Toshiba’s New BD Attack Vector: Modify DVD for HD Content

[JackT]

This is a great thing. I really hope it works out. I think it could elliminate the HD confusion. You buy a movie...if you have an HD player you get HD content...if you don't have an HD player you get SD content. Seems pretty simple to me. Blu-ray has been a huge dissappointment. When the best Blu-ray player on the market is a video game console it really seems ridiculous that it somehow won out.

1)BD players play DVD also. Two kinds of disc, one kind of player. You are proposing a combo disc that will play in two different kinds of players. It's not obviously better as far as I can see.

2)As far as the "best" BD player being a game console: the "best" HD-DVD player could not play games at all. What is better about that? What is bad about the PS3? Why are you hugely dissappointed? What has not happened that you expected to happen?

 

[rgriffin25]

So whats next?

So if this new improvement doesn't succeed what will toshiba do next?

They could redo the Floppy disc, or perhaps they could figure out a way to make vhs viable again. I am sure there are a few laser disc owners out there that would be thrilled to find out their old player is now HD compatible.

Does anyone know if Toshiba and Hillary Clinton work together? Someone needs to step out and let these people know they lost and no one cares anymore...

 

[ivseenbetter]

1)BD players play DVD also. Two kinds of disc, one kind of player. You are proposing a combo disc that will play in two different kinds of players. It's not obviously better as far as I can see.

2)As far as the "best" BD player being a game console: the "best" HD-DVD player could not play games at all. What is better about that? What is bad about the PS3? Why are you hugely dissappointed? What has not happened that you expected to happen?

I know that BD plays DVD as well. Yet there is still confusion at the store when people are trying to decide what movie to purchase. People buy an SD movie and play it in their BD player and think it is HD (i have seen this happen). There are also folks that have gotten a BD only to find out it doesn't play in their SD player since they didn't understand they needed a new player. Plenty of confusion about what is going on. With this new solution people will just buy a movie. They wont care if it is HD or not because it won't matter. If they have an HD player at home they will get HD. If they don't, then they still get SD. There won't be two of the same movie to buy...plus, those individuals who don't want to bear the cost of upgrading their players to HD yet will be able to continue purchasing and watching movies for their SD player and their library will suddenly turn entirely HD when they do decide to upgrade their hardware (at least those pieces they bought with this new tech).

What is so bad about the PS3? Well, let see, how long has it been for the market to come up with a decent remote to use with the PS3? They are just now getting there. I personally don't care about the games it can play (I know a lot of folks do, so it is an outstanding solution for them). I want to watch movies in my HT room and it needs to integrate into my HT room. The PS3 just can't do that easily. Meanwhile, nobody seems to build a standalone player that is as good as the video game console that was released back in Nov 06. Almost 2 yrs later and nobody can build a decent standalone for a decent price? That just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[AVTguy]

I am an HD-DVD owner. I bought it for $75 in January after I had been to CES, and saw the state of HD-DVD. For me, there were enough titles out (Transformers, Matrix, The Bourne Films, etc.) and I knew prices would drop ($15 dollar discs on Amazon). Now I'm sitting happy as a clam with my 30+ titles, and I'm saving up for my 2nd or possibly 3rd gen. Denon Blu-ray unit to come out. But this new move by Toshiba is just weird.

I can understand why Toshiba doesn't want to give up it's own HD source technology (Money, Power, Ego, you know the things that drive almost everything). However, considering that most people really don't understand HD as it is, let alone the format war that came about, why are they trying to introduce yet another technology to keep the public in confusion.

While I can see flash based HD content as a very amazing and potential technology, it's still a few years down the road until it can really take to fruition. Flash just costs too much currently, and Blu-Ray's storage capacity hasn't even been tapped yet. Additionally, I don't think that majority of the public is even ready to change their paradigm from a disc based delivery system to a flash format. People are happy with DVD, and they're excited about Blu-Ray.

Toshiba needs to let DVD be and continue to improve it internally (Cell processor based scalers, etc.). They also need to jump onto the Blu-Ray bandwagon. Within two years I predict we'll have big 1440p screens available to the public, well at least at a relatively high end level, and Blu-Ray is capable of delivering those resolutions. My advice to Toshiba would be to get a cell processor into their first Blu-Ray unit, and be 1080p+ ready.

