To Bi-Wire or Not

[Midcow2]

use filters instead

And strangely a high end audiophile will buy an expensive cable because some magazine reviewer told him it would improve his system and, apparently, he has no reason to think otherwise. Yet he will decry the use of an equalizer which will actually fix that 60hz spike. Go figure.

A notch filter would be better to filter out specific frequencies. A bandpass filter would be used to slecte the frequency range.

Expensive cables in most cases are just that, expensive cables, with the same copper as cheap cables.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Let's back up here a little. No, your ears can't compete against a "measuring device". I didn't mean that literally. But your ears can measure (does it sound good) the final sound quality, something a measuring device can't tell you, except on paper only.
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Well, that is a different story from the original typed post Hard to discern what you really meant from it.
Yes, your ears and brains will tell you what you like or dislike but that is not a measurement as that is commonly used

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's called "puffery". Here's a pretty good overall explanation, with examples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffery

"Puffery" depends on our brains being fooled by expectations and implies we don't need any further "proof". This is why white van speakers are still selling like hotcakes.

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Interesting and it has a legal definition
Puffery as a legal term refers to promotional statements and claims that express subjective rather than objective views,

 

[mtrycrafts]

Or, would I be charged a restocking fee if I mistakenly purchased $2,000.00 wire for 100Hz, instead of 60Hz, and have to return it?

Yes, exactly and, another one when the next cable is in actuality was a fix for a 1kHz issue and on it goes

 

[mtrycrafts]

. Go figure.

That is easy. Convincing him of the answer is impossible.

 

[pearsall001]

That's marketing babble. In fact NAD components are competently designed and do provide musical transparency on a par with products from other companies. I can't believe you try to make a case by quoting marketing babble.

Our ears are connected to our brains so actually it is our brains that have the final say about how something sounds to us. The ears are simply the vehicle for collecting the waves. Our brains interpret what we hear with all the biases and preferences we have developed. It is possible to remove bias from hearing and when we do that, then we discover how things really sound, not just how they sound to us.

Marketing...for sure, but backed up by honesty, integrity & a pretty darn good lineup of quality gear.

Babble...not in this application.

I don't know, I've been quite happy with how my ear/brain combination has steered me into buying my gear. I think I'll stick with what works & sounds pleasing to me. No need for me to over analyse things. If it sounds good...then it sounds good.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
I don't know, I've been quite happy with how my ear/brain combination has steered me into buying my gear. .

That is all that matters in the end.

 

[fmw]

Marketing...for sure, but backed up by honesty, integrity & a pretty darn good lineup of quality gear.

Babble...not in this application.

I don't know, I've been quite happy with how my ear/brain combination has steered me into buying my gear. I think I'll stick with what works & sounds pleasing to me. No need for me to over analyse things. If it sounds good...then it sounds good.

The high end audio industry certainly appreciates that sentiment. They would be out of business without it.

 

[Midcow2]

And just like buying a car ...

The high end audio industry certainly appreciates that sentiment. They would be out of business without it.

Much of the advertising on high-end ( also Bose ) is reviewed after the purchase to help dissuade "buyers remorse".

ARRG ... I spent all this money ... I made the right choice didn't I ....
YES YOU DID
... does it sound as good as I thought
YES IT SOUNDS EXCELLENT
.... will it do everything i wanted it to do ? ....
YES IT WILL DO EVERTHING
... YOU MADE AN EXCELLENT CHOICE AND ALL THE MONEY YOU SPENT IS JUSTIFIED.

 

[PENG]

I don't know, I've been quite happy with how my ear/brain combination has steered me into buying my gear. I think I'll stick with what works & sounds pleasing to me. No need for me to over analyse things. If it sounds good...then it sounds good.

That's good for you, absolutely nothing wrong as long as your goal is to buy gear that play things the way you like it, not the way the original source signal is supposed to sound.

For those who want to see proof that an amp is reproducing a signal faithfully after amplifying it, they would have to rely on all sorts of measurements, not their ears/brains. Even piano tuners have to use tuning forks to supplement their talented/trained ears/brains.

 

[pearsall001]

That's good for you, absolutely nothing wrong as long as your goal is to buy gear that play things the way you like it, not the way the original source signal is supposed to sound.

