Ukraine – Russia … not more of the last thread

[Trell]

Thanks for spending US money- next time we have a need, someone damn well better help us.

That’s quite an ignorant post.

 

[highfigh]

Numerous countries already are


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Got examples of their help? I mean help the US, not Ukraine.

 

[highfigh]

That’s quite an ignorant post.

Sop was yours- the US has spent and donated more than anyone else and you have the balls to tell the US to spend more? Screw you!

It's bad enough that Congress is working with Monopoly money as it is without having to support one side in a war.

I think we can agree that Putin needs to go- let's try to be on the same side.

 

[mtrycrafts]

And, that chart by GDP, same article:
"By Share of GDP, East European Countries Are Giving the Most to Ukraine
Bilateral aid as a share of gross domestic product (GDP) from the EU institutions and the top 20 donor countries as of January 15, 2023"

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I think we can agree that Putin needs to go- let's try to be on the same side.

How will that come to fruition?

 

[Trell]

How will that come to fruition?

For sure not by letting the brutal invasion of Ukraine by Russia succeed, as some apparently don't mind.

 

[shadyJ]

After Russia's interference with USA elections, I am perfectly fine with high spending to see them get their asses kicked all over eastern Europe. How miserly should the USA be when it comes to defending free and allied countries from brutal invasions?

 

[Mr._Clark]

There are a lot of ways to look at the U.S. defense spending in Ukraine.

>>>US spending of 5.6% of its defense budget to destroy nearly half of Russia’s conventional military capability seems like an absolutely incredible investment.<<

https://cepa.org/article/its-costing-peanuts-for-the-us-to-defeat-russia/

This article is a little over 3 months old, but I doubt the current numbers are significantly different.

This may be unpleasant in some respects, but the unstated U.S. strategy for many years is to defeat any major threat overseas so we don't have to fight on our own soil. Hopefully this can be done in a manner that is consistent with the desires of the countries that are supported by the U.S. (I have no doubt this is true in Ukraine, other perhaps than a tiny fraction of the population there).

Putin has demonstrated that he does not give a rat's *ss about international laws concerning sovereignty, human rights, democracy, freedom of speech, etc. and he has no respect for basic human dignity. I have not seen any credible arguments that Putin would stop expanding into additional countries if he succeeds in taking Ukraine.

No one gets a blank check, but the support provided so far has proven to be quite effective. There's no way to predict precisely what the total cost to defeat Russia in Ukraine might (will) be, but I doubt that it would be enough to seriously impact (negatively) the U.S.

Here's another way to look at it.

Yes, those are big numbers. However, as a percentage of GDP is not extraordinary compared to prior defense spending:

https://www.usgovernmentspending.com/defense_spending_history

Personally, I'm willing to pay few bucks to neuter Putin.

 

[Swerd]

Putin has demonstrated that he does not give a rat's *ss about international laws concerning sovereignty, human rights, democracy, freedom of speech, etc. and he has no respect for basic human dignity. I have not seen any credible arguments that Putin would stop expanding into additional countries if he succeeds in taking Ukraine.

Exactly! Thanks for that info.

Look at any of the former Iron Curtain nations, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Czech & Slovak republics, Bulgaria, Romania (did I leave anyone out?). They eagerly joined NATO as soon as they could after the demise of the USSR. Ask them if they believe Putin will stop if he succeeds in taking Ukraine. Ask Sweden and Finland, who had previously always guarded their neutral status. Even Switzerland must be getting nervous.

Russia must be stopped. It will not stop on it's own. Putin and his supporters must be removed from power – forcibly if needed. Without that, I see no lasting peace agreements. I can't imagine how Russia might be governed after such an outcome. Military occupation, as with Germany after WW2? I hope not. I only know that without ousting Putin from power, Russia will remain a threat to all of Europe.

China is watching closely. Remember that Ukraine volunteered to give up its nuclear weapons left behind by the defunct Soviet Union. If Russia succeeds in taking a once nuclear-armed Ukraine, what would stop China from trying to grab Taiwan? And why would it stop there? China is also well aware that Russia, if it succeeds in taking Ukraine, becomes a threat to all its Asian neighbors as well as Europe.

NATO has no choice – it must take on Putin and Russia before things get worse.

I'm old enough to vividly remember the Vietnam War. One of the major beefs many Americans had with the South Vietnamese government was its reliance on the US to do its fighting. Why should we fight for a nation that wasn't willing to fight for its own survival? In contrast, Ukraine is quite different. They're doing a surprisingly good job at defending themselves. Why shouldn't we arm them with all they can use?

