Toshiba’s New BD Attack Vector: Modify DVD for HD Content

J

JackT

Audioholic
Re: "price stagnation": The price being too high for you is not the same thing as "stagnation." Stagnation means that prices are not changing. If I am not mistaken, prices on BD players have been coming down, and at a rate that compares favorably to those of DVD players at the same point.

Re: PS3 PQ: I confess this is just what I have gleaned from "the talk" in the community. Articles like this pretty much sum it up:

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/playstation-3-not-the-best-blu-ray-player-you-can-buy/5380

It could all be just talk with no scientific basis, but some of the PQ observations are pretty specific, so it's hard to discount.
 
A

allargon

Audioholic General
\em for the PS3 so you can have a learning remote take control of the PS3. The PS3 is also not very loud, as noted by a friend of mine it's quieter than his Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player.
I have to ask what you consider loud. The A2 (my A20 seems quieter) is definitely not whisper quiet. However, I've never heard a quiet PS3 (even the 40GB) ones.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I have to ask what you consider loud. The A2 (my A20 seems quieter) is definitely not whisper quiet. However, I've never heard a quiet PS3 (even the 40GB) ones.
You are missing the point, the PS3 and the HD-A2 are in the same room. My friend and I noticed that the HD-A2 was louder (fan noise). Neither is loud enough to be annoying. So can it about the fan noise, it's not flying.:cool:

And below is a picture of Toshiba after loosing to Blu-ray.



Get over your loss you big baby company, geez!
 
A

allargon

Audioholic General
You are missing the point, the PS3 and the HD-A2 are in the same room. My friend and I noticed that the HD-A2 was louder (fan noise). Neither is loud enough to be annoying. So can it about the fan noise, it's not flying.:cool:
Seth, I own a Blu-Ray player -- a quiet one. I think the PS3 is louder than the HD-A2. Most people do. Now, you can call me full of it or whatever. However, anyone that thinks the PS3 isn't loud is deaf according to an AvRant podcast a couple of weeks ago. (Tom and Jay's words--not mine!)
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Seth, I own a Blu-Ray player -- a quiet one. I think the PS3 is louder than the HD-A2. Most people do. Now, you can call me full of it or whatever. However, anyone that thinks the PS3 isn't loud is deaf according to an AvRant podcast a couple of weeks ago. (Tom and Jay's words--not mine!)
So it's a shouting contest you want eh?, well AAAAH AAHHHAHA AAAAAH AAAAAHHH!!!!:D
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
time and time again, when companies fight over standards, the customers are the ones that pay.

Token ring? IPX networks? Betamax? Laserdisc? HDLC?

A (proprietary) format without a universal backing is ultimately doomed. Toshiba's on borrowed time for getting people back in their camp. Consumers are not going to want to re-buy their libraries again and again while this bickering goes back and forth.
I am a bit puzzled why people are always bashing Laserdisc, as it was the best U.S. home video format from the end of 1978 until 1997, when DVD appeared on the market. It was never popular because the discs were always expensive, and the players were always expensive. There are technical reasons for this (in part, it was due to the size of the discs, as a laserdisc player must be vastly more robust than a DVD player). Be that as it may, for people with money, it was a great format for the time. The format remained the best U.S. consumer format longer than DVD did (DVD was the best format for less than 10 years). Perhaps you should instead be complaining that DVD is just a flash in the pan.
 
W

wesiler

Audiophyte
All the other arguments aside, one has to wonder why Toshiba did not make the proper move at the beginning of this little war. Stop ALL standard DVD production and only allow production of HD DVD.... with one catch. With a standard definition B-side.

That would have ensured that all new non-Bluray DVD purchases were of the HD type and consumers of standard DVDs would have had a reason to upgrade instantly. Every new movie they purchased for their old DVD system would prep them for their new. A nice little HD DVD promo video included at the beginning of the standard edition (and pointing out that the disk they were watching was only standard) would be enough to make most people go for the switch.

I guess Toshiba thought that competing with Bluray (and in effect itself for standard DVD) was a mountain they could overcome... Too bad... I love HD DVD... and I am not ashamed to say it... :)
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
All the other arguments aside, one has to wonder why Toshiba did not make the proper move at the beginning of this little war. Stop ALL standard DVD production and only allow production of HD DVD.... with one catch. With a standard definition B-side.