For those who want to see proof that an amp is reproducing a signal faithfully after amplifying it, they would have to rely on all sorts of measurements, not their ears/brains. Even piano tuners have to use tuning forks to supplement their talented/trained ears/brains.

Now what do you do when your "measurements" test the gear to be absolutely perfect in all accounts & that it just sounds superb (according to the machine of cource)...but to you it sounds like poo??? Live with it because the "measurements" say so, or toss out all machine generated specs & let your ear/brain do the testing for you. Like I said...if it sounds good...it sounds good. Who cares what the specs say (although they are important to a certain point).

I think a lot of guys are more interested in the gear than actually sitting down & really listing to some toe tapping music. Maybe there's a machine that can test for a toe tapping response.

 

[zhimbo]

Now what do you do when your "measurements" test the gear to be absolutely perfect in all accounts & that it just sounds superb (according to the machine of cource)...but to you it sounds like poo???

And I say that one cannot find two amplifiers (as per PENG's example) that measure the same on all the usual factors, but sound different in a blind test. (but I'll gladly consider any relevant evidence).

Now, that may or may not be what you're talking about. If instead, you mean some people prefer non-accurate sound (e.g. "warm" harmonic distortion), well, sure. No argument there.

But all that seems a little off-topic on this thread. And already answered in PENG's post, too.

 

[Rickster71]

Now what do you do when your "measurements" test the gear to be absolutely perfect in all accounts & that it just sounds superb (according to the machine of cource)...but to you it sounds like poo???

I wouldn't buy those speakers.

 

[PENG]

Now what do you do when your "measurements" test the gear to be absolutely perfect in all accounts & that it just sounds superb (according to the machine of cource)...but to you it sounds like poo??? Live with it because the "measurements" say so, or toss out all machine generated specs & let your ear/brain do the testing for you. Like I said...if it sounds good...it sounds good. Who cares what the specs say (although they are important to a certain point).

You asked the wrong person. If the gear is tested to be absolutely perfect in all acounts then it will sound close to (relatively speaking) the real thing. I like the sound of the real thing so there is no chance it will sound like "poo" to me. If it did sound like "poo" to me then I may as well don't go to concert and stop listening to live music altogether. By the way, I have no doubt your beloved T773 will test well by any lab. As such, in a DBT session with comparable Denon, Pioneer, yamaha, Arcam etc., normal human ears/brains will not be able to pick it out. To pick it out from the crowd you would have to resort to measuring equipment.

 

[mtrycrafts]

To pick it out from the crowd you would have to resort to measuring equipment.

Yes, you would have to use your eyes and see it

 

[pearsall001]

You asked the wrong person. If the gear is tested to be absolutely perfect in all acounts then it will sound close to (relatively speaking) the real thing. I like the sound of the real thing so there is no chance it will sound like "poo" to me. If it did sound like "poo" to me then I may as well don't go to concert and stop listening to live music altogether. By the way, I have no doubt your beloved T773 will test well by any lab. As such, in a DBT session with comparable Denon, Pioneer, yamaha, Arcam etc., normal human ears/brains will not be able to pick it out. To pick it out from the crowd you would have to resort to measuring equipment.

And your point is????

 

[PENG]

And your point is????

That you asked a question that's hard for me to answer but out of respect (seriously I probably read all your posts) I tried anyway. Also my point, your T773 (if I remember correctly that’s what you have) bound to have good lab measurements that are consistent with its high performance rating given by various audio magazines. And I repeat, live concert music sounds best to me (personally) regardless of whether people would characterize live music as warm, cold, bright, or whatever. My goal is to hear my music as closed to how it sounds 'live' so I only buy sound equipment that has among the best specifications, not those that received praise by reviewers who only use their ears/brains, or eyes as mtrycrafts put it. That being said, most reviews I rely on convey both hearing impressions and lab measurements, and I do prefer reviews that provide both measurements and reviewer's hearing impressions. I hope this clarifies my points.

