Under Couch Subwoofer?

[GO-NAD!]

Some progress - she nixed the undercouch sub. She now has to choose amongst:
a) 1 conventional sub
b) 2 conventional subs
c) 1 In-ceiling sub
d) 2 In-ceiling subs

 

[annunaki]

Testing for best location with the ceiling subs should be considered a priority if attempting this route. It is not too bad though.

Place the sub in the listening position and then do the crawl test, but on a ladder. Find your two best spots and place the subs there.

You will have more placement "flexibility" with the ceiling subs, but moving them afterward is not going to be an option. You can also attempt upgrades with this route as opposed to the others since the enclosure is hidden.

You will want to get the measurements between your rafters before you attempt this option.


In the end it is your call. Either you you decide will provide you with significantly better bass than you currently have.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Testing for best location with the ceiling subs should be considered a priority if attempting this route. It is not too bad though.

Place the sub in the listening position and then do the crawl test, but on a ladder. Find your two best spots and place the subs there.

You will have more placement "flexibility" with the ceiling subs, but moving them afterward is not going to be an option. You can also attempt upgrades with this route as opposed to the others since the enclosure is hidden.

You will want to get the measurements between your rafters before you attempt this option.


In the end it is your call. Either you you decide will provide you with significantly better bass than you currently have.

Yeah, I figured I would have to do some testing before installing in the ceiling. As you say, you can only do it once. The joists are 16" on centre, leaving a space of 14.5". So I figure the enclosure would be 13.5" wide, to ensure there is no contact with the joists (other than the supports, which would be sitting on foam, as in the previously posted sketch).

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[annunaki]

Remember that you will be limited on driver size to about 12" in this case. You may want to consider 12W3v3's or 12W6v2's. Though it is completely dependent on your budget.

I am sure we could come up with a high performing design to suit the application.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Remember that you will be limited on driver size to about 12" in this case. You may want to consider 12W3v3's or 12W6v2's. Though it is completely dependent on your budget.

I am sure we could come up with a high performing design to suit the application.

I thought I'd stick with the 10" drivers we'd already discussed.

An in-ceiling enclosure will definitely be restricted to a 10" driver, because of the way I would install it, although the overall volume won't be a problem at all. There's lotsa room in the attic!

A conventional sub? Well, enclosure size becomes an issue then. If a 12" driver needs a larger enclosure, in order to take advantage of its greater capabilities, I think I'll have to stick with the 10" there as well. If the box doesn't have to be bigger, then it's a possibility.

As for the model, it'll be W1's or W3's if it's a pair. I might be able to do a 10W6V2 for a single.

 

[KEW]

8W7 option

I just started reading through this thread and have to admit that I had to bail at post #60 (to come back later). However, at one point you are asking about flat response without EQ using the 8W7 and I wanted to point you to this link of a model TLS did for this configuration. I was amazed at how nice the FR looked. I don't know if this design could get reworked into a desirable form factor or not.
In the end, you may want to add an EQ to compensate for room effects, but I like the fundamental idea of buying such a top quality driver. You can always rework the enclosure or add EQ later.
Apologies if this is redundant with the entries I have not yet read.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=654864&postcount=24

HTH!

 

[GO-NAD!]

I just started reading through this thread and have to admit that I had to bail at post #60 (to come back later). However, at one point you are asking about flat response without EQ using the 8W7 and I wanted to point you to this link of a model TLS did for this configuration. I was amazed at how nice the FR looked. I don't know if this design could get reworked into a desirable form factor or not.
In the end, you may want to add an EQ to compensate for room effects, but I like the fundamental idea of buying such a top quality driver. You can always rework the enclosure or add EQ later.
Apologies if this is redundant with the entries I have not yet read.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=654864&postcount=24

HTH!