That would have ensured that all new non-Bluray DVD purchases were of the HD type and consumers of standard DVDs would have had a reason to upgrade instantly. Every new movie they purchased for their old DVD system would prep them for their new. A nice little HD DVD promo video included at the beginning of the standard edition (and pointing out that the disk they were watching was only standard) would be enough to make most people go for the switch.

I guess Toshiba thought that competing with Bluray (and in effect itself for standard DVD) was a mountain they could overcome... Too bad... I love HD DVD... and I am not ashamed to say it... :)

Although that would be effective marketing (I have had the same thoughts about hybrid SACDs and CDs), most likely, their licensing agreements would not permit them to require that. Basically, it is unlikely that companies would have ever started making DVDs if Toshiba (or anyone else) had a clause in the contract that would require them to add a yet to be determined format to the discs whenever Toshiba had a whim to require it.
 
L

LoveElectronics

Enthusiast
Toshiba just needs to let it go. They lost. Drop it already. How much money do they have to invest before they realize "It's over. We lost the battle and the war." By the time this new hardware is released I'm sure Sony will already have the 100gb BD's available. And by the end of next year '09 we should be seeing the 250gb out there. Toshiba I hate to tell you, but "YOU LOST".
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
The movie industry felt it essential to withdraw support from HD-DVD to end the format war,so that there would only be one high definition disc format. The movie industry,therefore will not welcome(or support) Toshiba's attempt to launch yet another high definition disc format. And after Toshiba screwed one million consumers by pulling the plug on HD-DVD, the public won't trust Toshiba, if they try to introduce a successor to HD-DVD.
Agreed and just as importantly the retail stores, who are now starting to devote serious retail space to Blu-ray, will also have no desire to store media for one sore loser's new product, nor will they want to store the players.

They will probably tell Toshiba they're just not carrying that line of player.

The studios are DEFINITELY not interested.

No retailers, no CE's (barr one and you know what happened with HD DVD), and no studios = no chance.

Toshiba right now are going from bad to worse in the eyes of most AV enthusiasts.
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
All the other arguments aside, one has to wonder why Toshiba did not make the proper move at the beginning of this little war. Stop ALL standard DVD production and only allow production of HD DVD.... with one catch. With a standard definition B-side.
That's easy - because they don't own any movies.
 
W

wesiler

Audiophyte
That's easy - because they don't own any movies.
LOL - However, they were responsible for pushing their technology...
Had they pushed for this and offered direction (and probably monetary incentive) they could have made it happen.

Had the market been flooded with a single DVD/HD-DVD combo disk in lieu of two standards that confuse the consumer, things would have turned out different. One of the strong point for Blu-ray in terms of marketing is that it is NOT associated directly to standard DVD. Blu-ray sounds different therefor average Joe things "DIFFERENT=NEW=BETTER".

The understanding of average joe is woefully low in terms of HD-DVD vs DVD. Ask a vast portion of average joe users out there if DVD is high definition and they will say yes. I cannot count the number of times I have had to explain to someone that DVD is only 550 lines and HD is 1080 (and all the other things that conversation entails).... A unified disk would have given those kinds of people (currently saving to buy their Bluray at Walmart this year) a reason to make the intellectual step from the meaning of "DVD" to "HD-DVD". A unified disk would have turned a weakness (poor brand separation of DVD vs. HD-DVD) into a strength as users would have had the content at their fingertips. It would have effectively "lead the horse to water".

That was all I was saying... :)
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
LOL - However, they were responsible for pushing their technology...
Had they pushed for this and offered direction (and probably monetary incentive) they could have made it happen.
This is highly unlikely. Toshiba doesn't steer the Titanic on DVD, they are just part of the driving force of DVD. The studios make that ultimate decision, and it is highly unlikely that what you said they 'should have' done, is not in fact, what they were desperately trying - and paying for - other to do.

It is established that they had paid Paramount for exclusivity, which cost the a fair bit, so there's no telling how much it would of cost them to get a studio to drop their singular DVD releases.

Had the market been flooded with a single DVD/HD-DVD combo disk in lieu of two standards that confuse the consumer, things would have turned out different. One of the strong point for Blu-ray in terms of marketing is that it is NOT associated directly to standard DVD. Blu-ray sounds different therefor average Joe things "DIFFERENT=NEW=BETTER".
I agree with this, but only in part. Toshiba would have needed all the studios on board, which was a huge failing on their part. It didn't help that they also were the only CE manufacturer actually producing product... which is what they are doing again here with LSi and SRT.