 

[JackT]

What is so bad about the PS3? Well, let see, how long has it been for the market to come up with a decent remote to use with the PS3? They are just now getting there. I personally don't care about the games it can play (I know a lot of folks do, so it is an outstanding solution for them). I want to watch movies in my HT room and it needs to integrate into my HT room. The PS3 just can't do that easily. Meanwhile, nobody seems to build a standalone player that is as good as the video game console that was released back in Nov 06. Almost 2 yrs later and nobody can build a decent standalone for a decent price? That just doesn't sit well with me.

So then how is the PS3 player "the best"? You just said it has no remote, and can't integrate into your HT. You also failed to mention that its PQ is not as good as standalone units. The PS3 is NOT the best BD player.

You have also mentioned a number of times that BD has been out "almost 2 years." BD discs have been available on this planet for 24 months come June. How low were you expecting the player prices to have fallen by now? By what historical standard are the current prices a disappointment? Seems to me prices have done pretty well in coming down pretty fast. Which is why I think the article's reference to "price stagnation" is just ludicrous, especially related to the notion that this is something that some future Toshiba technology could exploit.

 

[Soundman]

So then how is the PS3 player "the best"? You just said it has no remote, and can't integrate into your HT. You also failed to mention that its PQ is not as good as standalone units. The PS3 is NOT the best BD player.

You have also mentioned a number of times that BD has been out "almost 2 years." BD discs have been available on this planet for 24 months come June. How low were you expecting the player prices to have fallen by now? By what historical standard are the current prices a disappointment? Seems to me prices have done pretty well in coming down pretty fast. Which is why I think the article's reference to "price stagnation" is just ludicrous, especially related to the notion that this is something that some future Toshiba technology could exploit.

I believe the "stagnation" they are referencing is the fact that we haven't seen player prices fall much below $400.00. This price point just isn't acceptable to the average consumer. So, even though we have seen prices come down, they haven't come down far enough to get things moving. So, we are at a standstill. When "Average Joe" looks at what the overall cost is going to be to get true HD on his TV, he's going to walk right past the Blu-Ray section at the local BB, go over to the DVD section where he's going to find several movies on sale for $5-7 each. Then he's going to say, "Screw BD. This is good enough for me."
So, untill player and disc prices come down, the average consumer is going to stick with DVD's.

 

[Hi Ho]

^ I agree with Soundman. Blu-Ray prices are still too high. I bought my HD-A2 for $200 and it has the capability to do everything HD-DVD had to offer from all of the high resolution audio formats to ethernet. Here we are today and I still cannot buy a 2.0 spec Blu-Ray player that can decode all of the audio formats for under $700. I'm not an average joe and I still think prices are way too high. I realize that Toshiba heavily subsidized the price of HD-DVD players but if Sony wants to have any shot at succeeding they are going to have to do something similar. I was eagerly awaiting the Panasonic BD50 in hopes of it being priced below $500 but that didn't happen.

 

[ivseenbetter]

Thank you Soundman and Hi Ho for better illustrating my point. What you mention is exactly why I am unhappy with BD. Meanwhile I welcome anything that might come along and force manufacturers to either get off their butt and put out decent hardware or drop prices.

JackT - I have no real issue with PS3. I say it is the best option because that is what 9 out of 10 people are buying for their BD. At that price point, it probably is the best option. It's ridiculous that there isn't a standalone player that chanllenges it at the same price point.


What Toshiba is offering, in my opinion, is a way to just go to the store and buy a movie. No concerns about whether it is HD or not. If I have an HD player that is great, but if I don't, it still works just fine all on the same disc. I personally like the idea...but that is just me.

 

[Seth=L]

You also failed to mention that its PQ is not as good as standalone units. The PS3 is NOT the best BD player.

It's not? I would love to see where you found this information. The PS3 by itself is not exactly HT friendly, but it doesn't take much to make it so it is. A company such as MadCatz or Pelican has released an IR based remote system for the PS3 so you can have a learning remote take control of the PS3. The PS3 is also not very loud, as noted by a friend of mine it's quieter than his Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player.

 

[Seth=L]

Here we are today and I still cannot buy a 2.0 spec Blu-Ray player that can decode all of the audio formats for under $700.

I can think of at least one player that does this for far under $700.

 

[Hi Ho]

The PS3 is also not very loud, as noted by a friend of mine it's quieter than his Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player.

Unless his HD-A2 has a bad fan I can't imagine how it could possibly be louder than a PS3. The HD-A2 is whisper quiet. One must put his ear to the machine to hear the slightest whisper. The PS3 is much louder.

I can think of at least one player that does this for far under $700.

I'm not the least bit interested in getting a PS3. I will not buy a Sony product for a number of reasons. All I want is a reasonably priced standalone player that decodes all of the audio formats and doesn't perform like an old 286 PC.