 

[GO-NAD!]

If one considers the cost of the pointless Iraq adventure (not even counting the lost/ruined American lives), assistance to Ukraine is the bargain of the century.
US Taxpayers Have Spent Over $2 Trillion for the Iraq War, Report Says (businessinsider.com)

If the Western Democracies shouldn't stand up for Ukraine, what should we stand up for?

 

[Mikado463]

Zero. Let us just accept that Russia will rebuild their old empire and then some, all the way to Spain, Portugal and London.

LOL, and pigs will be flying !

On a serious note I'm all in should 'Pu-Nuts' invade a NATO country. But stand firm on the accountability of the $$ given to Ukraine.

 

[Mikado463]

If one considers the cost of the pointless Iraq adventure (not even counting the lost/ruined American lives), assistance to Ukraine is the bargain of the century.
US Taxpayers Have Spent Over $2 Trillion for the Iraq War, Report Says (businessinsider.com)

Valid point and after all that $$ spent where are we today, what have we learned ?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Valid point and after all that $$ spent where are we today, what have we learned ?

That the invasion of Iraq was unjustified and a waste of lives and money?

 

[Mikado463]

I'm old enough to vividly remember the Vietnam War.

me too, and while I was fortunate to have entered the draft near the end older friends and loved ones weren't so lucky

One of the major beefs many Americans had with the South Vietnamese government was its reliance on the US to do its fighting. Why should we fight for a nation that wasn't willing to fight for its own survival? Ukraine is quite different. They're doing a surprisingly good job at defending themselves.

agreed

Why shouldn't we arm them with all they can use?

So I assume you mean everything short of nukes ? At what point do we compromise our own capabilities ? Will China then invade Taiwan forcing us into another WWII scenario (Europe / Asia) ?

 

[Mikado463]

That the invasion of Iraq was unjustified and a waste of lives and money?

ahhhh, but good for business, after all that is a modern day component !

 

[highfigh]

How will that come to fruition?

Suicide squad is the only way I can see this happening. People who don't care if they come out alive. Or, the old way- get people on the inside to do it. That would set a bad precedent, though- we can't very well go around assassinating the leaders of countries.

I have heard that he spends a lot of his time on one of his boats, though.

 

[GO-NAD!]

ahhhh, but good for business, after all that is a modern day component !

Well, being good for business is not a justification and I don't believe Western aid to Ukraine is due to pressure from weapons manufacturers.

 

[Swerd]

On a serious note I'm all in should 'Pu-Nuts' invade a NATO country.

Considering that all NATO members have already put that in writing, it's no surprise that Putin carefully toes that line without crossing it. He has threatened with nuclear weapons several times, but that seems like an empty bluff. He's trying to scare off isolationists and appeasers.

But stand firm on the accountability of the $$ given to Ukraine.

By saying that, you put yourself in league with blind isolationism of the past & present.

Where were those money wasting protests when W Bush & D!ck Cheney wanted to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? Similarly in 1991, when HW Bush wanted to intervene in Kuwait, where were those isolationists who vociferously opposed it because it was a budget-buster?

Contrast those times to when Clinton was president later in the 1990s. Those same isolationists opposed his efforts to stop Slobodan Milošević's aggression in several former provinces that had broken away from a defunct Yugoslavia.

It does seem like an isolationist foreign policy combined with feigned interest in fiscal responsibility are selectively applied only when a president is a Democrat. Waiting until Putin directly attacks us or another NATO member is essentially appeasement.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Why shouldn't we arm them with all they can use?

So I assume you mean everything short of nukes ?

I don't think they have any use for submarines, aircraft carriers or B-52's. "All they can use" would be whatever is needed to push out the invaders.

At what point do we compromise our own capabilities ? Will China then invade Taiwan forcing us into another WWII scenario (Europe / Asia) ?

I don't think assisting Ukraine will compromise our (NATO's) capabilities. If anything, it's a wake-up call to enhance our capabilities. Russia isn't going to attack a NATO country when they already have more on their plate than they can handle. Giving up on Ukraine would just encourage a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.

 

[Swerd]

So I assume you mean everything short of nukes?

Yes, everything short of nuclear weapons, as we have done for many decades.

At what point do we compromise our own capabilities?

We compromise them by ignoring Russia as a clear and present threat.

Will China then invade Taiwan forcing us into another WWII scenario (Europe/Asia)?

China will invade Taiwan only if we demonstrate weakness by lacking the political will to take on Russia over Ukraine.