Two 10"'s better than one 12" sub

[Tomorrow]

Congratulations, you've convinced me to go Velodyne



Having just gone through this process, AND knowing the agony of limited budgetary guidelines, the prudent course of action, rather than be sold by someone you don't know on the internet, is, of course.....

LISTEN TO THEM BEFORE YOU BUY!!

 

[warpdrive]

To be different, I prefer one good 12" over two 10" from the same model line.

#1 reason.... Frequency extension. Usually a 12" is rated to play lower than the corresponding 10". The tuned frequency of the average 10" has no usable output below about 25Hz (with some notable exceptions). For example, my previous Energy 10" was rated to 25Hz,-3dB.

I just replaced my Energy sub with a new 12" Mirage sub, nothing else has changed, I just put it in the same location which worked well for the Energy.

Wow. what a difference. With frequency sweeps, there is something there that wasn't there before. Now I get usable output at 21 Hz (the -3dB point is rated at 19Hz). This is very evident when playing movies like U571, Godzilla, StarWars Ep 2, etc. Whereas my previous sub would sound thunderous, the new one you feel deep inside your body. In the scenes where there is an earthquake, you feel rather than hear the bass (same with the aftershocks of the depth charges). The old one would make very deep loud bassy noises, but it just didn't have the same rumble that I get from my new sub.

So I'm glad I went for a new replacement sub rather than having two smaller subs. To me, the real reason to buy a new sub is to get more deepness in the bass....it was loud enough before, but the extra few Hertz of bass I get is something that made it all worthwhile. As a side bonus, I can play it louder than before, but that was not the goal with me.

Secondly, the tightness of the bass has less to do with cone size than overall design. If a 12" from the same model line plays sloppy, then a 10" is not going to be that much better. I think my 12" Mirage plays tighter than my 10" Energy ever did. Lastly, it's rare that "all other things are equal". A 10" driver may be designed to have a larger excursion or different magnet structure, so it may not really be that much "tighter". There are a whole lot of other factors that affect tightness. Comparing cone sizes alone is like comparing tire sizes. It still doesn't tell you how well the overall car handles.

So my vote is, sell your old one, and get one good 12 (or even 10") sub rather than to buy another cheap sub.

 

[cbraver]

Having just gone through this process, AND knowing the agony of limited budgetary guidelines, the prudent course of action, rather than be sold by someone you don't know on the internet, is, of course.....

LISTEN TO THEM BEFORE YOU BUY!!

I couldn't agree with that statement more. At the end of the day, YOUR EARS, should be the deciding factor. We can only guide so much, because a lot of audio is preference. We can only say "I think you'll be happiest with this..." ...but the decision lies in you. Trial periods and return policies usually make that decision a lot easier to make on your wallet!

-Chad

 

[Peter Marcks]

Good evening Chad,

Also, if you buy it in a store, I even think the DPS10 might turn out to be cheaper. I get a kick out of HSU with their "normally it's 499...but if you buy FACTORY DIRECT it's only 399." *snicker* Some deal. It's insulting. Just give me the damn price instead of "the price + 100" and then under it "the price." It's on thing as a reseller (and it works as reseller, list MSRP and then show what your selling it for)...but as a factory, it's just silly.

There is nothing silly or deceptive about this. Our STF and VTF subwoofers were available for purchase at dealers and via internet factory direct. We had a manufacturer suggested retail price for dealers, and then a flat factory direct price. Our pricing is generally quite low anyway.

Some of our dealers were also selling the STF-2 well below our factory direct price of $399. Dealers have some room for adjusting prices. In fact, when CompUSA had it's blowout, the STF-2's were being sold for $199!

Any time one does a comparison between two subwoofers, one needs to be extremely careful in setting up each subwoofer to the best of their ability. On that note, Dr. Hsu provides free setup and placement advice. Next time you do a comparison, I encourage you to make use of his vast knowledge on subwoofer setup and room characteristics. Once Dr. Hsu knows something about your equipment, about your room, and about your listening preferences, he can almost always do a terrific job in satisfying the customer.

Sincerely,

 

[warpdrive]

The only caveat is to "Listen before you buy" is....

With subs, it's VERY hard to judge the performance in the store. Because the majority of a sub's performance is dependent on acoustics.

I see Mr Marcks has posted, what he says is true, especially in Canada. The Hsu subs can be had for less than MSRP. There are some dealers in Ontario that were selling the sub for 10-20% off the normal Canadian MSRP.

