Treason

[Matt34]

This same thing happened in Vietnam. It takes a nation to win a war, not just an army - keep that in mind.

Just thought I'd quote that.

 

[rnatalli]

I am good with wine too Dark hearty reds I like the best.

Chianti for me

 

[rnatalli]

Just thought I'd quote that.

With that quote in mind, I remember another related one. I don't recall who said it but it goes like this, to win a war you have to break the will of the opposing side to fight. Our enemy has nothing to lose so their will is intact; more than half the people of this country have already given up and Pelosi is trying to capitalize on it. Simple as that. Is it right? Not really, but that's life in the real world. That's politics. Bush may have sent the troops there, but at the time, a large majority of Americans supported the decision. He capitalized at the time.

Remember all those scares of bird flu and the such a few years back? It was all over the daily news. It all disappeared once Rumsfeld sold his stock in the vaccine company

 

[Matt34]

If you were not to watch the news you could never tell this country is at war. The only ones that are scraficing anything are the service men and women and their families. It's not like the days of WWI and WWII when the entire country came together to support the war operation, gave up their jobs to build the tanks and planes etc. No, the everyday joe is more worried about when the next American Idol is on and who is getting booted from Survior. I know it's a sweeping generalization as many do help in anyway the can but as an overall view of what I see everyday I mean every word.

The politics...well they are doing what they do best. Grasping hold of an opportunity to promote their own agenda and carrers at the cost of true American's unselfishly doing what they can for a country they love.

 

[stratman]

This never would have happened with the Gipper, he didn't care for political correctness, the press, or bleeding hearts, when it was time to take out Lybia, no problem, the Spaniards were cowardly to let us fly over their space ? Fine, Thatcher did, the result, Lybia changed her ways, Qaddafi lost family members, innocents in Lybia were killed, but that's war. The Gipper didn't suffer fools easily. Today everyone in Washington is so afraid of the press and public "opinion" (which is spun by the press anyway) that the hard choices are never carried for expediency's sake.

 

[aberkowitz]

If you were not to watch the news you could never tell this country is at war. The only ones that are scraficing anything are the service men and women and their families. It's not like the days of WWI and WWII when the entire country came together to support the war operation, gave up their jobs to build the tanks and planes etc.

Thing is, the country should have learned this back in Korea. I recently read David Halberstam's "The Coldest Winter", which put the Korean war in a very interesting perspective (I have to admit that even though I'm a history buff, I was very uneducated on the "police action"). In Korea the politicians and the Joint Chiefs (who are just glorified pols in their own right) believed that the country would easily come together the same way they did in WWII- it never crossed their mind that most Americans couldn't give a damn what happens 10,000 miles away in a foreign country. It took a couple years and many dead bodies until they realized that they had to fight a different type of war, even though the war was unpopular at home. In the end- the only winner of this action was the South Koreans of today... no way that country prospers in such a short period if they didn't need to completely rebuild it.

Our "non-caring" comes with the safety of being bordered by two oceans and two allies. Except for a handful of isolated incidents (Bay of Pigs, Pearl Harbor, 9/11), US citizens have had little reason to band together over the last 100 years b/c their country was threatened. Our history of not constantly being at war or afraid our neighbor was going to invade at any time makes us unique from every other country in the world save possibly Australia. This isn't something that will change in the short-term... come back 200 or 300 years from now and we'd still be the same way. Not saying it's bad, it's just important to understand why our citizens react the way they do. Maybe some of the pols should read a book every now and then!

 

[jonnythan]

TREASON - This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.

Hmm ok I guess your are right. She did not make a statement that constitutes a breech of allegiance at the very least.

First of all, that's not the definition of treason.

"trea·son /ˈtrizən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tree-zuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the offense of acting to overthrow one's government or to harm or kill its sovereign."

"In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation. "

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."


If you really think calling the Iraq war a failure and calling for a policy change "treason," you are absolutely mad and not remotely in touch with reality.

Disagreeing with the current administration and having a contrary opinion about how things are going is NOT treason. That's being a good citizen and good public servant.

 

[highfihoney]

It isn't a question of who took our soldiers to war, my beef is that she can be so audacious as to declare the the war is a "failure" while we still have soldiers over there dodging bullets and IED's. What do you think that does to troop morale?

EXACTLY......

 

[highfihoney]

This never would have happened with the Gipper, he didn't care for political correctness, the press, or bleeding hearts, when it was time to take out Lybia, no problem

The gipper ,i love it

That mess with Lybia was one of the all time great display's of muscle that our country/president has ever made,period,it made my chest puff up when i found out about it on the news.

Theres nothing like saying "were comming to YOUR HOME to get your a$$ "to send the proper message,and that message was instantly understood.

 

[jonnythan]

Let me be clear about something:


I can't stand Pelosi. I think that most of the crap she says is dumb. I think she and her cohorts have been astoundingly ineffective and worthless so far in their Congressional terms.

I do not vote for or support the Democratic party. I vehemently disagree with many or most of their policies. I say the same about the Republican party.