 

[yettitheman]

Unless his HD-A2 has a bad fan I can't imagine how it could possibly be louder than a PS3. The HD-A2 is whisper quiet. One must put his ear to the machine to hear the slightest whisper. The PS3 is much louder.

HD-A2 I'm sure has a 60x60x25mm fan that is slowed by transistor logic; the case size is comparable to DVR's, and with all the DVR's I've replaced fans on, they are 60x60x25. They are by nature very loud and ineffective at removing heat. And my HD-A2 has always made this noise; it's the design of the fan. My 40 GB PS3 is also a new HW revision I belive; it's different than the one Seth has (connectors on the back in the middle).
Regardless, the PS3 fan is a custom designed and produced Furukawa Electric fan measuring in at 160mm. Because it is bigger, it moves more heat at same speed as the 60mm would.. and it can be ran slower which will reduce the noise further. But, it can get VERY loud if need be. However, that is uncommon. This video will put it in perspective:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=itUfZ1do7RA

For comparison:
HD-A2 fan:

(bearing center is the size of a quarter)


PS3 fan:

(bearing size looks like a half dollar)

I'm not the least bit interested in getting a PS3. I will not buy a Sony product for a number of reasons. All I want is a reasonably priced standalone player that decodes all of the audio formats and doesn't perform like an old 286 PC.

Well, the problem is that there is no such thing as "reasonably priced" that plays everything. The PS3 comes surprisingly close (if you got the 80 or 60 GB version). Even then, 400 is still a bit much for average consumers.

 

[Hi Ho]

My A2 doesn't make any noise at all.

Well, the problem is that there is no such thing as "reasonably priced" that plays everything.

The reason I'm frustrated is that almost a year ago I bought my HD-A2 at what I considered a reasonable price and it did everything. The cheapest Blu-Ray player that compares to the A2 (PS3) is $400. That's double what I paid a year ago.

 

[yettitheman]

My A2 doesn't make any noise at all.

Wierd. Firmware version?

The reason I'm frustrated is that almost a year ago I bought my HD-A2 at what I considered a reasonable price and it did everything. The cheapest Blu-Ray player that compares to the A2 (PS3) is $400. That's double what I paid a year ago.

I got mine for $98... and it did everything as well HD-DVD and DVD wise. None of this 1.1, 1.2, 2.0, 2.2, 4.78, 3.141835096, 450234.32 spec crap... lol. Right rolling out the door, they had the system right. Marketing... that killed them I think.

 

[BMXTRIX]

My PS3, I bought on Day 1 plays everything I've thrown at it without issue at all. Version 1.0 to 2.0 it's handled without fail. Integration with my control system? Not a problem at all.

My A2? No real issues there either - it works fine and the price on it was excellent.

But, my A2 will never play Iron Man or any other new movies in HD, so it's going to be removed from my system once the exclusive HD titles are released on the BD format.

Yet, this discussion shouldn't be about HD DVD vs. Blu-ray, it's about a new, more expensive replacement for DVD, pushed by Toshiba, which will cost studios additional money to manufacture and produce, which a total of 0.000% of the population currently can get any benefit from whatsoever.

Remember, the LSi technology does not talk about improving the MPEG2 primary two layers of the DVD, but simply adds 9GB of storage. Regardless of CODEC used on those extra 9GB of space, it will require a NEW DVD player (of unknown cost) to utilize these discs at all.

What incentive is there for studios to increase their development and production costs when consumers won't be happy about a rise (required) in DVD costs?

There were MANY HD DVD owners that were irritated by the dual format HD DVD/DVD hybrid discs that cost $5 more than the single BD discs. Consumers clearly are not interested in paying more for a feature that they do not, and will not use or even have access to.

Plus, if studios do NOT raise prices, then they are taking a CUT in profits in the DVD market that is already in decline!

This is well beyond stupidity on the part of Toshiba to expect any single studio to take part in this new misadventure that they have concocted to protect their DVD revenue stream.

TOP SHELF upconversion via SRT could be excellent, but that is most definitely completely different than LSi. If done well, it could be marketed into many of the best DVD and Blu-ray players out there, and would be something I would be very interested in.

But, LSi is vaporware. It won't ever be embraced by the public, and won't be touched by studios. It is similar to the love seen for WMV-HD discs which 'exist' but have zero actual support.