Yeah, it's a longish thread, I know. It's just been a saga figuring out what was going to be acceptable to both me and the wife. The W7 drivers are really appealing, but the price gets a bit hairy. Even W6 drivers are getting a bit on the expensive side. But, if it can be used in a compact enclosure, without having to employ massive amplification, then that could earn a sympathetic hearing. Going without EQ for the short term might be an option worth considering. An F3 of 23 Hz is perfectly acceptable for music purposes. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[annunaki]

Yeah, it's a longish thread, I know. It's just been a saga figuring out what was going to be acceptable to both me and the wife. The W7 drivers are really appealing, but the price gets a bit hairy. Even W6 drivers are getting a bit on the expensive side. But, if it can be used in a compact enclosure, without having to employ massive amplification, then that could earn a sympathetic hearing. Going without EQ for the short term might be an option worth considering. An F3 of 23 Hz is perfectly acceptable for music purposes. Thanks for the suggestion.

With two properly integrated subs, you could do without eq for a bit and add it later. I would suggest a couple of the 12W3v3's in the ceiling or even the Dayton Reference Series 12".

 

[GO-NAD!]

With two properly integrated subs, you could do without eq for a bit and add it later. I would suggest a couple of the 12W3v3's in the ceiling or even the Dayton Reference Series 12".

That's the conundrum - I don't think I'll be able to use 12" drivers. They'll be too wide for an in-ceiling enclosure and I suspect that they would require larger enclosures for conventional subs. So, at the moment, I'm still thinking 10", max.

I'm curious about the difference between W7 and W6 drivers. The 8W7 and 10W6V2 cost about the same. What practical differences, other than physical size, would there be between the 2 drivers?

 

[annunaki]

That's the conundrum - I don't think I'll be able to use 12" drivers. They'll be too wide for an in-ceiling enclosure and I suspect that they would require larger enclosures for conventional subs. So, at the moment, I'm still thinking 10", max.

I'm curious about the difference between W7 and W6 drivers. The 8W7 and 10W6V2 cost about the same. What practical differences, other than physical size, would there be between the 2 drivers?

I am unsure as to why you feel you cannot use 12" subs in the ceiling? If your max enclosure width is 13.5", you can easily fit a 12" on that baffle with room to spare.

The 8W7 and 10W6v2 will be fairly similar performers in similarly tuned vented enclosures. The w6v2 has a surface area advantage, where as the 8w7 has an excursion advantage. The 10w6v2 is not far behind the 8w7 in excursion at .60" vs. .75" (linear one way for both).

 

[GO-NAD!]

I am unsure as to why you feel you cannot use 12" subs in the ceiling? If your max enclosure width is 13.5", you can easily fit a 12" on that baffle with room to spare.

The 8W7 and 10W6v2 will be fairly similar performers in similarly tuned vented enclosures. The w6v2 has a surface area advantage, where as the 8w7 has an excursion advantage. The 10w6v2 is not far behind the 8w7 in excursion at .60" vs. .75" (linear one way for both).

Well, if you look at post #80, the sketch isn't very proportional. If the enclosure is 13.5" wide, and the 12W3 is 12.5" wide OD, there will only be .5" of "shoulder" to rest on the false baffle. I suppose it's physically possible, but I would rather have a bit more overlap for sealing/insulating purposes. I guess the small area where the overlap is that narrow won't make a massive difference. I'll need to sketch it up to scale and take a look.

Why do you suggest using the 12W3V3? We've been discussing 10" drivers pretty much from the start. How would enclosure size requirements differ amongst, just for example, the 8W7, 10W6V2 and the 12W3V3? If I'm told that a conventional sub is the most acceptable, enclosure size is sure to be an issue.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I was also wondering, when you guys give enclosure volumes, such as 2 cu.ft, 3 cu.ft, or use terms like Vb and Total volume, I'm never sure what that includes. When I read a figure given for an enclosure, I interpret that figure to include every cubic inch of air in that enclosure, including the port. Would that be accurate?

 

[annunaki]

Well, if you look at post #80, the sketch isn't very proportional. If the enclosure is 13.5" wide, and the 12W3 is 12.5" wide OD, there will only be .5" of "shoulder" to rest on the false baffle. I suppose it's physically possible, but I would rather have a bit more overlap for sealing/insulating purposes. I guess the small area where the overlap is that narrow won't make a massive difference. I'll need to sketch it up to scale and take a look.

Why do you suggest using the 12W3V3? We've been discussing 10" drivers pretty much from the start. How would enclosure size requirements differ amongst, just for example, the 8W7, 10W6V2 and the 12W3V3? If I'm told that a conventional sub is the most acceptable, enclosure size is sure to be an issue.

