Ukraine – Russia … not more of the last thread

M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
a coup ???

It's hard to say what's going on. Reports are pouring in fast.Here's a google translation of a post on tass:

>>>"Security measures have been strengthened in Moscow, all the most important facilities, state authorities and transport infrastructure facilities have been taken under increased protection," the law enforcement agencies told us.

According to the interlocutor of the agency, the OMON and SOBR units of the Russian Guard were raised on alarm.

Earlier, several audio recordings with his statements were posted on Prigozhin's Telegram channel. In particular, he claimed that his units were allegedly attacked, blaming the military leadership of the country for this.

The Ministry of Defense called false information about the alleged attack by the Russian Armed Forces on the "rear camps of PMC" Wagner ".<<<


This report suggests that Wagner columns are on the move:


Almost none of this is confirmed though.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Here's a google translation of a BBC Russia post:

>>>Special Forces Detachments flew to Rostov - media

A government official told The Moscow Times that dozens of planes with special forces took off in the direction of Rostov-on-Don a few hours ago. We have previously shown you special equipment in the center of Rostov. And they said that the “Fortress” plan was introduced in the city.

The publication "Zerkalo" got through to the duty unit of the police department of the Voroshilovsky district of the city - they had an interesting conversation. The police said that they did not know anything and "they themselves are in shock."<<<


Rostov-on-Don is near the Ukrainian border:

1687561189921.png


This is speculative on my part, but it certainly seems possible that Russia would send reinforcements into this area if they think Wagner is attempting to send a column into Russia itself.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Even all this could be a diversion, but I am sure Ukraine knows reality there from intercepts and maybe from drones.
Similar to the Allies landing in a different area to draw the Germans to it before landing in Normandy, no?

Let's hope it is for real.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
FWIW, Soldatov says it's not a coup.

>>>This is huge but it is not a coup d'état: Prigozhin's proclaimed objective is to march to Rostov, not Moscow, and all to get rid of Shoigu. His call to the army to join in doesn't sound well articulated. It could mean delusional Prigozhin may still think he can get away with it.<<<


I have yet to see any verified videos or other evidence of Wagner vehicles moving towards Rostov. This video supposedly shows Wagner vehicles moving south towards Rostov, but it's hard to say.

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
From the latest reports from the UK, it does seem a coup attempt is underway in Russia. Apparently Putin's motorcade has just been seen speeding through Moscow. So the inference would be he is speeding to a secure location. These are uncertain times indeed. There were earlier reports of young Russian soldiers surrendering to the Wagner Group. These are confused and uncertain times to say the least. Situations like this in a nuclear power have the potential of a nightmare. I bet there are a lot of analysts and officials loosing sleep in Washington tonight.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Is the first use of nuclear weapons ever justified? A top adviser to Vladimir Putin now says yes | CBC News


A pre-emptive strike would prevent global thermonuclear war? It would more likely trigger one. What a clown. :rolleyes:



I have a hard time accepting that these guys believe their own BS. It's more likely a sign that the Russian regime and plutocracy are well aware of the consequences for them personally should Russia lose to Ukraine. So, desperate times call for more desperate - but empty - nuclear threats.
I have heard about the drinking habits of many Russians, from people who lived there and in Ukraine- it makes me think that they actually do believe their own BS.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The Wagner group are in total control of Rostov-on-Don, on the way to Moscow. The Wagner Group forces were attached by Russian helicopters, about half way to Moscow. There are rumors, and I emphasize rumors, that President Lukashenko of Belarus has fled to Turkey.

This degree of instability in Russia is certainly of grave concern. There are many scenarios of how this could play out. In Europe there is concern of how China will react to this. I think all bets of are off as to how this will play out with China as well quite apart from Russia. However I think more likely than not, a major historic event has begun, and is unfolding.
 
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cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Situations like this in a nuclear power have the potential of a nightmare.
And that is the real scary thing with Putin thinking he is losing control. I just hope the guy keeps his cool and doesn't do something that can kill millions of people if a nuke event goes global..

Makes ya want to watch the 1983 movie " The Day After"
A quote " “You can't see it... you can't feel it... and you can't taste it. But it's here, right now, all around us! It's goin' through you like an X-ray! Right into your cells! What do you think killed all these animals?”

