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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Not merely talking about nukes when discussing WMD. Saddam used WMD on his own people during the 80's - do you find it slightly odd that all of a sudden nothing was to be found when we went in?
What do I care what he was doing to his people? There are people suffering everywhere in the world. Why don't we save them? Simple, they don't have oil. It's sad that we're worried about people thousands of miles away when there are people in our own country starving and dying. Like I said, it's all about money.

I believe international law allows for mass retaliation against anyone using any WMD. Not that international law means anything. They wipe out a city or two, we wipe out a continent. You'd have to be mad to take that deal; although there may very well be someone that stupid.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Let's also not forget that democracy allows for disagreement. Does Pelosi's comments demoralize the troops, probably, is she wrong, maybe, is she doing it for political capital, most definitely yes but who isn't in a democracy?
I think there's a marked difference between disagreeing with a POV and twisting (and ignoring) facts to suit your own ends and, in the process, harming your own troops psychological well-being simply for ones personal political gain, don't you?

If this is what the new wave of democrats are going to be like, I don't think we're gonna be any better off. Look how well Kerry did and, in all honesty, he could have been a contanda but it's his ethics that did him in.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I think there's a marked difference between disagreeing with a POV and twisting (and ignoring) facts to suit your own ends and, in the process, harming your own troops psychological well-being simply for ones personal political gain, don't you?
Isn't that what being a politician is all about :D

Seriously, this is nothing new and has been going on since the Greeks and Romans. Any Republic or Democracy will have these issues. It goes with the territory. The alternative is to hand control over to the military or dictator who will do the same thing after a few years anyways.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Well, yes and no.

Isn't that what being a politician is all about :D

Seriously, this is nothing new and has been going on since the Greeks and Romans. Any Republic or Democracy will have these issues. It goes with the territory. The alternative is to hand control over to the military or dictator who will do the same thing after a few years anyways.
It was bad enough when a bimbo like Jane Fonda played this game in the 60's but for a politician who is supposed to have the best interests of the country and it's service personnel in mind, I expect a bit more honesty and integrity.

Remember, a lot of them will be coming home and may not like the implied slight of their sacrifice, not to mention their parents.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
It was bad enough when a bimbo like Jane Fonda played this game in the 60's but for a politician who is supposed to have the best interests of the country and it's service personnel in mind, I expect a bit more honesty and integrity.

Remember, a lot of them will be coming home and may not like the implied slight of their sacrifice, not to mention their parents.
I think everyone here will welcome our service personnel back with open arms, warm hearts, and true thanks.

What I am saddened by is that we ask these people to wear the uniform, place their trust in a government that is going to use them in a righteous manner and then have that trust betrayed.

Again; a lot of people had no problem with Afghanistan. Iraq is another matter. I would rather this thread be about the Bush administration and the obviousness of it all that Iraq was not threat terrorist wise. Please remember that we have all been mis-led. Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
WMD argument is old. What country would be stupid enough to use the one or two nukes they have knowing full well that international law allows for mass retaliation.
Islamo fascists could care less how we would retaliate and they will not stop until they have killed or converted the entire world. Islamo fascism is NOT a country it is a set of beliefs. Why do you libs fail to understand that concept and underestimate the danger to the free world from islamo fascism? You are talking about a set of beliefs that would use women, children and even people with downs syndrome to become a human bomb and kill innocent people. How do you not understand that a belief system such as that must be stopped no matter what the costs?
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Isn't that what being a politician is all about :D

Seriously, this is nothing new and has been going on since the Greeks and Romans. Any Republic or Democracy will have these issues. It goes with the territory. The alternative is to hand control over to the military or dictator who will do the same thing after a few years anyways.
I for one can't rally behind any kind of idea that just because something has been flawed in the past, then we have to accept it for what it is - that kind of thinking will get us nowhere. I know you were just being facetious rnatalli, and I can appreciate that. But in all honesty - by definition, a politician is here to serve their country, not the other way around. The system works only as good as the people who employ it.

Please... don't get me started on the monkeys in Washington these days... please. ;) I agree that perhaps the perfect Republic may not be able to exist, but our forefathers sure tried like hell to make it so. They specifically utilized the lessons learned from the other failed republics, such as the Romans to create what we have today.

Either way, back on point - the OP had offered links to Pelosi's savage remarks concerning our troop efforts in Iraq - whether we believe in the war or not, can we leave the political bickering here at home amongst ourselves and let the troops know that they're doing a great job? If you ask me, that's something that we cannot say enough to them...
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Anyone saying that a sitting Congresswoman should be found guilty of TREASON for expressing an opinion should be ashamed of themselves.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Again; a lot of people had no problem with Afghanistan. Iraq is another matter. I would rather this thread be about the Bush administration and the obviousness of it all that Iraq was not threat terrorist wise. Please remember that we have all been mis-led. Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.
How can you say that when the very animals we are fighting in Iraq are the very same animals that have taken thousands of innocent lives all in the name of Islam. We are fighting al qaeda in Iraq and not the Iraqi people. Al qaeda is the group who attacked us and still wants to attack us. Why is that so hard for people to understand?
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I don't think I'd consider myself I liberal. If it were up to me, I'd be like the Romans and not let anything stop me. Terrorists are hiding in the mountains? Fine, drill a ton of MOAB's into the mountain and flatten it.