So I'm as impartial as it gets. I don't have a conservative or liberal agenda here. From a purely neutral standpoint, the only justification I can see for accusing Nancy Pelosi of treason is 100% pure political bias. Nothing more.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Let me be clear about something:


I can't stand Pelosi. I think that most of the crap she says is dumb. I think she and her cohorts have been astoundingly ineffective and worthless so far in their Congressional terms.

I do not vote for or support the Democratic party. I vehemently disagree with many or most of their policies. I say the same about the Republican party.


So I'm as impartial as it gets. I don't have a conservative or liberal agenda here. From a purely neutral standpoint, the only justification I can see for accusing Nancy Pelosi of treason is 100% pure political bias. Nothing more.

Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha, and the other jerks I can not think of at the moment should ALL BE TRIED FOR TREASON against this country John Murtha LIED about our troops, and they all demoralized OUR AWESOME TROOPS in a time of WAR and smypathized with and took the ENEMIES position. They are traitors to this country and free speech has nothing to do with it. THEY ARE TRAITORS PERIOD. Your are also forgetting about Pelosi's little trip she took. If Bush had a pair he would have never let her back into the country. But he did because he is also a wimp and does not have the courage to do what needs to be done. This had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with what they said and did in a time of war. The problem is we have become a country of wimps and George W Bush is a wimp too.

The only reason for not proceeding with treason charges for all them is because we have become a country of wimps, and W and most of congress is included. I have nothing political in my reasoning. I am for the survival of our GREAT country and way of life.

 

[chadnliz]

Pelosi is one of the signs of the end of the world....you didnt see that on 60 minutes?

 

[jonnythan]

Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha, and the other jerks I can not think of at the moment should ALL BE TRIED FOR TREASON against this country

Putting these people on trial for expressing opinions regarding current US policy would be a travesty. It would be a direct assault on our most treasured freedoms.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Putting these people on trial for expressing opinions regarding current US policy would be a travesty. It would be a direct assault on our most treasured freedoms.

In earlier times when this was not a country of wimps they would have all been tried and convicted. Freedom is one thing, but demoralizing our troops and country in a time of war is something completely different. Why is this so hard for some people to grasp. I am sure your are also one of the people who think Bush should be impeached though for lying.

 

[jonnythan]

In earlier times when this was not a country of wimps they would have all been tried and convicted.

That is a complete fabrication. There is absolutely zero truth to that statement.

I find it incredibly distressing that people in my own country have such an incredible disrespect for the Constitution. It's pathetic, it's sad, and it's very disturbing that there are people in my own country that resent and disrespect freedom.

I am sure your are also one of the people who think Bush should be impeached though for lying.

Fiction is fun, isn't it? You seem to get significant enjoyment out of making things up.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

That is a complete fabrication. There is absolutely zero truth to that statement.

I find it incredibly distressing that people in my own country have such an incredible disrespect for the Constitution. It's pathetic, it's sad, and it's very disturbing that there are people in my own country that resent and disrespect freedom.



Fiction is fun, isn't it? You seem to get significant enjoyment out of making things up.

There were people who did less than John Murtha and were convicted of treason. Did Jane Fonda commit treason in your opinion? or was that OK too. As far as the last part that was only a guess. Most people who defend those idiots I mentioned also believe Bush and Cheney should be impeached for lying but John Murtha type stuff is OK.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

How that does not apply to Pelosi and Murtha I don't understand.

 

[jonnythan]

There were people who did less than John Murtha and were convicted of treason.

Who?

Did Jane Fonda commit treason in your opinion? or was that OK too.

I have no opinion on Jane Fonda's actions. I was born after they occurred and have never cared enough about her to get all the facts.

 

[jonnythan]

“There haven't been gains, Wolf,” the speaker replied. “The gains have not produced the desired effect, which is the reconciliation of Iraq. This is a failure. This is a failure. The troops have succeeded, God bless them. We owe them the greatest debt of gratitude for their sacrifice, their patriotism, and for their courage and to their families as well.

“But they deserve better than the policy of a war without end, a war that could be 20 years or longer. And Secretary Gates just testified in the last 24 hours to Congress that this next year in Iraq and Afghanistan are going to cost $170 billion.

“Afghanistan is not settled because the president took his eye off the ball and took the full attention that should have been in Afghanistan, and shifted some of that to Iraq, a war without end, without a plan, without a reason to go in, without a plan to win, without a strategy to leave. This is a disaster … we cannot perpetuate.”

I am absolutely flabbergasted that a US citizen believes that the US should be such an intolerant police state as to actually consider these statements treason. The First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States means nothing to you.

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Who?



I have no opinion on Jane Fonda's actions. I was born after they occurred and have never cared enough about her to get all the facts.

It is not only those statements but what she and the others have said before. Calling what our troops our doing is a a failure, they are murders, rapist, killing women and children, etc, etc. Those are all disgusting and treasonists things to say about our troops and the effort in general. It has nothing to do with ones opinion on the war itself. Why do you not see the difference if you love our country and freedoms they way you say?

As far as Fonda is concerned, just ask any Vietnam vet how he feels about it.

 

[jonnythan]

hmm, OK I rest my case then

So you admit that you can't come up with one person who fits your description of having been convicted of treason for "less than" expressing disagreement with the continuation of an ongoing military conflict?