“- Dr. Russell Oakes: Do you understand what's going on in this world?
- Dr. Landowska: Yeah. Stupidity. Has a habit of getting its way.”
talking about the nuclear war

JASON ROBARDS - Dr. Russell Oakes
GEORGE PETRIE - Dr. Landowska

"This is Lawrence. This is Lawrence, Kansas. Is anybody there? Anybody at all? "
 
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M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
If (big if) this map is accurate, Wagner forces are approaching Moscow.


It looks like the Russian forces are desperately trying to slow down Wagner by blocking roads leading into Moscow, digging up roads, mining roads, etc.

The Russian national guard troops are apparently reluctant to attack the Wagner forces head-on.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
To understand Russia & Putin, we have to re-learn some poorly remembered lessons from the Cold War: How to stop thinking like an optimistic American and see the world through Russian eyes. They’re extremely paranoid and have great trouble cooperating with others, even if they’d benefit from cooperating. I’m quoting a Russian proverb from a book, Red Notice by Bill Browder. (I've posted this before, but it seems relevant now.)
One day a poor villager happens upon a magic fish. It could talk. The fish says it will grant him a single wish. Overjoyed, the villager weighs his options: “Maybe a castle? Or even better, a thousand bars of gold? Why not a ship to sail the world?” As the villager is about to make his decision, the fish interrupts to say there is one important caveat: whatever the villager gets, his neighbor will get two of the same. Without skipping a beat, the villager says, “In that case, please poke one of my eyes out.”
The moral is simple: Russians will gladly – gleefully – sacrifice their own success to screw their neighbor. This pessimism infects all their thinking. When first exposed to American optimism, Russians take offense at our confidence, claiming we are both arrogant and naïve about the ways of the world.

Russia probably came by this pessimism honestly from genuine fear. For centuries, they were invaded from the east. Attila the Hun, Tamerlane, Ghengis Khan, and others, all rode out of central Asia, and brutally over-ran Russia. Their best defense was to conquer as much of Asia as possible.

Last March, I posted my thoughts that nothing short of removing Putin from power would lead to peace of some kind. It greatly disturbed me to say that, as I hated the idea that it might take US & NATO troops to do that.
Russia must be stopped. It will not stop on it's own. Putin and his supporters must be removed from power – forcibly if needed. Without that, I see no lasting peace agreements. I can't imagine how Russia might be governed after such an outcome. Military occupation, as with Germany after WW2? I hope not. I only know that without ousting Putin from power, Russia will remain a threat to all of Europe.
During the Cold War, the answer was to fool the Soviets into poking their own eyes out. It took 50 years and trillions of $, and it only succeeded in avoiding a nuclear war while the Soviet Union slowly collapsed from within. Their disastrous invasion of Afghanistan in 1980 helped speed things along near the end of the Cold War. But the threat of NATO was the only thing we know that actually succeeded in blunting the USSR threat during the Cold War.

And now, we see it happening again. Putin & his supporters have apparently poked their own eyes out – again.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
To understand Russia & Putin, we have to re-learn some poorly remembered lessons from the Cold War: How to stop thinking like an optimistic American and see the world through Russian eyes. They’re extremely paranoid and have great trouble cooperating with others, even if they’d benefit from cooperating. I’m quoting a Russian proverb from a book, Red Notice by Bill Browder. (I've posted this before, but it seems relevant now.)

The moral is simple: Russians will gladly – gleefully – sacrifice their own success to screw their neighbor. This pessimism infects all their thinking. When first exposed to American optimism, Russians take offense at our confidence, claiming we are both arrogant and naïve about the ways of the world.

Last March, I posted my thoughts that nothing short of removing Putin from power would lead to peace of some kind. It greatly disturbed me to say that, as I hated the idea that it might take US & NATO troops to do that.

During the Cold War, the answer was to fool the Soviets into poking their own eyes out. It took 50 years and trillions of $, and it only succeeded in avoiding a nuclear war while the Soviet Union slowly collapsed from within. Their disastrous invasion of Afghanistan in 1980 helped speed things along near the end of the Cold War. But the threat of NATO was the only thing we know that actually succeeded in blunting the USSR threat during the Cold War.