 

[Peter Marcks]

This is very true warpdrive. That is why we offer a 30 day in-home trial. We try to keep shipping costs relatively low too (the STF-2 and VTF-2 have a flat $25 shipping rate, and the STF-1 has a flat $15 shipping rate) in order to limit the liability for the consumer.

Cheers

 

[Reggie Died]

Peter,

I'm assuming you're talking about the US. I've contacted your Canadian distributor at www.highfidelity.com, and asked them their shipping costs. Instead, they directed me to couple of local dealers in my area.

I've only consulted with one over the phone, and I asked about their in home trial period. They said that since the subwoofer had an amp, they would not return it, and therefore would not allow me to try it out at home.

This kind of pissed me off, because at that point in time, I was pretty sure that i was going to take the HSU route, and only wanted to see if the STF1 would go low enough for me (since i'm on a cheap bastard on a college student's budget). However, since my room is 14x17 with 8' ceilings, i was thinking the STF-1 would not be able to fill the room, and if that was the case, i would have returned it and upgraded to the STF2.

I called back the next day, hoping to talk to another sales rep, which i thankfully did. However, the second guy said they don't even bring in the STF1, and they could only get me the STF2. WTF.

Anyways, i'm still trying to get in touch with the second dealer that www.highfidelity.com gave me, but was wondering if there was another route i could take in getting a HSU in my setup.


Thanks,

Reggie Died

(and sorry for the long post........and derailing the thread)

 

[Tomorrow]

Mr. Marcks.....

Having just purchased an STF-1 to go with my JBL S120Pll, what is the Hsu recommendation on stacking subs (from this thread)? Thanks.

 

[cbraver]

Any time one does a comparison between two subwoofers, one needs to be extremely careful in setting up each subwoofer to the best of their ability. On that note, Dr. Hsu provides free setup and placement advice. Next time you do a comparison, I encourage you to make use of his vast knowledge on subwoofer setup and room characteristics. Once Dr. Hsu knows something about your equipment, about your room, and about your listening preferences, he can almost always do a terrific job in satisfying the customer.

Well, I have a fair amount of experiance and, even more importantly, know a few guys who know far more than I who I call when I'm in need of advice. I'm always open to advice, and if I had bought an HSU sub, there is no doubt I would take his offer up and call him up and get all the advice I could out of him. And if I ever am around one again, I will definetely try and get ahold of someone at your company for some extra help. HOWEVER! I do feel that I am experianced and knowledgable enough to get a basic subwoofer setup (and even more advanced) to sound it's best in a listening room. My friend who had the HSU and the Velodyne at the same time, had me spend a great while trying all different types of placements and even taking some measurements. I'm no expert, but I do feel that I had both subs at their near (or absolute) optimum location and settings. Your product was not poor, but in my opinion it didn't hold up to Velodyne's product in comparison. That's not to say in the future you guys can't make something that blows the DSP away, and that's also not to say that the next guy might say that he found the HSU to sound better than the Velodyne. But, my opinion, and the opinion of at least one other one here, the Velodyne is the way to go at that price point.

It also should be noted that I'm a long time Velodyne customer. I currently have an Velodyne HGS-18" (since discontinued) reinforcing my M&K S-150s. Velodyne's customer service has always been excellent, and my friends that own their subs all love them, from the guy who owns a DD-18 to my buddy who was on a budget and got the DSP. They both love their sub for their pricepoint.

Your customer service and presence on this board is appreciated. Your professionalism is top notch, especially when some shmoe on the 'net is "knocking" your product against another. ...and Dr. Hsu sounds like he is all about customer service too! But I hope you also appreciate the honesty and openess of my opinion.

-Chad

 

[Peter Marcks]

Dear Reggie,

I suggest posting on the Hsu forum, as there is a representative from Canada who occasionally reads the forum, in addition to several people who have purchased in Canada. I agree with your reasoning in some sense because you should have the right to feel comfortable about your purchase. It is my understanding that any of our business in Canada must go through the dealer network, so I suggest doing as much homework as possible. Also, feel free to email Dr. Hsu for advice and clarification.

Best of luck to you. I hope you find what you are looking for!

Sincerely,

 

[Peter Marcks]

Dear Chad,

I appreciate your feedback. The only thing I can tell you is that I have personally found Dr. Hsu's setup and placement advice to be unusually astute. He really has a very good understanding of physics, room nodes, etc. That is why he consistently manages to amaze people at home theater showcase events even using our smallest STF-1. The key to this is a fundamentally sound understanding of the room, the product, and of the perception of sound.

