair of subs, I'll just get another driver and start over. If I do that, will a BASH 300 be sufficient to drive two? Or, should I play it safe and get a BASH 500 up front, just in case. I'd rather not be stuck with the BASH 300, if I need a larger amp down the road.

 

[just-some-guy]

something is telling me that you will be very impressed.

 

[annunaki]

Hey. I am really sorry that I did not get these to you sooner, but the pricing I can get on the 10W7 was about $425.00 ish and about $350.00 ish on the 8w7. Do remember that these are from an authorized dealer of course. I was expecting a bit better pricing than that but it is what it is I guess.

Sorry again I have not been able to get anything for you sooner.

 

[annunaki]

I've decided to stick with the 10W1V2 driver, do the undercouch sub and see how it performs. If I don't like it, it'll just be some MDF and a bunch of my time lost, as I won't be applying any finish to it.

However, if I decide that I'd rather go with a pair of subs, I'll just get another driver and start over. If I do that, will a BASH 300 be sufficient to drive two? Or, should I play it safe and get a BASH 500 up front, just in case. I'd rather not be stuck with the BASH 300, if I need a larger amp down the road.

Bash 300 will drive two of them adequately in most rooms. The 500 will provide a bit more headroom, but is not a necessity. The W1v2 series are very efficient in vented applications.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Hey. I am really sorry that I did not get these to you sooner, but the pricing I can get on the 10W7 was about $425.00 ish and about $350.00 ish on the 8w7. Do remember that these are from an authorized dealer of course. I was expecting a bit better pricing than that but it is what it is I guess.

Sorry again I have not been able to get anything for you sooner.

That's OK, I would've been surprised if you could get a better deal than that.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Bash 300 will drive two of them adequately in most rooms. The 500 will provide a bit more headroom, but is not a necessity. The W1v2 series are very efficient in vented applications.

Ok, that's good. I know I've been a pain in the rump for you, with all my questions and I apologize for that.

But, I've really been mulling over the idea of 2 small subs, which I think might provide better integration with my mains. If so, would it be better to go with a pair of 8W1V2's? I've been trying to convince my wife that it would be better, but in order to convince her, they'll have to be really compact.

I've looked at the enclosure sketches on the JL website for the 10's and 8's. The vented enclosure for the 8" is very compact, at less than 1 cubic foot (outside dimensions). The F3 for that enclosure is around 35Hz. Could I expect much deeper extension in-room?

The 10" enclosure is about 1.9 cubic feet (outside dimensions). I don't think I'd get away with something that size, even though it's quite small by AH standards.

 

[annunaki]

Ok, that's good. I know I've been a pain in the rump for you, with all my questions and I apologize for that.

But, I've really been mulling over the idea of 2 small subs, which I think might provide better integration with my mains. If so, would it be better to go with a pair of 8W1V2's? I've been trying to convince my wife that it would be better, but in order to convince her, they'll have to be really compact.

I've looked at the enclosure sketches on the JL website for the 10's and 8's. The vented enclosure for the 8" is very compact, at less than 1 cubic foot (outside dimensions). The F3 for that enclosure is around 35Hz. Could I expect much deeper extension in-room?

The 10" enclosure is about 1.9 cubic feet (outside dimensions). I don't think I'd get away with something that size, even though it's quite small by AH standards.

No pain. I like this stuff!!

The enclosures on their site are for CAR AUDIO only.

For my buddy's in wall sub we are doing 1.3ft^3 net volume per 8" driver with a tuning frequency of about 25hz.

You could do the 8" drivers but I would not do the enclosures they suggest on their site.

 

[GO-NAD!]

No pain. I like this stuff!!

The enclosures on their site are for CAR AUDIO only.

For my buddy's in wall sub we are doing 1.3ft^3 net volume per 8" driver with a tuning frequency of about 25hz.

You could do the 8" drivers but I would not do the enclosures they suggest on their site.

I knew they were for car enclosures, but I didn't realize it would make a difference.

So, how small could I make enclosures for a pair of 8"s (or 10"s) and still have good LF extension for music? I've tried to use WinISD, but I can't get it to work for me.

 

[annunaki]

For the 10" one could do a 1.3ft^3 net internal volume enclosure.

External dimensions of 18" H x 14.5" W x 17.5" D. Slot vent at 1" x 13" x 43-5/8" long tuning to 24hz. Yields an anechoic F3 of 28.8hz and an upper -3db point of 87hz using a 2nd order x-over lowpass at 80hz. This design also calls for a 2nd order highpass filter at 20hz.

Vent velocity with 300 watts rms is only 16m/s. This design would allow for light bracing and the driver's displacement.

The vent displaces about .574 ft^3. All measurements assume the use of 3/4 material.


An ideal enclosure for this driver would be about 1.8ft^3 net internal.

External dimensions of 19.5" H x 15.5" W x 19.5" H. A slot vent of 1.25" x 14" x 41.85" L. This yields an anechoic F3 of 24hz and an upper -3db point of 87hz again using the same lowpass and highpass filters. Vent velocity is just over 15m/s with 300 rms. Larger bracing could be afforded here but not by a lot.






With the 8W1v2 an enclosure (exterior dimensions) 18.5" H x 10.5" W x 18.5" D with a slot vent of 1.25" x 9" x 35.75" yields a tuning frequency of 28hz. This offers an anechoic F3 of 27hz and an upper -3db point of 87hz. Again 20hz highpass 2nd order & 80hz lowpass 2nd order assumed. Net internal of 1.0ft^3 allowing for some driver & bracing displacement.