I am suggesting 12" drivers for the ceiling only, since size really will not matter. You will get more output with the 12" drivers for better headroom.

If going the route of conventional then surely you are back to the 10" or 8" options.

 

[annunaki]

I was also wondering, when you guys give enclosure volumes, such as 2 cu.ft, 3 cu.ft, or use terms like Vb and Total volume, I'm never sure what that includes. When I read a figure given for an enclosure, I interpret that figure to include every cubic inch of air in that enclosure, including the port. Would that be accurate?

When I use the term net volume, or the term Vb is given it means usable air. Bracing vent displacement and river displacement need to be added to that number to figure the gross volume of the enclosure.

When I supply enclosure dimensions with a suggestion, I include all of that in so "it is what it is" in that situation. No extra figuring needed.

I created an excel program for my own use that figures all of this for me. I simply enter in the internal dimensions of the enclosure & the vent measurements. It then provides me with the net volume.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I am suggesting 12" drivers for the ceiling only, since size really will not matter. You will get more output with the 12" drivers for better headroom.

If going the route of conventional then surely you are back to the 10" or 8" options.

I would assume that to be true if we're talking about different size drivers within the same model line. But, if we compared the 8W7 with the 12W1V3, which driver would provide the most headroom? I would've thought that the 8W7 has greater capabilities - especially when the W7 line costs considerably more.

Other than cost considerations, are there circumstances where a larger driver from a lower model line would be a better choice than a smaller driver from a higher model line (such as those mentioned above)? It's mind boggling sometimes.

I should have a decision on which type(s) of subwoofer design will be acceptable within the next few days. I had no idea it was so complicated to decide...

Then, we can get down to specifics as to the enclosure design. Thank God...

 

[GO-NAD!]

When I use the term net volume, or the term Vb is given it means usable air. Bracing vent displacement and river displacement need to be added to that number to figure the gross volume of the enclosure.

When I supply enclosure dimensions with a suggestion, I include all of that in so "it is what it is" in that situation. No extra figuring needed.

I created an excel program for my own use that figures all of this for me. I simply enter in the internal dimensions of the enclosure & the vent measurements. It then provides me with the net volume.

I must confess that the first 2 paragraphs confuse me. The first paragraph is perfectly clear - start with an empty box of a given volume and add volume to compensate for the wood and driver. But, in the second paragraph, it seems to say that you already added all that.

 

[annunaki]

I must confess that the first 2 paragraphs confuse me. The first paragraph is perfectly clear - start with an empty box of a given volume and add volume to compensate for the wood and driver. But, in the second paragraph, it seems to say that you already added all that.

What I was saying was that when I supply enclosure recommendations on the forums here, I already account for all of those things. So if the enclosure is built to my specifications one will get the intended result.


If simply referencing volume, without dimensions, most people are referring to net volume (including myself).

 

[annunaki]

I would assume that to be true if we're talking about different size drivers within the same model line. But, if we compared the 8W7 with the 12W1V3, which driver would provide the most headroom? I would've thought that the 8W7 has greater capabilities - especially when the W7 line costs considerably more.

Other than cost considerations, are there circumstances where a larger driver from a lower model line would be a better choice than a smaller driver from a higher model line (such as those mentioned above)? It's mind boggling sometimes.

I should have a decision on which type(s) of subwoofer design will be acceptable within the next few days. I had no idea it was so complicated to decide...

Then, we can get down to specifics as to the enclosure design. Thank God...

The 8w7 will exceed the capabilities of say the 12W1v2. It will be very close in terms of output with the 10w6v2 and the 12W3v3 as all have very similar linear displacement.

The advantage to the higher end drivers is linearity as they approach/exceed the xmax point. They remain more linear and therefore offer lower distortion. They also have significantly lower power compression which allows for better dynamics during transient peaks as well as high output operation.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well! I have received a verdict! It'll be in-ceiling. I'll start a new thread, as the title for this one isn't accurate anymore.

 

[walter duque]

Just ran into this little thing.
http://www.sourcespeaker.com/SW10PANCAKE-12-09.html