There is definitely no perfect subwoofer for anyone. Subwoofer design is all about tradeoff and compromise. Each consumer should choose the product that they feel compromises in the least number of ways that they consider to be important.

Sincerely,

 

[Dan]

Um, when you are talking about "speed," you are taking about "Hz". Making general statements like a 10 is faster than a 12, is just plain wrong. Lighter does NOT neccessarly more accurate, nor does the cone size.
-Chad

The problem with my statement is that "speed" is a poor term for what I was trying to say. A driver that is lighter in weight will have less inertia. Therefore it will begin moving more quickly in response to a signal than a heavier one. It will also stop its excursion more quickly at the end of that signal due to Newton's first law. That is what I meant by "faster". This has nothing to do with frequency response. It has a lot to do with accurate reproduction of low frequency notes involving large driver excursions.

Frequncy response depends upon many factors other than the driver size. These factors include the enclosure size, its q and the speakers q, port size and length as well as external factors such as the room and placement in it. I'm sure I left a few factors out. My subs have three 8" drivers each and have a very flat response +/- 1.5dB to below 20 Hz when the adjustable q is reduced to 0.5. Therefore driver size is NOT the only factor in allowing very low frequency response. In fact system q has much to do with it. I will admit that my subs will not play as loud as many other subs due to the low q and the absence of a port however.

 

[annunaki]

Actually...I think he was referring to the speed at which the cone is able to switch from one note to another, or you could say the speed at which it changes the Hz that is producing. The idea is that the lighter driver takes less effort to move thus all other things being equal it respond quicker than a larger more resistive driver. Or so the thought process goes…but I’m not saying it true…

Wrong. Mms or moving mass of the driver, does not dictate driver speed and frequecy changes. Inductance does. Inductance is the key factor when transient respose comes into question. The driver with a lower inductance will be "faster" (more transient) than the one with a higher inductance. That being said, a 12" can be "faster" (more transient) than a 10" if the 12" has lower inductance.

Inductance is the electrical "weight" of the coil, or what limits how fast electricty flows through it dictating driver "speed".

http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/TechPapers/WooferSpeed.pdf

 

[warpdrive]

Now that we've cleared up the "speed" issue, my opinion is that it's better to have one good sub than two average subs.

Your sound is only as good as your weakest link. If your existing sub is boomy, or doesn't have good low end extension, then adding a second one is not going to help that much. I could have a room full of average 10" subs, and not sound as nice as one single well chosen 12" sub.

I think sometimes it's better to start from scratch. More is not necessarily better unless you are under the baseline to begin with. Here's a weird analogy.....If you are under the water fill line, add water. But if you have enough water, then maybe you should toss out the water, and replace the water with pure filtered water.

So for the original poster, if you're really convinced that Velodyne is the best for you, maybe instead of getting that DPS10, you should sell your existing sub and get a DPS12 instead, or even go toward the SPL series or one of their higher models. Unless you have a problem with running out of volume, then I recommend considering this route.

 

[annunaki]

Adding a second subwoofer would be an applicable choice if some of the following criterion are needed or met:

1) a subwoofer with a fairly linear output capability is the one that will be duplicated

2) one wishes to have more uniform bass response throughout the entire listening area (see #4 as these are similar)

3) one wishes to improve the overall output (spl) of the system

4) one wishes to cancel out nasty room modes by using two woofers in carefully calculated positions.

 

[cbraver]

Annunaki, thank you. It's comforting to know someone else is on the same page as I. There are a ton of misconceptions revolving around subwoofers.

warpdrive, All subs are "boomy." That's the nature of the frequencies in which they reproduce. Turn down the subwoofer volume if it's "boomy."

-Chad

 

[warpdrive]

Adding a second subwoofer would be an applicable choice if some of the following criterion are needed or met:

1) a subwoofer with a fairly linear output capability is the one that will be duplicated

2) one wishes to have more uniform bass response throughout the entire listening area (see #4 as these are similar)

3) one wishes to improve the overall output (spl) of the system

4) one wishes to cancel out nasty room modes by using two woofers in carefully calculated positions.

Agreed.

It depends on what one is after.

Cancelling room modes is something that can be hard with even two subs. Certainly you can make the problem even worse if not done right. If anything, most people can't deal with placing one sub right, let alone two. And if you stack them on top of each other, it's much like having just one sub anyway.