 

[pearsall001]

That you asked a question that's hard for me to answer but out of respect (seriously I probably read all your posts) I tried anyway. Also my point, your T773 (if I remember correctly that’s what you have) bound to have good lab measurements that are consistent with its high performance rating given by various audio magazines. And I repeat, live concert music sounds best to me (personally) regardless of whether people would characterize live music as warm, cold, bright, or whatever. My goal is to hear my music as closed to how it sounds 'live' so I only buy sound equipment that has among the best specifications, not those that received praise by reviewers who only use their ears/brains, or eyes as mtrycrafts put it. That being said, most reviews I rely on convey both hearing impressions and lab measurements, and I do prefer reviews that provide both measurements and reviewer's hearing impressions. I hope this clarifies my points.

Yes indeed, your response is very well received. Trying to duplicate a live performance is the ideal that we all strive for (within our budget of course). Even though spending a whole lot more money doesn't always equate to better sound quality.

I'm with you on the proper procedure in which we both make our purchases. Reading about the lab measurements, a reviewers feedback on both listening critique & that the specs are indeed as claimed by the manuf., & finally getting your own ears on the piece in your own system is the final & most convincing test as to whether or not you make the purchase. If these procedures are followed I strongly believe that you will always make a wise choice in what suits your needs & gets us as close as duplicating a live performance as possible. Happy listening.

And yes, I have a NAD T773 avr which is a stellar piece. It specs out very well, was very well reviewed & I liked the way it performed in my system.

 

[JAMS]

A Seperate Intermodulation What?

Ok im confused as ive ever hope to be now!
Maybe logic will work here,so if you bi-wire a 3-way spkr then the woofers wired on a seperate binding post use 80% of power and the mid-range and tweeter wired too the 2nd set of binding post use the other 20% say or about, all being fed by the amps pair of binding post does not allow any more amp power to either of the tweeters or midrange or the power hungry woofers right ?
But a better bigger wire does right?
Im considering putting my jumper clips back on my 3-way infinity 50s and leaving my 2 pair of 16ga wire right where it is,hows that sound!
A klipsch owner highly recommened bi-wire as he said it was a big difference so i tried it and I couldnt tell the difference!
But if bi-wiring bypasses the x/overs, then that would cause midrange and tweeter drivers to get frequencies they cant handle game over!
OK,im a confused novice but i can see bi-wiring could help in high wattage being used!

Follow me Novice logic at work:At say 85watts over time the drivers voice coils temp warms up and resistance increases and typically the woofers using more power heat up quicker than a ferro cooled tweeter,so now the woofers need more power and begin to draw more power like the motor it is,now i can imagine a point where the reserve amp power runs out on peaks and the tweeter-midrange dominate the sound ,and the bass lacks punch and definetion, so bi-wiring isnt helping because the amp is doing all it can!!
However if you dont go deaf and your amp has massive reserves of power then i can see where great spkr wire is critcal ,and bi-wiring isnt a practical option, except for making sure your tweeters get blown to bits before your totally deaf!
So in retrospect i think i will put my binding post clips back on and not worry about BI-WIRING . I do have a imagination dont i? I just get confused alot and i dont need any help doing that thank you! And to PEARSALL001,I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE BLIND FOLDED BETWEEN THE NAD T765 AND A THX CERTIFIED PIONEER 7.1 SOON AS THE MUSIC STARTS!

 

[highfigh]

<font color='#000000'>I am quite confuse on the benefits (if any) of bi-wiring. &nbsp;There are lots of conflicting information (and theory) on this subject.

Websites sponsored by cable manufacturer states that bi-wiring is the greatest thing since slice bread, and a good alternative to bi-amping. &nbsp;Good way of promoting sales!

Other independent websites state that there are no benefits if you are using good quality wire with a heavy guage of 12 or lower.

Before I invest $$$ into another set of wires, can you please share your experience with bi-wiring?</font>

Knock yourself out. Borrow some extra wire and try it to find out if it makes any difference. 12 ga is overkill for most applications unless the speakers are really far from the amp, like 100 feet. Less than 60', 16 ga is actually fine unless you have speakers that present a difficult load to the amp and the amp it putting out a lot of power. 100W into 8 Ohms is only 28.3 Volts and with I=E/R, it's only about 3.5 Amps. No big stress test for the wire, really.