There is a 2.5db anechoic difference in output across the usable range in favor of the 10w1v2 over the 8.

 

[GO-NAD!]

For the 10" one could do a 1.3ft^3 net internal volume enclosure.

External dimensions of 18" H x 14.5" W x 17.5" D. Slot vent at 1" x 13" x 43-5/8" long tuning to 24hz. Yields an anechoic F3 of 28.8hz and an upper -3db point of 87hz using a 2nd order x-over lowpass at 80hz. This design also calls for a 2nd order highpass filter at 20hz.

Vent velocity with 300 watts rms is only 16m/s. This design would allow for light bracing and the driver's displacement.

The vent displaces about .574 ft^3. All measurements assume the use of 3/4 material.


An ideal enclosure for this driver would be about 1.8ft^3 net internal.

External dimensions of 19.5" H x 15.5" W x 19.5" H. A slot vent of 1.25" x 14" x 41.85" L. This yields an anechoic F3 of 24hz and an upper -3db point of 87hz again using the same lowpass and highpass filters. Vent velocity is just over 15m/s with 300 rms. Larger bracing could be afforded here but not by a lot.






With the 8W1v2 an enclosure (exterior dimensions) 18.5" H x 10.5" W x 18.5" D with a slot vent of 1.25" x 9" x 35.75" yields a tuning frequency of 28hz. This offers an anechoic F3 of 27hz and an upper -3db point of 87hz. Again 20hz highpass 2nd order & 80hz lowpass 2nd order assumed. Net internal of 1.0ft^3 allowing for some driver & bracing displacement.



There is a 2.5db anechoic difference in output across the usable range in favor of the 10w1v2 over the 8.

Thanks a lot! That settles it - they are all too large for WAF.

I will build the under couch design this winter. Then, I I'll see how well it integrates with the mains for music. If it isn't ideal, I'll plan for a pair of in-ceilings. My biggest concern about that would be resonance in the ceiling. I don't know if that would be an issue or not.

 

[annunaki]

Thanks a lot! That settles it - they are all too large for WAF.

I will build the under couch design this winter. Then, I I'll see how well it integrates with the mains for music. If it isn't ideal, I'll plan for a pair of in-ceilings. My biggest concern about that would be resonance in the ceiling. I don't know if that would be an issue or not.

It will all depend upon how you integrate it and isolate it with/from the ceiling.

Too large? Those are pretty small enclosures. What do you expect a driver that defy's physics?

 

[GO-NAD!]

It will all depend upon how you integrate it and isolate it with/from the ceiling.

Too large? Those are pretty small enclosures. What do you expect a driver that defy's physics?

To clarify, I don't think they're too large, but SWMBO does. I was just hoping for a miracle, I suppose...

I had an idea about the in-ceiling design. The enclosure could of course, be almost any size - I'm thinking about 13.5" wide (to fit between the joists) and about 16" long, to make room for the vent. It could be whatever height required. The hole in the ceiling would be slightly larger, to allow the enclosure to slide up into the attic. Then, screwed through the ceiling into the joists would be a piece of MDF to act as a "false" baffle". There would be cut outs in this MDF to match the ones in the enclosure. The enclosure would then sit on this baffle with a sheet of foam glued and sandwiched between to act as a resonance absorber. That way enclosure would then not be mechanically coupled to the surrounding structure.

Can you picture what I've described and does it make sense? It'll be a lot more work to do two of these vice the single undercouch, so I'll try that first.

 

[annunaki]

To clarify, I don't think they're too large, but SWMBO does. I was just hoping for a miracle, I suppose...

I had an idea about the in-ceiling design. The enclosure could of course, be almost any size - I'm thinking about 13.5" wide (to fit between the joists) and about 16" long, to make room for the vent. It could be whatever height required. The hole in the ceiling would be slightly larger, to allow the enclosure to slide up into the attic. Then, screwed through the ceiling into the joists would be a piece of MDF to act as a "false" baffle". There would be cut outs in this MDF to match the ones in the enclosure. The enclosure would then sit on this baffle with a sheet of foam glued and sandwiched between to act as a resonance absorber. That way enclosure would then not be mechanically coupled to the surrounding structure.

Can you picture what I've described and does it make sense? It'll be a lot more work to do two of these vice the single undercouch, so I'll try that first.

I am with you on this. A fair amount of work but would have good results I am sure. Plan, plan, plan if this option is executed.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I am with you on this. A fair amount of work but would have good results I am sure. Plan, plan, plan if this option is executed.

This is a quick cross-sectional sketch of an in-ceiling enclosure. I was a bit leery of doing this at first when I thought about how I was going to integrate it with the ceiling. I figured I would crack plaster and/or have a vibration problem. I couldn't make the ceiling sheetrock part of the enclosure. It would be difficult to properly join the enclosure to the ceiling and I'm sure it would vibrate like crazy. That's why I decided on the under-couch design.

But, when I gave it a bit more thought, I came up with the idea illustrated in the sketch. Of course, it won't have the low profile of a commercial in-wall/ceiling loudspeaker, but it wouldn't be too bad. I just have to convince the boss that it would look quite unobtrusive. She's in the "I'll think about it" stage right now.

If she agrees, I'll do it with a pair of 10W1V2-4's. What do you think of that? I would construct the enclosures during the winter and in the spring, when it's a bit warmer, install them in the ceiling.