The understanding of average joe is woefully low in terms of HD-DVD vs DVD. Ask a vast portion of average joe users out there if DVD is high definition and they will say yes. I cannot count the number of times I have had to explain to someone that DVD is only 550 lines and HD is 1080 (and all the other things that conversation entails).... A unified disk would have given those kinds of people (currently saving to buy their Bluray at Walmart this year) a reason to make the intellectual step from the meaning of "DVD" to "HD-DVD". A unified disk would have turned a weakness (poor brand separation of DVD vs. HD-DVD) into a strength as users would have had the content at their fingertips. It would have effectively "lead the horse to water".
Yes, absolutely! But, this was always why HD DVD wasn't going to be a long term product. They couldn't get the support, separation from DVD, and establish the product. Had they somehow secured more studios, it may have turned out vastly differently, but that was not the case.

At the end of the day, nothing - and I mean NOTHING - has changed.

For a CE product to survive it must have studio and CE support. Even one that monopolizes, such as the iPod, is not doing it without full studio support, and a phenomenal amount of CE support. When I walk into a Sony Style store and see them SHOWING iPods connected to their gear instead of their own MP3 Walkman players, then you get that support for iPod is industry wide.

Likewise, Toshiba went with HD DVD, as they appear to be going with SRT, as they aren't even going with LSi... It's their personal format. They have to market it, they have to sell it, and the industry needs some valid reason to buy into it. At least HD DVD was a truly incredible HD format, I just don't get what this new stuff is about other than them desperately trying to hold onto their DVD revenue streams. Since that represents BILLIONS of dollars to them, it seems to make sense for them to protect it any way they can.

It's just up to us (consumers) to realize that our best interests are not at all what Toshiba gives a darn about. Not at all.

That was all I was saying... :)
I get what you're saying, and you should remember that there were also Blu-ray/DVD discs that have been prototyped, but the BDA never made combo discs. It seems that it is trying to establish itself as a true replacement product, as CD was to cassette.

Regardless of what Toshiba does, it won't stop me from enjoying movies in HD on my Blu-ray player AND my HD DVD player. But, I do know what format my new movie releases will have to be on.
 
skads_187

skads_187

Audioholic
So if this new improvement doesn't succeed what will toshiba do next?

They could redo the Floppy disc, or perhaps they could figure out a way to make vhs viable again.
thank you for that statement, i havent laughed so hard in years. It was amazing
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
Had the market been flooded with a single DVD/HD-DVD combo disk in lieu of two standards that confuse the consumer, things would have turned out different.
No studio in the midst of a format war would do that.
Paramount agreed on ONE title, the Star Trek Season 1 issue, because Toshiba footed the bill for everything (according to insiders)

They would not be able to do that for any serious number of titles, given that we also know that yields on the combo discs were far worse than BD50's.
 
mr-ben

mr-ben

Audioholic
Toshiba has shown pre-rendered comparisons of SRT technology in comparison to standard DVD. These have not been real time demonstrations of SRT using an actual DVD, but have been renderings, similar to how video game releases are often put together.
These are the articles I was thinking of - I was under the impression that this was moving video. Either way, it's still "promise-ware"
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/05/09/toshiba_cell_strategy/
http://www.audioholics.com/education/display-formats-technology/toshiba-cell-broadband-video-processor
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/01/11/ces_toshiba_shows_cell/
 
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bobnegi

bobnegi

Audioholic Intern
...after Toshiba screwed one million consumers by pulling the plug on HD-DVD, the public won't trust Toshiba...

I recently(after the demise announcement) bought 2 HD DVD players, I can play HD movies, and my regular movies (upscaled to 1080i) look slightly better (comparable to my Denon DVD-2910 at 480p,which retailed for $1,150 up here in Canada).

the two HD players cost me $250, and I received several free movies. How did I get screwed?
 
skads_187

skads_187

Audioholic
How did I get screwed?
I dont think you got screwed, but if someone purchased say 25-50 hd-dvd movies at regular price back then, that person's screwed on the money they wasted. But it probably wont bother everyone. some ppl dont mind spending that kind of money, I on the other hand would've have been slightly pissed.

but in the end I went Blu, hope its here to stay, but i wont get screwed, cause i would then use my player for gaming :)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I just picked up Beowulf at FS (Ontario) for C$14.99. It is good that Toshiba lost so BR can move on faster. It is also great to be able to pick up HD DVD movies at similar prices to regular DVDs and play them on my C$69 player so I actually don't mind Toshiba doing their thing.
 

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