And now, we see it happening again. Putin & his supporters have apparently poked their own eyes out – again.
The biggest problem with the second world war, was that we didn't prevent it. Churchill wrote in his memoirs, that it was the "most preventable of all wars." We must not make the same mistake this time. So far, we have not. As soon as Putin threatened a neighbor we supported Ukraine to the hilt.

Now, we must be ready to act more decisively.

Russia may degenerate into a wider civil war, and make no mistake they have one. I personally don't see how Putin survives this debacle. However, it is very uncertain what comes next. This chap Yevgeny Prigozhin is a very nasty piece of work, by all accounts, and more likely than not, more dangerous than Putin, but with better 'street smarts'. He was in prison for twelve years and started a high end Restaurant on Moscow, and got to know Putin. He became his "fixer". Somewhat akin to Cohen and Trump. He now sees his chance. Now his 'army' is packed with imprisoners. So, the question becomes are these just thugs and violent criminals, or are there among there ranks motivated and intelligent political prisoners. I have to think there are quite a few of those, given recent Russian history. So, that could be a spark of hope.

There will be a narrow window of opportunity for intervention. If there is serious instability and brutality by Yevgeny Prigozhin's forces in Russia, then NATO must intervene and impose order. I hope speedy plans are being made. This could require a rapid general mobilization. One thing I do know, is that Russia can't be allowed to run amok and have nukes on the loose.

The big question is: - what will China do?

1). Little or nothing. In its history, China has generally acted to protect and expand trading routes.

2). So, taking that on board, China taking the opportunity to invade Taiwan is high on the list.

3). Less likely, China may move to take back territory it claims in Siberia. This is a resource rich area. The Chinese are likely too smart to make the mistake of fighting on two fronts.

Although there is not much official comment from Washington, Brussels, Downing Street or Whitehall, I would bet the mood music is "Nessun Dorma!" That returns us to an audio topic.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I don't know if Net Gulagu is reliable, but they state that Wagner's plan was to gain access to nuclear weapons. They also claim that some of the Russian military units in Ukraine have switched sides to Wagner and will go into Russia to support Wagner.

Here's a google translation of a post by Net Gulago.

>>>The source reports on preparations for the capture of a number of objects of the 12th Main Directorate of the Ministry of Defense with a nuclear arsenal. "Utkin was preparing this particular part of their special operation (military mutiny)."

Source: "Wagners are preparing Rostov for a long defense, the city will soon resemble one big fortification. Bakhmut's experience in action, they are the best practitioners in the urban environment. Aviation is already working at the entrances to the city. . . .

Another source: “Prigozhin and Utkin are now waiting for replenishment from the DPR/LPR, a number of units have decided to go over to their side and are returning to Russia to “put things in order”.

There is a significant risk that Vladimir Putin and the Defense Ministry will lose control over part of the nuclear arsenal, mines and mobile launchers in the next 2 days. The question is whether they will be able to protect the combat control and encryption centers from the rebellious Grushnikov and Wagner PMCs.<<< (emphasis added)


Utkin appears to be an exceptionally ruthless and unpleasant person.


I can't help but wonder if Wagner will still try to gain control of nukes. The pause of the drive to Moscow may be a feint.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I believe Rob Lee is probably correct that attempting to force Wagner to sign a contract putting Wagner under direct control of Shoigu was probably the catalyst.


>>>The deals are part of a new Russian law aimed at controlling private armies fighting on Moscow’s behalf in Ukraine.

The order requires all “volunteer units” to sign contracts by July 1, bringing them under the control of the country’s Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.<<<

 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't know if Net Gulagu is reliable, but they state that Wagner's plan was to gain access to nuclear weapons. They also claim that some of the Russian military units in Ukraine have switched sides to Wagner and will go into Russia to support Wagner.

Here's a google translation of a post by Net Gulago.

>>>The source reports on preparations for the capture of a number of objects of the 12th Main Directorate of the Ministry of Defense with a nuclear arsenal. "Utkin was preparing this particular part of their special operation (military mutiny)."