Studios saw 12% of Rambo sales go to Blu-ray - a figure that likely would have been just 2 or 3% last year at this time. In 4-5 years they likely will see as much as 50% or more of their revenue be from Blu-ray discs with overall gains in revenue, and they aren't likely to embrace a new format to confuse consumers even further and to hinder, in any way, the adoption of BD by the masses.

With PC drives likely to break the $100 mark this year for BD, it wouldn't be suprising to see sub $200 1.1 players and sub $300 2.0 players before this year is out, and perhaps knocking 50% off those prices by the end of next year.

No, Blu-ray isn't Toshiba's subsidized players which cost them $1,000 per unit to get them into people's homes. This is an industry built on making a real profit, so people aren't likely to see $100 on sale players this year. That's not how products remain on the market as clearly demonstrated by Toshiba with HD DVD. Toshiba's complete lack of understanding is following through on this, and there is little to indicate that they have a clue yet that they are being left behind. The studios I expect will remind them that consumer buying drives the market through profitability, not through innovations that cost consumers and studios money they can't recoup.

 

[ivseenbetter]

Good post BMXTRIX. I can clearly see where you are coming from. You make some good points that I won't argue. This new tech could go south but it doesn't cost me anything to let Toshiba try. If they can do it without it costing me anything than I am game. If prices for DVD players and hardware go up...then people won't buy it and it will die too. I'm interested in seeing where it goes.

 

[Seth=L]

Very good point about the compression format used, the MPEG-2 Blu-rays typically look like crap compared to MPEG-4/AVC encoded ones.

I am sticking with my original prognosis that this will fail. There's simply too much involved, and thinking about it makes my head hurt.

 

[mr-ben]

If I remember correctly, Toshiba has shown some demos where they use the Cell processor to upconvert a standard DVD, and supposedly the picture quality rivals Blu-ray. I haven't seen it myself, but if Toshiba can make my existing DVDs look even better than they do today, more power to them.

 

[BMXTRIX]

If I remember correctly, Toshiba has shown some demos where they use the Cell processor to upconvert a standard DVD, and supposedly the picture quality rivals Blu-ray. I haven't seen it myself, but if Toshiba can make my existing DVDs look even better than they do today, more power to them.

Sorry on this, but you do not remember correctly.

Toshiba has shown pre-rendered comparisons of SRT technology in comparison to standard DVD. These have not been real time demonstrations of SRT using an actual DVD, but have been renderings, similar to how video game releases are often put together.

The level of processing required for 9 field interpolation is about 100% more than what is currently being delivered by the Realta chips and is far more complex, so there are still some issues about whether or not Toshiba can even pull this off at all. If they can, there have been no claims whatsoever for there to be quality that rivals Blu-ray that have been made by Toshiba.

There are certain people who have pushed this new form of untested upconversion as a new 'good enough' standard. In fact, with the way MPEG2 is encoded to fit onto a 9GB disc, there is no possible way for the loss of video quality to be recreated. Most people don't get it, but MPEG doesn't encode a bunch of different frames, they use one frame, the describe difference from frame to frame to frame. So, if the data isn't there to recover in the first place, it won't get it back. Yet, with excellent algorythms, it can do a very good job of making what is there look as nice as possible. Not HD, but really good.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather wait for some actual reviews of a real product before I would stop buying Blu-ray Discs in true HD which I know is phenomenally stunning.

I also question what market Toshiba hopes to reach with this product. I mean, since it is DVD at the heart of SRT (we aren't talking LSi), it seems like a new upconverting DVD player. But, if it cost more than most current DVD players, then it may reach into the pricing of cheaper Blu-ray players. So, is it meant to be bought when someones DVD player breaks and they have no interest in partnering their new HDTV with an actual HD source for about the same money?

Or is it for those with extensive DVD collections who just want the best for that DVD collection? Isn't it likely those people already own a BD player? Maybe even a HD DVD player?

Once again - if SRT delivers, then I only hope that it is marketed into other products as we see with Silicon Graphics processors. But, that's a huge if, and the fact that Toshiba hasn't delivered any sample prototype products for any testing at all, is not something that helps me to build confidence in the product.

Remember what happenned last time Toshiba made a bunch of promises right? I would rather see them deliver first before I change my habits in HD viewing.

 

[gwilks98]

time and time again, when companies fight over standards, the customers are the ones that pay.

Token ring? IPX networks? Betamax? Laserdisc? HDLC?

A (proprietary) format without a universal backing is ultimately doomed. Toshiba's on borrowed time for getting people back in their camp. Consumers are not going to want to re-buy their libraries again and again while this bickering goes back and forth.