However, I also realize that no matter what you do or how long you fight, there will always be extremists out there. Thousands of years ago they couldn't be defeated and you could literally crucify people. How do you expect in this day and age to do any worst?
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Anyone saying that a sitting Congresswoman should be found guilty of TREASON for expressing an opinion should be ashamed of themselves.
Anybody that thinks that she is not guilty of treason and aid and comfort to the enemy should be ashamed of themselves.
 
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jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Uh, I don't think I'd consider myself I liberal. If it were up to me, I'd be like the Romans and not let anything stop me. Terrorists are hiding in the mountains? Fine, drill a ton of MOAB's into the mountain and flatten it.
Well I certainly don't disagree with that statement. Maybe there is hope for you yet:D
 
Thaedium

Thaedium

Audioholic
As a soldier myself, I could care less what some politician thinks of Iraq or Afghanistan and the War on Terrorism.

If they want to sensationalize their political viewpoints by declaring Iraq as a stunning failure, thats fine. It does not, contrary to popular belief undermine my morale, or any of the guys I work with.

First and foremost, US and Canada and our allies all have democracies, and every citizen has a right to free speech. If some of them want to bash the war, let'em. It invites educated discourse and debate, which is the foundation of our democracies. I don't like Pelosi myself, I think she is conniving and playing on statistics and casualties and visceral language to ascribe her personal views on the war. That said, to try her for Treason because she thinks a war is a complete failure is counter-productive in a democracy. You will note that in the second article listed by the OP that Pelosi is quick to retract her statements with regards to the troops, saying;

The troops have succeeded, God bless them.
This is her pathetic way of trying to cater to everyone. The fact is, if a war is a failure then it is the failure on the part of those doing the fighting, so you can't have it both ways. Troops can't succeede and yet fail to win the war at the same time. That is the error of Pelosi's logic, and its quite profound. Further, if troops are seeing successes overseas in operations, and there are ongoing operations then simply put, the war is not over. If the war is not over, then any blanket statements to the affect of;

The gains have not produced the desired effect, which is the reconciliation of Iraq. This is a failure. This is a failure. The troops have succeeded, God bless them. We owe them the greatest debt of gratitude for their sacrifice, their patriotism, and for their courage and to their families as well
are quite pointless. The very fact that she says there have been gains, and that the troops are succeeding undermines her position of total failure. The fact is, Pelosi is tossing about unsubstantiated claims to play on peoples fears and to sway voters. Will it work? To an extent, but I'd like to think the average person is smart enough to see through this kind of sloppy rhetoric.

Heres a thought. If you are against the war, simply state that fact. I don't mind if Pelosi, or people with similiar views have problems with it. I don't even mind if they get to power, and pull out troops. What I mind is cowardice, and twisting statistics, quibbling about how long it will take to resolve, and making massive blanket statements to the affect of; it is all a failure, is exactly that. Cowardice. Have the gumption to get up and say something like, "While the War in Iraq isn't over, I don't agree with it. I want our troops to come back home, and I don't see it happening without 20 years or more of violence in Iraq." <--- That kind of statement to me is atleast respectable, it wouldn't attempt to hide Pelosi's feeling on the war behind cleverly crafted rhetoric which implies it to be a doomed operation and the only sensible solution is to walk away.


Its interesting to see the kind of response this person illicits from citizens, but from the point of view of a combat soldier, I think she is junk. She does not have the intestinal fortitude to stay the course. Her words don't undermine my morale, they amuse me.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Let's also not forget the people. Politicians who stand for principles and ideals do not last long in Washington. We the people are the true fools as we only want to hear what we want to hear. And of course, let's not forget our own self-interests. Our country's fathers would be spinning in their graves if they get a glimpse of what we've become.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
:rolleyes:

Only if you ignore reality.
TREASON - This word imports a betraying, treachery, or breach of allegiance.

Hmm ok I guess your are right. She did not make a statement that constitutes a breech of allegiance at the very least. :rolleyes:
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
Let's also not forget the people. Politicians who stand for principles and ideals do not last long in Washington. We the people are the true fools as we only want to hear what we want to hear. And of course, let's not forget our own self-interests. Our country's fathers would be spinning in their graves if they get a glimpse of what we've become.
Well I don't disagree with that either. Hey we could get along. What kind of beer do you drink? :)
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Ultimately, the only way to win against extremists is annihilation which means a lot of innocent people have to die. In the old days, it wasn't easy to annihilate (although Rome did a number on Carthage). These days, it's possible to absolute destroy entire areas and everything in them. While we're annihilating, the question them becomes, are we killing more innocent people than the extremists were.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Well I don't disagree with that either. Hey we could get along. What kind of beer do you drink? :)
I think we'll disagree here. I'm a wine drinker generally :eek: I'll drink any beer put in front of me as I don't know the difference. Although, I've tasted some awful beer over the years.
 
jeffsg4mac

jeffsg4mac

Republican Poster Boy
I think we'll disagree here. I'm a wine drinker generally :eek: I'll drink any beer put in front of me as I don't know the difference :D Although, I've tasted some awful beer over the years.
I am good with wine too:) Dark hearty reds I like the best.
 

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