Source: "Wagners are preparing Rostov for a long defense, the city will soon resemble one big fortification. Bakhmut's experience in action, they are the best practitioners in the urban environment. Aviation is already working at the entrances to the city. . . .

Another source: “Prigozhin and Utkin are now waiting for replenishment from the DPR/LPR, a number of units have decided to go over to their side and are returning to Russia to “put things in order”.

There is a significant risk that Vladimir Putin and the Defense Ministry will lose control over part of the nuclear arsenal, mines and mobile launchers in the next 2 days. The question is whether they will be able to protect the combat control and encryption centers from the rebellious Grushnikov and Wagner PMCs.<<< (emphasis added)


Utkin appears to be an exceptionally ruthless and unpleasant person.


I can't help but wonder if Wagner will still try to gain control of nukes. The pause of the drive to Moscow may be a feint.
Apparently this deal was brokered by Lukashenko of Belarus. So he mist be still there. It is now a confused situation. The Wagner group are retreating. Why, and the terms of this deal are unknown. I suspect it was the blocking of the M4 motorway 200 KM outside Moscow that had something to do with it. That would have made them sitting ducks.

The real question now is if Prigozhin is a dead man walking. I was watching BBC when this news broke. It remains a very confused situation. The question is if how and when Ukraine can press their advantage. There do seem to be signs that both the Russian and Wagner fighters have had enough. So just may be there are negotiations in the works. However, the watch words are unexpected, incredible and confused. I don't think anyone can make sense of this right now.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
An interview with the Baltic state Estonia’s prime minister that had her "grandmother, great-grandmother and my mother were sent to Siberia, and my grandfather was sent to a prison camp".

A reminder of why we should not let Russia succeed with their brutal invasion of Ukraine.


>>>Estonia’s 46-year-old prime minister, Kaja Kallas, has been dubbed the new Margaret Thatcher for her tough stance on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. This week, Kallas spoke with The Post’s Lally Weymouth on the war and her thoughts on the upcoming NATO summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, where Ukraine’s potential membership will be discussed. Excerpts:

Weymouth: I am impressed by your passionate support for Ukraine. I wondered if you could explain to people in the West why you, the leader of a small Baltic country, find it so important to give so much military aid to Ukraine?

Kallas:
We see in the events in Ukraine our own history unfolding — history that our grandmothers and grandfathers actually suffered. Therefore, it is our duty to spare the people of Ukraine from those atrocities that our own people went through. My own mother was deported to Siberia when she was 6 months old.

Your grandmother went with her?
My grandmother, great-grandmother and my mother were sent to Siberia, and my grandfather was sent to a prison camp. This is not a unique story. Every family in Estonia has a story like this. One-fifth of our population was either killed or deported to Siberia during the occupation by the Russians.

Do you see a solution to the Ukraine war?
If someone talks about Russia and Ukraine agreeing on a peace settlement and giving away some territory, I explain that after World War II, your side of the Iron Curtain had peace, which meant that you built up your countries and the prosperity of your peoples. On our side of the Iron Curtain, we had mass deportations, killings, and our culture and language were suppressed. So even if there is some kind of an agreement, without accountability it doesn’t mean that the human suffering will stop.

So there must be a withdrawal of Russian troops?
If the Russians do not go back to Russia, I feel it is very dangerous. We have to do everything to discredit the policy tool of (Russian) aggression. If you attack another country and you get some kind of peace treaty and you walk away with more territory than you had before, then aggression pays off. So all the would-be aggressors in the world are carefully taking notes — okay, I might lose some people, but I will have a bigger empire. ...<<<
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
According to this report, Prigozhin planned to capture Shoigu and Gerasimov, but the FSB learned about it two days before.

>>>Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin planned to seize two of Russia top military officials when he launched a short-lived mutiny on Saturday, the Wall Street Journal reported on Wednesday, citing Western officials.

Prigozhin’s plot involved the capture of Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu and top army general Valery Gerasimov when the pair visited a region along the border of Ukraine, the WSJ wrote.

Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) learned of the plot two days before it was due to take place, forcing Prigozhin to change his plans at the last minute and launch a march towards Moscow instead, according to the report.<<<


To my mind the situation is still murky.
 

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